Pittsburgh college graduates choosing to stay in city in increasing numbers

[balistpgh]

All I need to say is, in regards to CMU:

Intel

Apple

Google

All companies that are expanding/establishing a base in Pittsburgh because of CMU.

That is quite a taxable base.

Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

[Evergrey]

I agree completely with balistpgh...

I think one big edge Pittsburgh has over say... Cleveland... is its world-renowned universities... Pitt/CMU/Duquesne vs. Cleveland State/Case Western is a huge advantage.

Pittsburgh is extremely lucky to have the collection of educational institutions it has... these universities have already paid great dividends for Pittsburgh's economy... without the universities during the steel collapse... the city may have fell apart. Pitt, CMU, Duquesne, etc will be the leading lights for Pittsburgh's continual emergence as a great place to live and work.

[TheGerbil]

I don't think anyone disagrees that the universities have been great for the city. And I for one am not suggesting they start paying property taxes. But in certain ways they are a burden on the city, too. That is a lot of infrastucture to support. Blocks and blocks of Oakland are Pitt-owned and therefore no property tax is paid on them. Do I blame Pitt? No. Do I want them to leave? Absolutely not.

But I do think it's a real issue. As I said, I think the best answer is consolidation.

[Inkdaub]

Well I wasn't a student but I spent about eight months or so in PGH with no car and I walked all over the place and never had any problems or felt out of place at all. Maybe it's that I prefer the pedestrian lifestyle and am used to it but I didn't think twice about walking around pretty much anywhere in PGH that I could reach. I lived in...either Greenpoint or Greenfield, the one that is close by Squirell Hill across from the park area. Nantasket street. I walked all over Squirell Hill, Oakland, Shadyside, Downtown, the Strip, The Southside and the area around the stadiums and the Mexican War Streets. I will say that my favorite area was Oakland, though.

It doesn't surprise me that students are staying in PGH...the place is great. I remember walking around and thinking that soon this city will be rediscovered and the masses will come and the prices will go up. It's a beautiful spot. The Mexican War Streets were pretty cool with all the cool buildings and the prices...wow...dirt cheep. I remember looking at a really great giant apartment in Oakland that waa also dirt cheep. It's not a bad gig to have a cool place in a cool hood in a cool city that you can easily afford.

[blueblackcat]

I think there are tax problems involved with having a lot of non-profits in the city, but if we are to blame anyone for it, it should be the exploitative suburbs. They lure city workers away from the core and contribute nothing to the taxes that maintain the infastructure that those commuters use up.

The biggest space-hoggers such as Pitt, CMU, UPMC, are all dependant on the city in order to be the economic engines that they are. It's not their "fault" that they are nonprofits, and not their fault that every single one of them relies on the high density of a city to be able to serve the hundreds of thosuands of people that take part in those institutions. It's the city politicians' fault for not being able to consolidate and tame the vast unregulated suburban sprawl. The suburbs literally suck the economic life out of our region where otherwise we could be reaping in vast wealth from efficiencies of scale and supporting the economic core with an equitable tax structure.

Other than that, I disagree that it is a burden at all to the city to have the big non-profits. Look at the fundraising and grant money coming in to UPMC just for cancer research alone. This is all in one way or another money that is going into the pockets of everyone from doctors to construction workers who have jobs within the city. Pitt has it's own police force that replaces the city police department for everyone in the community, not just for Pitt. We could go on and on, but the idea is that in reality, the nonprofits give back MUCH more to the city than they take from it. That is the reality, even if the vast majority of high paying jobs that Pittsburgh supports, whether for profit or not for profit, go to commuters who don't pay their fair share of taxes.

As far as college kids being spoiled, I really need to take a stab at it too. I know so many amazing young people who are struggling to get through college, no matter where they go. Its to the point where professors practically assume that most of the class is holding down a job or an internship as their means to make up the shortfalls in financial aid. Every professor I had since I came home from Iraq has offered to re-schedual mid-terms and finals to any student who can't get out of work that day. Kids go through college working the whole time and finish with nothing, not even the guarantee of a job, and a huge college debt. And these are the educated people who are now struggling to stay in the city they love and make it a better place. I have friends with an associate's or less who work plush blue collar union jobs and they drive around in brand new cars and are building a brand new house in the suburbs, while their "spoiled" counterparts are pooling together and sharing all their resources like the one person who might actually have a 15 year old car who can take everyone grocery shopping. I have personally changed my own mufflers and belts because I can't afford a mechanic, for example. I'm a computer programmer. My friends who are steelworkers are talking about getting straight pipes and lifts put onto their brand new F150's to make them look or sound "better." I realy don't care to hear that some college kids are spoiled. Everyone knows there are some. Their parents are rich. Some people are rich. There will always be rich kids until the day rich people stop procreating. But take two people who have the same of everything, and the one who goes to college is not taking the easy way out. I really think that both college students and military members are both in the same boat in terms of how they get shafted and go through so much to contribute to society but never truly get compnsated for the personal sacrifices that they make.

And the thing is, when all these college students' finally have their careers pick up off the ground, they are the ones who will be the economic source of all other jobs in the region. A single engineer could be responsible for several hundred assembly line jobs, or a small team of programmers might be responsible for a company being able to afford health insurance for all of those hard working blue collar employees. Even if that kid is a spoiled brat whose daddy bought him a beemer his freshman year, chances are that it takes just one in a thousand for kids like that to go on and more than make up to society for the things they get that they "don't deserve."

[balistpgh]

Well said, blueblack cat.

You articulated the position much better than I was.

[PghUSA]

Well I wasn't a student but I spent about eight months or so in PGH with no car and I walked all over the place and never had any problems or felt out of place at all. Maybe it's that I prefer the pedestrian lifestyle and am used to it but I didn't think twice about walking around pretty much anywhere in PGH that I could reach. I lived in...either Greenpoint or Greenfield, the one that is close by Squirell Hill across from the park area. Nantasket street. I walked all over Squirell Hill, Oakland, Shadyside, Downtown, the Strip, The Southside and the area around the stadiums and the Mexican War Streets. I will say that my favorite area was Oakland, though.

It doesn't surprise me that students are staying in PGH...the place is great. I remember walking around and thinking that soon this city will be rediscovered and the masses will come and the prices will go up. It's a beautiful spot. The Mexican War Streets were pretty cool with all the cool buildings and the prices...wow...dirt cheep. I remember looking at a really great giant apartment in Oakland that waa also dirt cheep. It's not a bad gig to have a cool place in a cool hood in a cool city that you can easily afford.

Inkdaub, great to hear about your experiences in Pittsburgh. Glad to hear more and more are taking the time to discover Pittsburgh!

[PghUSA]

Balist and Blueblack, some great points there, before we get too carried away with this "spoiled students" image I presented, I did it as a means to an end, my complaint with the universities is not with the student body in as much as it is with the administration and professors (see Richard Florida, the cadre of professors and administrators who dumped Gottfried in '89, etc. etc.). There are indeed many spoiled students, more so at the private universities then Pitt but even there. The Universities do enable this in many many ways, and that is were I have a gripe.

Blueblack, I do like your example about having exams resch. but try getting that privilege running your own business or even working mid-management for a private concern. Being a student is not carefree or the easy life, but it is much much simpler and insulated then "realworld". My larger point in all this is NOT to create a class-war discussion about rich and poor kids or unversity students and working stiffs but to demonstrate that when kids travel hundreds or thousands of miles to a new city such as Pittsburgh, get homesick, buy comfort items, feel remiss to stray to far from campus (there would be a term used for people like that in some neighborhoods of this city and spoiled is putting it gently), and the thing of it is those kids are not to blame, it's very natural for them to revert to that type of insular to campus life, and in ways--especially at first--healthy as well.

My complaint from the begining though was that the majority of administrators and professors encourage and enable that type of crutch for too long. Not all, but far too many "leaders" of these young students have a negative view of the city around them, and an arrogant view of how self-important the institution the city gave birth to is. Some professors have changed this, not enough yet IMHO.

[Inkdaub]

Also...Pitt showed me more snow than I've ever seen in my life. The locals said it wasn't a heavy winter but it was the heaviest I've ever seen. Also the food is good. Not just the famous places but all of it...the chains, whatever...it all was good. Another thing is that I was totally tripped out when the local guys I was staying with told me the US Steel tower had three sides instead of four.

[PghUSA]

^^lol yes from the east the US Steel Tower looks like a big box, good thing it is triangulated from the west though, that sq. footage is absolutely massive I think it was Blueblack a few months ago that gave the stats, one of the largest skyscrapers in the world in sq. footage, making it boxed would have added even more.

[facilities man]

^^lol yes from the east the US Steel Tower looks like a big box, good thing it is triangulated from the west though, that sq. footage is absolutely massive I think it was Blueblack a few months ago that gave the stats, one of the largest skyscrapers in the world in sq. footage, making it boxed would have added even more.

I saw a show on discovery about large buildings, not just tall but square footage, I think it was called mega buildings. The USX building was mentioned, but I can't remember the square footage. I think it was 1.2 million. Very large, and actually one of the ten largest office buildings in the country when it was built.

[TheGerbil]

I think there are tax problems involved with having a lot of non-profits in the city, but if we are to blame anyone for it, it should be the exploitative suburbs. They lure city workers away from the core and contribute nothing to the taxes that maintain the infastructure that those commuters use up.

The biggest space-hoggers such as Pitt, CMU, UPMC, are all dependant on the city in order to be the economic engines that they are. It's not their "fault" that they are nonprofits, and not their fault that every single one of them relies on the high density of a city to be able to serve the hundreds of thosuands of people that take part in those institutions. It's the city politicians' fault for not being able to consolidate and tame the vast unregulated suburban sprawl. The suburbs literally suck the economic life out of our region where otherwise we could be reaping in vast wealth from efficiencies of scale and supporting the economic core with an equitable tax structure.

I for one don't blame the nonprofits. I totally agree that the suburbs are sucking us dry. It IS a burden having to support all these nonprofits with minimal help from the suburbs, but I definitely don't blame the nonprofits for that. If I ever seemed to imply that I did, I didn't mean to. (Maybe you weren't really talking to me though?)

But I don't agree with placing any blame on the city politicians for not consolidating. They haven't got that power.

[balistpgh]

PghUsa,

While you state that you don't want this to be class warfare type of discussion, your comments betray you. You continue to complain about the "spoiled" students and the administrators who coddle them. Also, I don't think you can provide any data that state private university students are any more "spoiled" than public university students. You need to start seeing them as members of the Pittsburgh community and to stop placing a wall between you and them. I think more of the issue is that members of the Pittsburgh community probably feel like you do and show suspicion and resentment towards these students. If I flew thousands of miles and landed in a foreign city and the residents resented me, I sure as he*l ain't going to go explore and walk around the city.

In short, you perpetuate the problem. This is a vicious circle which I think you should let go off immediately.

[PghUSA]

Balist, I see your point, maybe I was wrong to use "spoiled" but the question I ask myself is no matter how great life is for me now, would I trade it to go back and be a sophomore in college? I'd answer yes, and I'll readily admit to my own "spoiled" ways when I was 19, waking up some days at noon, walking around campus in my bed clothes, skipping a class or two a semester if things didn't turn out right, all things that in the work world you'd get slammed for fast, and I was one on aid and 'ships, worked 2 parttimes etc. (one on campus). Fact is most of us wouldn't mind staying 19 and being in an environment that although living on the edge, has everyone around you being paid to see that you succeed in some way. Try finding that in your average office. Enough of the personal side though.

I think your trepidation about the use of the term is especially relevant for Pittsburgh, there is a feeling out there, especially in the mill towns and bluecollar pensioners that those Universities are somehow less then they are because of the "spoiled" label. I won't be a party to perpetuating that. The verdict IMHO though comes down to this, despite what some uninformed yinzer collecting a pension from LTV might misrepresent about the universities, he or she has a legit beef that the city is allowing them to gobble up more and more taxable property, that CMU didn't try harder to keep Lycos in town, and that some (not all) administrators and professors have chosen to forget all but a few exclusive corners of the city, along with its problems and opportunities.

I would love nothing more then for the universities and the community to find tons of common ground and ways to partner, neither is here for the express purpose of helping the other, but I think the answer to your "vicious cycle" is an embrace of the city by the universites and vice versa. This would include a larger role in either A) helping the city consolidate or B ) a larger financial contribution to the city especially for taxable land recently aquired off the rolls.

I agree the "spoiled" references don't help, but I was never really offened by them, heck I got to sleep in 4 more hours then the poor guy spouting it, and usually . . . well nevermind, can't go back to the good ole days now can we.