Tallahassee's Downtown is Doomed.

[TD]

Im very ticked off. Symphony has been cancelled according to people on this board (even though their website is still up).

Also if you guys try going to CollegeParkCommons.com the website does not exist anymore.... yay 2 downtown projects cancelled, whats next?

[poonther]

It's the nature of the beast that is development. Projects are scrapped all the time in every city in response to market factors and what not. While I'm sad to see these projects not go forward, this hardly means that our downtown is doomed especially since we still have so much going on in the downtown area plus these projects are on what I consider to be the edges of downtown anyway.

Doomed is what I'd say is a childish highly dramatic conclusion on your part.

[TD]

what do we have? the tennyson, plaza tower, and tallahassee center, thats 3, not near the 10 supposedly proposed

[stjoe]

I don't consider either really downtown myself. Although downtown could grow to that point. Granted I am only talk 1-3 block difference.

Tally will be just fine. I love Tally for what it is, not for high rise condos. If they were so great, South Florida would be the greatest place in the world. Many in Tally move here to avoid that.

FYI, I hear the Symphony is still going to be built, just a lot cheaper version of the original. Personally I would rather the Symphony die and keep the Commons. The market place will decide.

[goodbye]

I honestly feel your pain, everyone. My home, Greenville, SC, is currently in the "wait and see" stage for new high-rises as well. We've had a list of several proposed towers for well over a year now, but as of yet, no spade has turned dirt for any of them. There is promise for at least three of them, but no definitive deadlines have been set since the original estimates vanished months ago. I really hope downtown Tallahassee will see a few of its proposed towers rise into the skyline soon. It is important for every city's local pride as well as regional and national recognition. I hope There will be enough small development to keep the interest alive until these major pieces can be set into place.

Having said that, I also agree with stjoe regarding the towers not being a total necessity toward a city's success. One only needs to look at the rebirth of downtown Greenville to understand what I am talking about. High-rises have their place downtown, but the heartbeat of a vibrant city is at the street-level, where elements of quality living are on a human scale and not dominating. What really makes us fall in love with a place is the experiences we have with other local residents and visitors on the streets, in the shops, restaurants, galleries, bars, parks, and other entertainment venues - rarely found within the upper floors of an office or condo tower.

[EbonyGardens]

So all that construction was for nothing.

[poonther]

I honestly feel your pain, everyone. My home, Greenville, SC, is currently in the "wait and see" stage for new high-rises as well. We've had a list of several proposed towers for well over a year now, but as of yet, no spade has turned dirt for any of them. There is promise for at least three of them, but no definitive deadlines have been set since the original estimates vanished months ago. I really hope downtown Tallahassee will see a few of its proposed towers rise into the skyline soon. It is important for every city's local pride as well as regional and national recognition. I hope There will be enough small development to keep the interest alive until these major pieces can be set into place.

Sounds like Tally is fairing a little better than G'ville, SC in the high-rise department b/c we've had 3 proposed towers rise. Two of them will be finished very soon and hopefully all three will be bring some new retail/restaurants to the downtown. So it ain't all bad!

[goodbye]

Not bad at all! I am thrilled with this type of progress, as long as it is properly developed to include plenty of street-level activity. Greenville has not seen a new high-rise since 1999, so we are desperate. The many plans which have been revealed have caused many of us to look like kids waiting for candy. Thankfully, Greenville is known more for its street-level pedestrian activity than its high-rises. I'm glad to see other small cities have acheived recent success in the high-rise department though. Go Tally!

[cityboy05]

Im very ticked off. Symphony has been cancelled according to people on this board (even though their website is still up).

Also if you guys try going to CollegeParkCommons.com the website does not exist anymore.... yay 2 downtown projects cancelled, whats next?

Don't worry be happy.

This is a little old but: http://www.k2urbancorp.com/about/news_20060129.shtml

it will make you happy.

[Florida]

Did we really need to start a new thread for something like this? Its kinda what the Tally-Sheet or the particular project thread is for. That said, I'd say our downtown is progressing quite nicely under the given circumstances.

Where many cities see proposal after proposal postponed indefinately, we continue to see work finish on The Tennyson, The Tallahassee Center, Plaza Tower (all of which Mixed Use Retail/Restaurant/Condo Buildings) The Marriott Hotel at Gaines Street, The Cloisters in the All Saints District, and the new Conversion Project on Adams. Meanwhile we continue to wait for proposals such as the Marriott Convention Hotel which is nearly 10 yrs old, The Symphony Condominium (which as someone has already stated may be back on the drawing board to make units more affordable) and the recently proposed development on the Floridan Block which could see shovels by the end of the year.

Patience is so key in property development. No one is more frustrated with the delay than the developers who must actually spend their own money. And site work doesn't always begin the day after a project is proposed, sometimes it takes a number of months and even years before we see soil turned.

[Relient J]

^ I'm very happy to hear that The Symphony may yet rise. Thanks TaureanJ and stjoe for that update!

[TD]

Hmm cool article today, it says developers and the performing arts center are competing for land at the corner of duval and gaines where the johns building is...... I say let the developers have it.... we cans stick the performing arts center anywhere,

[Florida]

I second that TD. Developers are willing to move forward in a speedy manner, have their own money, and are likely to produce a highly visable quality project before our sluggish Performing Arts Center Committee. Again, its as if they have to reinvent the wheel or something.

I had a talk with my source about this the other day and it sounds like whatever would be put where John's Building is, would be high profile.

[poonther]

I'd have to reserve judgement on this until we see the proposal for the developer's project. While I believe the developer could bring their project to life faster than the PAC, that's not always the case. I would not want us to pass on this land for the PAC and then have it sit for years waiting on the developer to get funding etc.

The article stated the PAC is 6 years away from being built. Of course w/anything governmental, I times that by 2..so we are looking at a PAC not being available until 2018. That's way too long to wait, way too long!

On this note, look what Montgomery, AL is getting:

Montgomery

We should be ashamed of ourselves to let Montgomery, a city and metro area exactly our size and also a state capital, beat us to something like this. No offense to Montgomery but it's not nearly as cool and beautiful as Tally, but now downtown they'll have a new convention center, convention hotel and PAC in addition to their already built downtown amphitheatre and minor league baseball stadium. All this and they are closer to bigger cities w/these type of amenities (B'ham and ATL) than we are to Jax. Some how when I read this article it makes me feel that we better shape up or we are gonna be left behind.

[Tallaman]

I think you gotta' remember that in Alabama, except for B'ham, Montgomery is the only show in town. In Florida, Tallahassee is a regional leader, but the state has many much larger metro areas that draw the attention of things like minor league baseball first. Aside from that, Tallahassee also has two major universities to provide facilites and functions like fine arts productions.

That said, this may also be a legitimate reflection on this area's local political will and priorities.

[stjoe]

some thoughts...

*The PAC could of been built sooner if the COT and FSU worked together on this. Ignore the who is wrong here. FSU had to return about $5 Million in donation for a PAC because there was a deadline attached to it. If the two had worked together, it would of been less expensive for each party but a great product built quicker. This was a shame. But a by product of two groups who no longer work together. Considering everything, that might be a good thing now.

*Getting built quicker doesnt' mean BETTER. If the developer is putting up an ABC liquor would that be better? Of course not. I think some folks are so lazer focused on building Tally up .....and quickly, they forget quality, master planning, etc.

[poonther]

I think you gotta' remember that in Alabama, except for B'ham, Montgomery is the only show in town. In Florida, Tallahassee is a regional leader, but the state has many much larger metro areas that draw the attention of things like minor league baseball first. Aside from that, Tallahassee also has two major universities to provide facilities and functions like fine arts productions.

That said, this may also be a legitimate reflection on this area's local political will and priorities.

I agree w/you on the fact that Tally has 2 major universities that bring in fine arts productions, but then again the venues to see them are too small and not really great for music/concerts (Ruby Diamond.)

As for Montgomery being the second and only other game in Bama, not true. Huntsville metro and Mobile metro (especially when you combine it w/P'cola and Biloxi) are way bigger in size, plus state lines aside the monster that is Atlanta is only an easy 2 hours away from them.

I think one big factor is that the hotel is being built by the private sector. I think this developer is the same guy that brought AL the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail and facilities.

[poonther]

*Getting built quicker doesnt' mean BETTER. If the developer is putting up an ABC liquor would that be better? Of course not. I think some folks are so lazer focused on building Tally up .....and quickly, they forget quality, master planning, etc.

Of course everyone wants quality development, that's a given!...I think But waiting a lifetime for a convention hotel and a PAC in our city's case has NOTHING to do w/quality master planning. They can hide behind that excuse, but it ain't what's behind the delay w/these two projects.

And speaking of waiting around, taking our time for fine quality master planning....look where that got us w/Gaines Street. I know from your posts SJ how much you loved waiting around for that fine quality master planned motel going up along w/ the new one way Gaines.

[EbonyGardens]

I'd have to reserve judgement on this until we see the proposal for the developer's project. While I believe the developer could bring their project to life faster than the PAC, that's not always the case. I would not want us to pass on this land for the PAC and then have it sit for years waiting on the developer to get funding etc.

The article stated the PAC is 6 years away from being built. Of course w/anything governmental, I times that by 2..so we are looking at a PAC not being available until 2018. That's way too long to wait, way too long!

On this note, look what Montgomery, AL is getting:

Montgomery

We should be ashamed of ourselves to let Montgomery, a city and metro area exactly our size and also a state capital, beat us to something like this. No offense to Montgomery but it's not nearly as cool and beautiful as Tally, but now downtown they'll have a new convention center, convention hotel and PAC in addition to their already built downtown amphitheatre and minor league baseball stadium. All this and they are closer to bigger cities w/these type of amenities (B'ham and ATL) than we are to Jax. Some how when I read this article it makes me feel that we better shape up or we are gonna be left behind.

Amen That's what I'm saying. Tallahassee is always the last to get anything good. Quality development is good, but sometimes you have to put your petal to the medal and get going.

[Sandman]

I don't consider either really downtown myself. Although downtown could grow to that point. Granted I am only talk 1-3 block difference.

Tally will be just fine. I love Tally for what it is, not for high rise condos. If they were so great, South Florida would be the greatest place in the world. Many in Tally move here to avoid that.

FYI, I hear the Symphony is still going to be built, just a lot cheaper version of the original. Personally I would rather the Symphony die and keep the Commons. The market place will decide.

College Park Commons is being redesigned. No parking garage. No retail or commercial. Fewer residential units (cheaper/smaller). It will now be (3) 4 story buildings with surface parking only. Market conditions cant handle the price point.

[TD]

Garbage..... If its lower than 10 stories i dont want it.

[Florida]

I think the 3 4-Story buildings could be affective in brining back College Avenue. This might be attractive linking downtown to FSU.

Still I think the plans for College Park Commons as previously proposed should be used elsewhere downtown.

Welcome To UrbanPlanet-Tallahassee Sandman!!!

Thanks for the good update!!

[seminole]

I thought the original design for the College Park project was too aggressive anyway. Tallahassee is just not ready for too many of those types of developments, but the towering structures will come eventually.

Even though the project is scaled down it will still function as a smaller piece too a larger puzzle, and that is to add critical mass to our urban core. Critical mass will encourage more businesses locate in the downtown and who knows, maybe one day Tallahasee will develop a CBD (Central Business District) of its own. A CBD is what Tally needs to develop a true "skyline", although I am still impress with the Kleman Tower and the Tennyson.

[csmurphy8885]

well articulated.... I agree. I see the impact of a beatuiful 4 story on the density streetlevel feel on areas on campus, and around the west side where i live. It will work. Plus, there are other lots in the area which might sprout up a better building a lil closer to the DT core, rather than down the hill.

[Sandman]

The Village project by ADAR has been scraped, but symphony may be saved. they are looking at selling it off to another developer.