Gentrification

[Cotuit]

Did anyone imagine that with a project of this magnitude and complexity that all stake holders would be giving each other flowers, holding hands, and singing kumbaya at this point in the process?

This us and them sh!t is pretty pathetic though. Was George Bush in the room by any chance?

[Carter711]

Aren't we supposed to strive for diversity in our neighborhoods, particularly in incomes?

Olneyville has a poverty rate of 42 percent. It's the most impoverished neighborhood in the city, maybe the entire state. If there's one area that could use a residential development geared towards wealthier people, isn't it Olneyville?

[damus]

Aren't we supposed to strive for diversity in our neighborhoods, particularly in incomes?

Olneyville has a poverty rate of 42 percent. It's the most impoverished neighborhood in the city, maybe the entire state. If there's one area that could use a residential development geared towards wealthier people, isn't it Olneyville?

It kinda gets me thinking... people beotching about lack of low income housing being pushed out by the yuppies. At the same time, what person who's paying for upper middle class housing wants to live in a ghetto? They seem to be driving each other away.

[brick]

It kinda gets me thinking... people beotching about lack of low income housing being pushed out by the yuppies. At the same time, what person who's paying for upper middle class housing wants to live in a ghetto? They seem to be driving each other away.

This is the biggest question of gentrification.

I think one thing that would help the whole deal is if all Providence residents would have more respect for their neighborhoods. Less graffiti, less trash. Honestly I could care less what the income level of my neighbors is. But if they throw stuff on the street and in my yard, if they tag the side of my house (look at all the nice houses around Thayer), if they blare music at 3 in the morning...I don't want to live with them. Sadly, the stereotype is that these behaviors belong to the lower income classes. What does seem to be true without the use of a stereotype is that if there is a neighborhood which has turned into something of a ghetto, this behavior propogates. That's the broken glass theory or whatever it's called.

[alobswitt]

Hey All,

Not sure why everyone is so surprised about the objections to this project. There are major flaws in the ways that SBER conducts itself.

I agree with Jen, the holes in the developers proposal were as big as the holes they want to dig. These developments are no longer happening in isolation. Why has no one mentioned that SBER will own a large part of the Promenade District pretty much all the way from Dean St to Olneyville Square? And who knows what else they have brewing? They need to start talking about the bigger picture.

I am so tired of going to planning meetings and hearing the developers wax and wane about "trying" to make 20% transparant surfaces, 10% of this or that, and hoping to meet the required tree coverage but admitting that it will be "difficult". These people are proposing to invest nearly half a billion dollars in this city. Have some pride and ingenuity for christ's sake!

I know, I know, its the market, stupid.

Well. the market doesnt dictate how SBER treats its employees. The market doesnt dictate that their construction is half-assed. The market doesnt dictate the inflammatory and racist sales pitches that SBER sales reps use to sell their condos. Or does it?

[ArtInRuins]

I think we as UP'ers SHOULD be very concerned when a single developer (no matter now conservative or progressive we feel they are) buys up such a huge amount of space in a single (or multiple) swipe. How will effect the housing market in the Armory? how about the retail spaces on the east side? what about office vacancies downtown, or manufacturing jobs?

the fact is that the model SBER proposes is less flexible than having multiple developers work at multiple parcels.

its like the corporation takes an URBAN AREA, and makes it into a 'campus' (their term, not mine). dont we all perfer urban areas??????

While I agree with your premise, Laura, I would like to argue for one developer taking a large chunk like this... it is the vision of a single developer that will make it an urban area, and not a bunch of discrete projects that aren't linked by a common thread. Look at the big boxes that pop up... bad planning all around, and to get from one parkign lot to another, you have to drive back to the congested main road. That's becuase Target doesn't talk to Best Buy or what ever, and you get urban blight development that is car-centric.

Can you imagine three developers with private visions trying to make one inclusive "campus"? I just dont think it would work. You'd get three discrete projects right next to eachother. As it is, ALco and Eagle Square and Urban Smart Growth's redevelopment of the Eastern Butcher Block building are all discrete projects with very little shared public space or connection between them.

I bemoan the loss of industrial space for small businesses... yes. But if the Providence Redevelopment Authority is willing to rezone a large parcel of land to bring in more residential, thereby pushing out small business and industrial to (where? Johnston, Cranston, South Providence, East Providence?) then there are larger things wrong with the way those who have power to reshape our city see the way to the future. Mixed use should be truly mixed, with affordable business space, office space, commercial and residential space, and mixed use should also be mixed income. At least in a perfect world.

The city has the power now to reshape a developers vision to fit the City's vision, as long as the City's knows what's best (that's a huge question). I hope the era of letting any developer come forward with ANY plan and the City being so excited that SOMEONE is interested are long gone... I hope the City knows we are Hot Crap, and they can shape the way the city gets redeveloped without worrying about scaring developers off. This goes for Alco, the fudgeing 903, Sierra Suites, One Ten, whatever...

byt the way... "crap" and "fudgeing"? when did UP become Disneyfied?

[Lone Ranger]

This is the biggest question of gentrification.

I think one thing that would help the whole deal is if all Providence residents would have more respect for their neighborhoods. Less graffiti, less trash. Honestly I could care less what the income level of my neighbors is. But if they throw stuff on the street and in my yard, if they tag the side of my house (look at all the nice houses around Thayer), if they blare music at 3 in the morning...I don't want to live with them. Sadly, the stereotype is that these behaviors belong to the lower income classes. What does seem to be true without the use of a stereotype is that if there is a neighborhood which has turned into something of a ghetto, this behavior propogates. That's the broken glass theory or whatever it's called.

Flashes back to a scene from Family Guy:

Peter: "We're officially on welfare. Come on, kids. Help me scatter garbage on the front lawn."

Which is relevant because ... umm ... the show is set in Rhody. Yeah.

[Cotuit]

byt the way... "crap" and "fudgeing"? when did UP become Disneyfied?

While most members could and would and do use profanity in moderation, we ere on the side of caution because of the people who can't or won't use profanity in moderation. It was funny when 'dick' was censored and one tried to have a conversation about the Vice President.

[KRC]

If by "it" you mean the presentation by the developers, then i agree with you. It didn't go over well. and i was there for the entire meeting. I think the current residents of olneyville were very clear in their points, even if they aren't lawyers and paid professional public speakers. If this had been voted on last night it would not have passed. trust me when i tell you that doesn't happen very often.

That is exactly what I meant. I believe that had their been a unified voice from the neighborhood, many of the issues raised would have had a solid foundation for clarification. Instead, it seemed like people walked away frustrated. I'm sure it's just from my perspective, but I hate those types of confrontations. I agree that those that spoke for the neighborhood made valid points. My point is that I got the impression that the "little man" doesn't really matter unless he/she has the backing to become a voice to be reckond with.

[Garris]

This is the biggest question of gentrification.

I think one thing that would help the whole deal is if all Providence residents would have more respect for their neighborhoods. Less graffiti, less trash. Honestly I could care less what the income level of my neighbors is. But if they throw stuff on the street and in my yard, if they tag the side of my house... I don't want to live with them.

I agree with you (I think)...

This is one of the biggest issues I have with the class warfare that some bring up to oppose projects. We all know the stereotypes:

Lower income, artists, underrepresented minorities, students, etc = earthy, diverse, hip, authentic, hard working, fun, deserving...

Middle to higher income, professionals, caucasian/overrepresented minorities, etc = yuppy, stuck-up, monolithic, boring, intolerant, silver-spoon-in-mouth undeserving...

Bottom line: I don't care who lives there, how much they are making, what they do for a living, or any of that... But complaints about a project like ALCO would resonate far more with me if the neighborhood(s) weren't a dump. Sorry, but it is. I drive through there almost every day, and there is garbage everywhere, old strewn materials about (building, repair, toys, auto, etc), and unsightly wire metal fences ringing the properties (serving to more hold the garbage on the ground then keep people out).

Smith and Federal Hills pop to mind as well as having the same problems. Complaints from residents and their neighborhood associations about their area's "character" being at risk by having groups come in to build that might have some pride in their creation would hold far more water if it appeared the people/businesses already present cared enough to at least pick up the garbage they walk by every day...

- Garris

[soapbox mode off]

[Frankie811]

magoldbe, you are being somewhat decieving in the start of this thread. You did not secretly tape someone for the purposes of showing people how cool Rising Sun is, you did it with a very different agenda in mind.

I have read your posts in the ALCO thread and know how you feel about that proposed development and SBER in general. I also can agree with some of your points.

However, are you truly surprised at this? I dont think anyone else is either. SBER does not do things for the common good and advancement of all humankind. Find me a company that does.

http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content...eo.82e6de6.html

[Recchia]

http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content...eo.82e6de6.html

Sounds like this leasing agent is a little wacked and was running her mouth trying to appeal to what she thought would help sell a unit. I'm glad to hear Armory Revival clearing a few things up (i.e. 90% of what they own/buy is vacant)

[brick]

Sounds like this leasing agent is a little wacked and was running her mouth trying to appeal to what she thought would help sell a unit. I'm glad to hear Armory Revival clearing a few things up (i.e. 90% of what they own/buy is vacant)

Except that by leading her along the path of divisiveness just to prove a point, the "producers" of the film have likely cost her her job.

Hey, maybe she is a racist and a classist and shouldn't be associated with the place. If so then kudos or whatever. but if she was just making a pitch based on (false) concerns of a potential lessee who was playing devil's advocate for good copy, then I think that's a bunch of crap. Hope you all sleep well tonight.

[lauram]

Can you imagine three developers with private visions trying to make one inclusive "campus"? I just dont think it would work. You'd get three discrete projects right next to eachother. As it is, ALco and Eagle Square and Urban Smart Growth's redevelopment of the Eastern Butcher Block building are all discrete projects with very little shared public space or connection between them.

This is precisely my point, and I dont agree. I think we need to break down these chunks and make them public urban streetscape. I hear your point that they aren't that way now. but we have a great opportunity to push for that. Maybe you are right, and that this is best accomplished by a single developer.

I HATE HATE HATE the idea of a campus in the center of a city, for no real reason other than isolation. I get that colleges and institutions need a campus feel, why the need for SBER? The only reason I can fathom for them to prefer a campus to urban fabric is that they prefer isolation from the surrounding area. YUCK!

Even real urban college campuses, like NYU, etc have recognized that the best way to blend with the city is to become part of it.

[lauram]

I get where you are coming from. Trash sucks.

but are you saying that people dont deserve quality development because they dont use enough trashcans in their neighborhood? Really? Seriously? Are you thinking we should punish them by displacing them because they dont trim shrubs or mow their lawns?

Last time I checked lots of people have to work lots of hours per week to feed their kids, and I would rather they tend to that than spend time on their (rental) lawns.

I agree with you (I think)...

This is one of the biggest issues I have with the class warfare that some bring up to oppose projects. We all know the stereotypes:

Lower income, artists, underrepresented minorities, students, etc = earthy, diverse, hip, authentic, hard working, fun, deserving...

Middle to higher income, professionals, caucasian/overrepresented minorities, etc = yuppy, stuck-up, monolithic, boring, intolerant, silver-spoon-in-mouth undeserving...

Bottom line: I don't care who lives there, how much they are making, what they do for a living, or any of that... But complaints about a project like ALCO would resonate far more with me if the neighborhood(s) weren't a dump. Sorry, but it is. I drive through there almost every day, and there is garbage everywhere, old strewn materials about (building, repair, toys, auto, etc), and unsightly wire metal fences ringing the properties (serving to more hold the garbage on the ground then keep people out).

Smith and Federal Hills pop to mind as well as having the same problems. Complaints from residents and their neighborhood associations about their area's "character" being at risk by having groups come in to build that might have some pride in their creation would hold far more water if it appeared the people/businesses already present cared enough to at least pick up the garbage they walk by every day...

- Garris

[soapbox mode off]

[Mij]

This is precisely my point, and I dont agree. I think we need to break down these chunks and make them public urban streetscape. I hear your point that they aren't that way now. but we have a great opportunity to push for that. Maybe you are right, and that this is best accomplished by a single developer.

I HATE HATE HATE the idea of a campus in the center of a city, for no real reason other than isolation. I get that colleges and institutions need a campus feel, why the need for SBER? The only reason I can fathom for them to prefer a campus to urban fabric is that they prefer isolation from the surrounding area. YUCK!

Even real urban college campuses, like NYU, etc have recognized that the best way to blend with the city is to become part of it.

With that said, The whole concept of " College Campus " will appeal to the potential buyer. Considering this will probley be their target demographic. I'm not sure if isolation is the desired effect that SERB is going for. If you were to compare this to the " Regency Plaza " then isolation goes right out the window. The fences and parking sturctures dont isolate more then coordinate and segragate the wandering public from going into private areas, were their not welcome.

[Garris]

I get where you are coming from. Trash sucks.

but are you saying that people dont deserve quality development because they dont use enough trashcans in their neighborhood? Really? Seriously?

Of course not. I think they absolutely deserve quality development. What I don't understand is why they are fighting that same quality development. Such concerns of neighborhood fabric being lost and character being watered down would have far more resonance if it appeared the people already living there cared...

Last time I checked lots of people have to work lots of hours per week to feed their kids, and I would rather they tend to that than spend time on their (rental) lawns.

This is exactly the kind of "class warfare" statement that makes me mad.

Is the marketing executive or pilot who lives in College Hill not working many hours to feed their family? Is the nurse living in an immaculately kept home in a working class neighborhood of Pawtucket not pulling shift after shift? Is the graduate student virtually living in their lab not doing anything to keep the area around their Riverside apt building clean?

I've lived in many a rental community in my career, some in what are considered "bad" areas (like East Harlem in Manhattan). But none of them have had the degree of garbage and neglect you see in areas like Smith Hill and Federal Hill.

Using myself as an example, I can sometimes be on call in the hospital for 32 hours straight and that doesn't stop me from still picking up garbage in my neighborhood or on my condo grounds as I'm walking home.

I don't think that working hard (or the degree of money you're making) gives you a free pass on being a good and contributing citizen...

- Garris

[brick]

I get where you are coming from. Trash sucks.

but are you saying that people dont deserve quality development because they dont use enough trashcans in their neighborhood? Really? Seriously? Are you thinking we should punish them by displacing them because they dont trim shrubs or mow their lawns?

Last time I checked lots of people have to work lots of hours per week to feed their kids, and I would rather they tend to that than spend time on their (rental) lawns.

You are completely missing the point in order to be inflammatory. What we are saying is that this division over income lines or class line or the whole crappy "us vs. them" bs that you guys are trying to push is a result not of income levels but of people's willingness to be good neighbors. As I stated, the issues of being bad neighbors is generally associated (rightly or wrongly) with the lower class. That's what causes someone to market their property as different from the surrounding neighborhood.

I'll make the point clear again. I don't care whether my neighbor is pulling 30K or 300K. I don't care if they have section 8 housing or if they bought a palace. If they throw trash in my lawn, if they feel the need to blare music at all hours, if they decide to tag my house in some kind of elaborate way of establishing their territory...then I don't want them as neighbors. I don't think bad behavior necessarily has to be related to income or class. I do think that bad behavior is more prevalent in areas where people stop caring. I do think that Olneyville/Valley is (or was) one of these areas.

[Mij]

I get where you are coming from. Trash sucks.

but are you saying that people dont deserve quality development because they dont use enough trashcans in their neighborhood? Really? Seriously? Are you thinking we should punish them by displacing them because they dont trim shrubs or mow their lawns?

Last time I checked lots of people have to work lots of hours per week to feed their kids, and I would rather they tend to that than spend time on their (rental) lawns.

Your out of line.

Working and feeding your kids is a completely different issue. Developing new areas of a city were crime runs rampid, and social issue hurt more then they help is the issue. From what I have seen, the hard working families that pay the bills and and support their families are the naiboors that most people would want. It's the crack house that has the music blasting all hours of the night that people dont want to be around. Hard working people dont (for the most part) pollute thier own area. Hard working people are looking to the city for help with these issues.

[Liamlunchtray]

Except that by leading her along the path of divisiveness just to prove a point, the "producers" of the film have likely cost her her job.

Hey, maybe she is a racist and a classist and shouldn't be associated with the place. If so then kudos or whatever. but if she was just making a pitch based on (false) concerns of a potential lessee who was playing devil's advocate for good copy, then I think that's a bunch of crap. Hope you all sleep well tonight.

My thought is that a salesman who alters the truth to meet the desires of a client is a bad salesman and should be fired. If she was totally changing her story just to appease the buyers then they shouldn't want her working there no matter what the story was that she was telling. You can be a productive sales agent without misleading clients.

[brick]

My thought is that a salesman who alters the truth to meet the desires of a client is a bad salesman and should be fired. If she was totally changing her story just to appease the buyers then they shouldn't want her working there no matter what the story was that she was telling. You can be a productive sales agent without misleading clients.

My thought is that entrapment remains a despicable way to make a point.

All this video is going to result in is Armory telling people that they will not be allowed to videotape apartments, and perhaps the firing of this woman. If SBER is talking out of their butt and really don't care about the urban fabric, this kind of expose doesn't change anything.

[lauram]

I guess my point is that when a neighborhood is messy, trash, graffitti, etc, that there are lots of factors that contribute to that. And that we, as a city, should try to be considerate of those factors before we determine that the voices of those citizens should count "less". AND we should try to fix stuff, not steamroll it.

The point I had been responding to was the point that the messages of the neighbors would have been more well-received if their neighborhood was cleaner.

Your out of line.

Working and feeding your kids is a completely different issue. Developing new areas of a city were crime runs rampid, and social issue hurt more then they help is the issue. From what I have seen, the hard working families that pay the bills and and support their families are the naiboors that most people would want. It's the crack house that has the music blasting all hours of the night that people dont want to be around. Hard working people dont (for the most part) pollute thier own area. Hard working people are looking to the city for help with these issues.

[runawayjim]

Your out of line.

Working and feeding your kids is a completely different issue. Developing new areas of a city were crime runs rampid, and social issue hurt more then they help is the issue. From what I have seen, the hard working families that pay the bills and and support their families are the naiboors that most people would want. It's the crack house that has the music blasting all hours of the night that people dont want to be around. Hard working people dont (for the most part) pollute thier own area. Hard working people are looking to the city for help with these issues.

some hard working people do throw trash around and don't give a crap about the place they live. it's not just people who don't work, it's people who claim not to have time to do things other than work and take care of their kids.

I guess my point is that when a neighborhood is messy, trash, graffitti, etc, that there are lots of factors that contribute to that. And that we, as a city, should try to be considerate of those factors before we determine that the voices of those citizens should count "less". AND we should try to fix stuff, not steamroll it.

The point I had been responding to was the point that the messages of the neighbors would have been more well-received if their neighborhood was cleaner.

the message of the neighbors would have been more well-received if the neighbors showed that they actually cared about the neighborhood and not just themselves. having a dirty neighborhood with trash and graffiti everywhere shows that the residents don't really care about their neighborhood. if they did, they would clean it up by picking up trash and trying to remove graffiti or getting the city to remove the graffiti. if everyone spent an hour a week picking up trash, the city would look amazing.

[basachs]

On a related note, I was at the Steelyard's fundraising gala on saturday night. There was a performance by the What Cheer? brigade, a marching band. It was part music, part theater and was very politically charged. Through music and billboards and physical props, they protested mill rehab projects both past (Eagle Sq) and present (ALCO). The performance troupe had some members that were currently being evicted as a result of the ALCO project.

As I sat there nibbling on sushi, having a cocktail and looking around at all the other people doing the same, I could not help but feel that the majority of the people there would be exactly the type of people that SBER would want for ALCO. And exactly the type of people that the group performing would not want in ALCO.

I walked outside and looked across the river at the ALCO complex. Garris, I too drive by/through it frequently and am amazed at how sh!tty it is and the lack of upkeep. I am not talking the exteriors of the building, its the trash and graffiti and general unkemptness about it that make the area uninviting. So as I gazed across the river at this project with protest-tinged revelry, and excess consumption by yuppies and starving artists alike behind me, I could not help but wonder what the Olneyville Neighborhood Association's vision is for ALCO. What would they like done with the place instead? Is their vision for it to remain what it is?

[magoldbe]

I don't see how the leasing agent's words stray from Armory/SBER's general development policy and practice.

Leasing agent says: "it's US and THEM"

compare: Armory/SBER buy and expropriate a *working* manufacture facility that empoys olneyville residents. they shut it down and build it back up as apartments that are unaffordable to its neighbors (the avg. household income in olneyville is about $19,000/yr). They build fences, install cameras and employ security guards and, as the cherry on top, place a HUGE lighted sign across the entire length of the roof, shining directly into the bedrooms of their neighbors. every night.

This is the architectural equivalent of "US vs. THEM" and the leasing agents words are consistent with this. she was not a fluke, she was a mouthpiece. if anything, I guess she's an inadvertant whistle-blower.

A "campus" is not an urban concept. Remember that tract housing you grew up in in those outer-ring suburbs.. how boring it was and how much you prefer exciting city life? Imagine those ticky-tacky boxes plopped into a 17-acre expanse of mill buildings with big-box retailers and a whole foods on the ground floor and all of your neighbors going to work in offices next-door, day in and day out. that's pretty much what the ALCO proposal looks like (go to the next planning committee meeting if you want to see it for yourself). If people are fleeing the suburbs for a more engaging, interactive life in our nation's cities, maybe we should begin to embrace cities for the (economically, industrially, architecturally, ethnically, nationally) diverse places that they are.