Gentrification

[brick]

Honestly, I don't see the point of arguing with a zealot so I'll stop.

The problem is though that if the people you are trying to convince also think that you are a zealot...well, they will dismiss you instead of listening to you.

I would try to find a more effective way to make your points than throwing together a video like this or by repeating a mantra of SBER is evil, or what have you.

[ArtInRuins]

Trash and general unkemptness is a product of people who dont care, and its not neccesarily the people that live there. The people that live might care just fine, but the people who drive through might be more likely to throw their garbage out the window because it is a quote "crappy part of town" unquote. There are many factors to trash and graffitti. Some of the graffitti is a protest, too.

As for the plans for ALco... I still think it could be a great project, but the City and organizations like Olneyville Housing need to decide if it is the kind of development that they need. When a new devleoper comes to town they are subjected to tree coverage quotas and things... well what about the guy that owns ALco now? Why cant we hold current land owners to the same quality quotas?

And still, I stick by this whether or not they go through with the project, I would rather have SBER buy that property than any other developer in this city right now. They are far from perfect, but they are also far from Paolino.

And by the way, calling SBER racist is unproductive and not really true, or at least not provable. The woman in the video was from Armory, hired by SBER to run the residential leasing. Calling Armory racist wouldn't help either. Let's keep our heads together and try to be productive about all this.

[basachs]

compare: Armory/SBER buy and expropriate a *working* manufacture facility that empoys olneyville residents. they shut it down and build it back up as apartments that are unaffordable to its neighbors (the avg. household income in olneyville is about $19,000/yr).

If people are fleeing the suburbs for a more engaging, interactive life in our nation's cities, maybe we should begin to embrace cities for the (economically, industrially, architecturally, ethnically, nationally) diverse places that they are.

You are appealing for the readers to embrace cities as diverse. That I understand. Yet your statements above and throughout indicate that you dont want developments in Olneyville unless they are affordable by people making 19k or under a year. How diverse is that?

I dont make 19 or less a year. So am I not allowed to live in Olneyville? If I live at Rising Sun, don't I now comprise part of that diverse makeup?

[magoldbe]

Honestly, I don't see the point of arguing with a zealot so I'll stop.

easy for you to say. we'll see how calm you are when an enormous monopolizing force evicts you and your neighbors from your homes and businesses, like they're doing to me and mine right now.

[basachs]

Trash and general unkemptness is a product of people who dont care, and its not neccesarily the people that live there. The people that live might care just fine, but the people who drive through might be more likely to throw their garbage out the window because it is a quote "crappy part of town" unquote. There are many factors to trash and graffitti. Some of the graffitti is a protest, too.

True. However, I dont litter in the park I live by but I pick up after those that do. why? becasue I live there and it is my park just like it is my neghbor's and everyone in the city of providence. But since it is in the neighborhood in which I reside, it is up to the residents to be stewards over this park.

Same holds true for ALCO today. If people drive by and throw litter or graffitti, it is the people that work theres responsibility to clean it up. Saying, "we care, but the landlord wont do anything about it" or "we are too busy working" is a cop out. To follow my example, the city does not clean up my park either, but I still clean it. I work long hours too, but I still clean it.

I know some graffiti is a protest, I just find that to be despicable. But that is another topic.

Definitely have to keep a level head about this too. Stay informed and make informed statements is key to this.

[magoldbe]

You are appealing for the readers to embrace cities as diverse. That I understand. Yet your statements above and throughout indicate that you dont want developments in Olneyville unless they are affordable by people making 19k or under a year. How diverse is that?

that's not what I'm saying at all. It would be great to have some money folks in our neighborhood, getting involved in the local scene. I am just upset that this is coming at the expense of a) homes and businesses that are literally getting paved over by these development projects and b) over $100M of public funds in the case of ALCO. That's about 1/3 of the projected $333M price tag, yet none of the units are slated to be affordable to anyone in the neighborhood.

SBER's plan is not for diversity. Their plan is for complete take-over. I know that sounds paranoid and crazy, but they truly are buying almost every working mill in olneyville that they can get their hands on. look at the public records. There's all of the buildings in the 17-acre ALCO project plus Providence Knife and Plating, Art Craft Braid, and more. Talk to the folks who own businesses on Valley St and they'll tell you that SBER tried to buy them out too. This kind of development does not engender diversity, it merely replaces one group of people with another.

I encourage you all to visit Olneyville on a weekend. Have a taco at La Lupita's, shop for knick-knacks at the Big Top flea market, check out the art installations at the Dirt Palace, buy some whole-sale beads at Wolf E Myrow (totally awesome if you have crafty kids, btw). This is a thriving neighborhood with fewer vacant storefronts than downtown providence. I can understand why people want to live here. I love living here.

[DaveRPI]

easy for you to say. we'll see how calm you are when an enormous monopolizing force evicts you and your neighbors from your homes and businesses, like they're doing to me and mine right now.

monopolizing?

lol

where are you getting this stuff?

so now SBER owns all access to the apartment industry in olneyville or RI???

lol

next in line at the courts in washington, anti-trust hearings, SBER - they control the whole apartment industry

mad about big flashy lights?

u live in a city

mad about security cameras?

u live in a city

and

are you mad b/c you want to steal something from there?

mad about eviction?

too bad, its one of the risks of renting

u are off the reservation - stage 5 pyscho

maybe im not always right and maybe we're not always right, but ur always wrong

lol this made my day

[damus]

Has Providence floated the idea of rent-controlled housing like they have in New York? Unfortunately higher property values will drive some of the poorest out of Olneyville. I'm sure something will be done, it's not like Providence doesn't need low wage workers. When thinking of the "big picture", isn't this what a city should be aiming for?

BTW, I find it amazing that the average family income in Olneyville is 19k. If you speak English and have a clean record, you can work as a security guard downtown for $10/hr, which amounts to over 20k for doing nothing 40 hours a week. I wish the people who could afford it the least would try harder to not have kids.

I know everyone's situation is different, but there are people out there who work 2 or 3 jobs. I knew of one guy who worked for the building management company where I "worked" security during college who had 3 jobs. He was an EMT, worked at the ACI, and worked at the building downtown as an emergency "on call" engineer in the boiler room. Sure he, like most security guards who work overnight "dozed off" but he was still taking time out of what he'd like to be doing for the extra money. I worked a few 80 hour weeks during school to pay down my bills and save a little. During breaks I worked extra hours at Walmart back home, during xmas and thanksgiving breaks I worked there 7 days a week taking advantage of the "unlimited overtime" season. My grandparents both worked extra jobs on the side and saved. Even the poor cleaners who mostly spoke little or no English at the building downtown I worked at had 2 jobs with the cleaning job during the evening being only part time. It's not like it's impossible to find work in RI.

I think today we are led to believe that people are poor and there's no way out of it. People need to do their best to get themselves out of bad situations, it's the way of thinking that made the American economy what it is today. Perhaps my opinion is not PC and unpopular, but this is how I feel.

[Recchia]

A "campus" is not an urban concept. Remember that tract housing you grew up in in those outer-ring suburbs.. how boring it was and how much you prefer exciting city life? Imagine those ticky-tacky boxes plopped into a 17-acre expanse of mill buildings with big-box retailers and a whole foods on the ground floor and all of your neighbors going to work in offices next-door, day in and day out. that's pretty much what the ALCO proposal looks like (go to the next planning committee meeting if you want to see it for yourself). If people are fleeing the suburbs for a more engaging, interactive life in our nation's cities, maybe we should begin to embrace cities for the (economically, industrially, architecturally, ethnically, nationally) diverse places that they are.

Is there a rendering of this proposal? I find it hard to beleive that it will look like suburban tract housing.

[eltron]

You are appealing for the readers to embrace cities as diverse. That I understand. Yet your statements above and throughout indicate that you dont want developments in Olneyville unless they are affordable by people making 19k or under a year. How diverse is that?

I dont make 19 or less a year. So am I not allowed to live in Olneyville? If I live at Rising Sun, don't I now comprise part of that diverse makeup?

Out if 600 units, I think they could make 15 affordable to those making $19k or less a year. they could also make 15 affordable to those that make, say 50% of median, or about $27k a year, and how bout 60 units to those making about $42k a year? Yeah, I think they could do that, and still make boatloads of money. There's at least a little bit of income diversity for ya.

[eltron]

You are appealing for the readers to embrace cities as diverse. That I understand. Yet your statements above and throughout indicate that you dont want developments in Olneyville unless they are affordable by people making 19k or under a year. How diverse is that?

I dont make 19 or less a year. So am I not allowed to live in Olneyville? If I live at Rising Sun, don't I now comprise part of that diverse makeup?

Out if 600 units, I think they could make 15 affordable to those making $19k or less a year. they could also make 15 affordable to those that make, say 50% of median, or about $27k a year, and how bout 60 units to those making about $42k a year? Yeah, I think they could do that, and still make boatloads of money. There's at least a little bit of income diversity for ya.

[Cotuit]

u are off the reservation - stage 5 pyscho

maybe im not always right and maybe we're not always right, but ur always wrong

lol this made my day

Let us not start attacking each other, it would not make my day to have to start banning people.

[CtownMikey]

yea stop attacking and go compliment my photos!

[basachs]

Who says they are not going to?

Yes they could and still make boatloads of money. I dont disagree on that point. I have an issue with this black and white thinking that magoldbe has. An us vs them attitude is prevailing as much on magoldbe's side as it is on the leasing agent's side.

And the thing is, I think magoldbe situation sucks and he/she has some very valid points. But emulating that which you are having an issue with is not exactly a resounding battle cry.

[magoldbe]

Out if 600 units, I think they could make 15 affordable to those making $19k or less a year. they could also make 15 affordable to those that make, say 50% of median, or about $27k a year, and how bout 60 units to those making about $42k a year? Yeah, I think they could do that, and still make boatloads of money. There's at least a little bit of income diversity for ya.

I agree. This would somewhat mitigate the loss of jobs in the neighborhood.

Currently, SBER proposes to set aside 20% of their housing for what they call "workforce" pricing. This is not the official HUD standard of "affordable". It is a malleable term that generally means "affordable to people making 80% of the median income of the greater providence area." That is about 80% of $62,000 (I seem to recall this being the median income for the greater providence area). So these will be affordable to households making around $49,600 (take these numbers with some grains of salt, as I'm pulling them from memory).

I think that by city policy, any development project that uses city funds must allocate a certain percentage of units must be HUD-affordable. I forget the details on this. lauram, do you know? regardless, this is not what SBER is proposing.

[eltron]

You are appealing for the readers to embrace cities as diverse. That I understand. Yet your statements above and throughout indicate that you dont want developments in Olneyville unless they are affordable by people making 19k or under a year. How diverse is that?

I dont make 19 or less a year. So am I not allowed to live in Olneyville? If I live at Rising Sun, don't I now comprise part of that diverse makeup?

[edit for repeat] Yeah, I think they could do that, and still make boatloads of money. There's at least a little bit of income diversity for ya.

SBER is not an evil company (though it appears they have a really stupid leasing agent), but there are real and significant implications to the type of work they do, and that needs to be addressed. And they CAN do better to both IMPROVE the neighborhood without turning the existing population out on its ass. It is not that hard to do, especially for a company with their clout.

[DaveRPI]

Has Providence floated the idea of rent-controlled housing like they have in New York? Unfortunately higher property values will drive some of the poorest out of Olneyville. I'm sure something will be done, it's not like Providence doesn't need low wage workers. When thinking of the "big picture", isn't this what a city should be aiming for?

BTW, I find it amazing that the average family income in Olneyville is 19k. If you speak English and have a clean record, you can work as a security guard downtown for $10/hr, which amounts to over 20k for doing nothing 40 hours a week. I wish the people who could afford it the least would try harder to not have kids.

I know everyone's situation is different, but there are people out there who work 2 or 3 jobs. I knew of one guy who worked for the building management company where I "worked" security during college who had 3 jobs. He was an EMT, worked at the ACI, and worked at the building downtown as an emergency "on call" engineer in the boiler room. Sure he, like most security guards who work overnight "dozed off" but he was still taking time out of what he'd like to be doing for the extra money. I worked a few 80 hour weeks during school to pay down my bills and save a little. During breaks I worked extra hours at Walmart back home, during xmas and thanksgiving breaks I worked there 7 days a week taking advantage of the "unlimited overtime" season. My grandparents both worked extra jobs on the side and saved. Even the poor cleaners who mostly spoke little or no English at the building downtown I worked at had 2 jobs with the cleaning job during the evening being only part time. It's not like it's impossible to find work in RI.

I think today we are led to believe that people are poor and there's no way out of it. People need to do their best to get themselves out of bad situations, it's the way of thinking that made the American economy what it is today. Perhaps my opinion is not PC and unpopular, but this is how I feel.

good points

hard work and sacrifice seem to be lost on some people nowadays

entitlement seems to be taking its place and/or misunderstanding of how to get out of the position they are in... people want what they feel they deserve and they want it right now. there's no connection on how to get where they want to be. successful and/or happy people rarely complain. they act. being rich doesnt have to be their goal. it can be anywhere anyone wants to be - to be happy. if you're not happy, then change your personal situation to make it so. i hear people sometimes say they are stuck and they act like they have no control over their lives. well, if thats what they believe then thats exactly what they are going to get. they go through the motions and let outside forces govern the course of their lives... and you DON'T have to be poor to feel that way.

point is... if you dont want to get evicted, then work harder and you can buy the building and not have to worry about it ever again. maybe it wont happen overnight and it wont be easy, but anything that is truly worth it in this world, never comes easy. then again maybe it wont happen, but complaining about it to ridiculous levels does nothing but make you look like someone who is unwilling to work for what they want.

i feel like i just described a new england patriots draft pick! lol

[magoldbe]

And they CAN do better to both IMPROVE the neighborhood without turning the existing population out on its ass. It is not that hard to do, especially for a company with their clout.

Right on Eltron. I'm totally with you on this. The pricing scheme you outline looks pretty good. Unfortunately, as far as I know, SBER's current offer of "affordable" housing isnt very affordable. See my previous post to that effect.

just to reiterate: the development itself is not the problem. The problem is that the developments are physically displacing the economic core of olneyville. by "redeveloping" workplaces into livingspaces, a lot of people are losing their livelihoods right now, and as a resident, it is hard to see this as an "improvement". If those mill buildings were empty and SBER wanted to turn them into condo's, I'd be totally psyched. It is the *displacement* and the use of public funds to do so that troubles me.

[DaveRPI]

Let us not start attacking each other, it would not make my day to have to start banning people.

haha, my bad cotuit

its monday!

i just saw what magoldbe said and wanted to say something back for once

enough was enough, can it be reposted without the reservation quote?

lol, i could have left the "off the reservation" part out, but i just watched wedding crashers again this weekend and i felt like i needed to use that line somewhere soon!

but to be real, this person's comments sounded like an attack against a bunch of people

and in the past they have said some pretty unsavory things to me and others in here

so i felt like gettin into it with them

they were allowed to say some not so nice things and some completely untrue and ridiculous things, so i feel like i should be able to say what my opinions are as well. i didnt swear or call somebody out, but i understand if you wanna leave out the reservation line...

lol sorry, just didnt think that it wouldnt get posted on an open forum

[Cotuit]

but to be real, this person's comments sounded like an attack against a bunch of people

and in the past they have said some pretty unsavory things to me and others in here

so i felt like gettin into it with them

they were allowed to say some not so nice things and some completely untrue and ridiculous things, so i feel like i should be able to say what my opinions are as well. i didnt swear or call somebody out

I let people go pretty far, but direct attacks or perceived direct attacks against individual members are a non-starter. Broad attacks against groups of people are technically against UPs rules, but I allow the conversation to develop because people are pretty good about the level of discourse around here, and people are generally good at interpretting what others are trying to say.

Nothing has been removed from this discussion, and no one has been banned or in anyway moderated, yet.

I trust that as always, I will not have to move beyond gentle warnings.

[magoldbe]

I'm sorry that folks are feeling attacked by the things that I've said. I'm trying to base my comments on fact. For example, when I say that SBER is a "monopolizing force" in the community, I say so because I know about many of the buildings they have bought. How do I know this? Because I have spoken to my landlord (who sold his building to SBER, not as part of ALCO, but to be redeveloped in another project later on) and to others who work for Armory, the city, CDCs and neighborhood groups, local buisiness owners, and residents.

Also, I have gone to or spoken with people who have attended numerous planning commission meetings as well as a public meeting held by SBER themselves, just last week. I am not making these things up. Maybe you nay-sayers should come to more planning meetings. they're very interesting, and a great way to get involved with your community. you can find out when the next meeting is here:

http://www.providenceri.com/government/planning/cpc/ (note that the chairman, Steve Durkee, is also a principle in the architecture firm working for ALCO)

If you read my words and think that I'm a total wing-nut, then maybe you should think hard about the actions of Struever Bros. and Armory. If it sounds like I'm spouting paranoid delusions, then that's a reflection of just how out of hand this development is becoming.

[DaveRPI]

Out if 600 units, I think they could make 15 affordable to those making $19k or less a year. they could also make 15 affordable to those that make, say 50% of median, or about $27k a year, and how bout 60 units to those making about $42k a year? Yeah, I think they could do that, and still make boatloads of money. There's at least a little bit of income diversity for ya.

not just the company, but their investors, who are very demanding and hold the legal upper hand, will be "expecting" to make boatloads of money... in the end, it probably won't be a boatload of money

i dont work for them, but ill take a guess from what i know

i'd say 3-5% tops on their investments, which is pretty average [maybe 6-7% which is pretty good], id be shocked to see 8-12% in the end, but who knows, apartment revenues are expected to increase in the not-so-distant future

costs for negotitating, desiging, building, renovating, and acquiring these properties have skyrocketed the past 3 yrs. trust me - it cuts into yields. also, time is a huge factor nowadays. the time-value of money plays a large role in their thinking.

[eltron]

not just the company, but their investors, who are very demanding and hold the legal upper hand, will be "expecting" to make boatloads of money... in the end, it probably won't be a boatload of money

i dont work for them, but ill take a guess from what i know

i'd say 3-5% tops on their investments, which is pretty average [maybe 6-7% which is pretty good], id be shocked to see 8-12% in the end, but who knows, apartment revenues are expected to increase in the not-so-distant future

costs for negotitating, desiging, building, renovating, and acquiring these properties have skyrocketed the past 3 yrs. trust me - it cuts into yields. also, time is a huge factor nowadays. the time-value of money plays a large role in their thinking.

That is absurd. try multiplying that by 4 or 5.

The boat will be flowing down the Woonasquatucket, my friend, and it will be filled with money. SBER isn't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts... I would bet SBER is pulling down upwards of $60 million dollars PROFIT on the ALCO deal when all is said and done, if not more over the long - term. To put that in perspective, that is the yearly salary of 3,158 people earning the median for Olneyville.

I'm sure a company as successful as SBER knows how to turn a profit despite all those things "cutting into yields." Lets not forget the $100 million dollars in state historic tax credits...

[pete11]

not just the company, but their investors, who are very demanding and hold the legal upper hand, will be "expecting" to make boatloads of money... in the end, it probably won't be a boatload of money

i dont work for them, but ill take a guess from what i know

i'd say 3-5% tops on their investments, which is pretty average [maybe 6-7% which is pretty good], id be shocked to see 8-12% in the end, but who knows, apartment revenues are expected to increase in the not-so-distant future

costs for negotitating, desiging, building, renovating, and acquiring these properties have skyrocketed the past 3 yrs. trust me - it cuts into yields. also, time is a huge factor nowadays. the time-value of money plays a large role in their thinking.

Not to get into the minutia of strafied funding, but why would any entity risk capital for a return of 3-5%, when the 2yr treasury is yielding 4.94%?

That is absurd. try multiplying that by 4 or 5.

The boat will be flowing down the Woonasquatucket, my friend, and it will be filled with money. SBER isn't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts... I would bet SBER is pulling down upwards of $60 million dollars PROFIT on the ALCO deal when all is said and done, if not more over the long - term. To put that in perspective, that is the yearly salary of 3,158 people earning the median for Olneyville.

I'm sure a company as successful as SBER knows how to turn a profit despite all those things "cutting into yields." Lets not forget the $100 million dollars in state historic tax credits...

or the 40 million dollars in bonds

[jencoleslaw]

I'm sure a company as successful as SBER knows how to turn a profit despite all those things "cutting into yields." Lets not forget the $100 million dollars in state historic tax credits...

and whatever the city subsidy is going to be...