Downtown Myths

[Veloise]

The issue is, you want things open downtown so you can shop, eat out, hang out, but in order for that to happen, workers have to give up their time to shop, eat out, and hang out.

Not easy to find people willing to work 'family' hours, usually giving up their own family time so that you can have yours. ...people went to parks, and picnicked, and generally found ways to enjoy each other's company, instead of looking for commercial entertainment or enterprise. I found that to be thoroughly charming and wonderful....What's lacking societally isn't more open signs, but more ways to develop real relationships by spending time with our friends and families that don't depend on commerce.

Off soapbox now.

As someone who's in the family-free demographic, I like having a place to go on weekends and evenings where there are people around, and no pressure to drink or smoke (i.e. bars). Coffeeshops are a godsend. I was a fixture laptopping at a table at Urban Grind, then Four Friends (by the wall plug) until Olive Express opened (big plus: the street guys don't go into Sam's place).

Picnicking in a park is a nice concept; did that the other day on the way to Kent Trails. Dinner took me 5 minutes. Riding on the bike trails is fun, but it's not easy to locate or hold a conversation while rolling at 15mph.

I'm not challenging this lovely picture of family values, just pointing out that many of us are in other situations.

[torgo]

Exactly. Ground level interaction is a must. As for the requirement for mixed use, the market really needs to be the deciding factor there. The city should envolve itself in the development process to insure the building fits in with the urban fabric, but having a blanket requirement listing the how a development needs to be designed is very narrowminded.

To me it it just seems that having an ordience like that would make it too easy for the city to opt out of the design process which would actually increase the potential of having something built that really doesn't fit in with the city's needs.

Yeah, function over form. For the most part, I don't really care what the use is, as long as the building works.

As for design, it was said that many developers prefer design standards, because at least then they knew exactly what the city wanted. If GR had clear-cut design guidelines, would Joe Moch have gotten all pissed when the Planning Commission said his blank wall was ugly? Probably not.

[GRGyp]

As for design, it was said that many developers prefer design standards, because at least then they knew exactly what the city wanted. If GR had clear-cut design guidelines, would Joe Moch have gotten all pissed when the Planning Commission said his blank wall was ugly? Probably not.

I was thinking more terms of design for use than the exterior look in terms of writing standards. I should of clarified more. The city should be involved in the design of project to make sure it fits in with the urban fabric around it. I don't know if they need a strict set of codes, however, to insure the "look" fits in with the surrounds as much as maybe a design committee to approve the final design of the building. What they certainly don't need is a set of codes that say x% needs to be residential, y% commercial, and z% retail. That needs to be market driven.

So in the case of Moch, the city shouldn't tell him that the building can't be 100% residential use and that street level retail needs to be added. They should, however, tell him the first floor "bunker" design needs to go and give guidelines of what they'd like to see for the ground level architecture.

[Mark Miller]

3. Downtown needs a "theme" to be successful

This is a myth everywhere, not just downtown. It seems that many developers want a theme, complete with the $80,000 sign and landscape package at the front entry that hits you over the head trying to convey the theme. Every single new residential subdivision has one of these, as do most other developments, including the new Cannon Town Center. Visbeen was the "theme architect" and there will be a sign, just in case the general public is confused as to what is going on here.

4. We have a parking problem

This is the suburbanites rallying cry after being spoiled by obligatory parking lots in front of every single commercial building.

5. Franchises will ruin downtown's quaintness

This is flat out myth, it is more about form than use and as long as the franchises comply with proper storefronts AND urban building types, they should only strengthen downtown. At least in the short term. The entire retail spectrum is going to need to recalibrate in the future....

9. Downtown can regain its prominence as the community's retail heart

As the price of oil ratchets up to $100.00 per barrel, adversly effecting all retail trade. All services will need to be closer to population centers (These new population centers will be in urban areas, that are walkable, compact and dense). These services and the retail trade are also going to have to scale back to a more localized economy.

[Rizzo]

I heard that a resturant will be open 24 hours some time in the next month or so...

[dtsd]

Businesses just need to be OPEN. Including SUNDAY! Honestly, what is everyone doing? Taking a day off? I don't want to cook, I want to spend MONEY!

No doubt! I was in GR on business a couple years ago and stayed the weekend. I went downtown to get some food and have a drink Sunday afternoon and it was dead. I was dismayed to find the only thing open was TGIF. As more people move in I'm sure it will reach a critical mass, and then we

[dtsd]

Well, then the stores, restaurants and bars that are open the hours I need to shop will get my dollars and the ones that think they should be closed will get none of my dollars.

Exactly.

[grcitydog]

In regard to parking: IMO the distance people walk isn't really about the distance itself, but what they are walking past to get to their destination. Let me explain; in a suburban setting, if you park far from the door of the mall, you have to walk past parked cars, cars backing out, cars zipping too fast through the lot, and in bad weather, through puddles and slush if it is cold- in other words, it is hazadous and not a pleasant experience, hence most people will do what they can make it as short a walk as possible. Same goes for a downtown that is not vibrant. You may have to walk past vacant store fronts, more surface lots, and open areas. There aren't many people, so there is a high perception of crime, and since the stores are vacant, it isn't very bright out. Again, people don't want to walk very far and won't come to the few things that are left downtown. Now imagine a vibrant downtown with lots of people walking to various places. There are lots of stores with lots of lights at street level. You can window shop as you walk by or even go in and buy something you hadn't expected. The activity level is high, so you feel safe, and there aren't many open spaces you have to walk past. You don't really care if you have to walk as far, because the walk is enjoyable. So walking isn't bad, the environment is what is bad.

[snoogit]

So walking isn't bad, the environment is what is bad.

Amen to that! one of my most favorite things is taking suburbanites downtown, the FIRST spot I take em is a walk down Monroe Center. Sometimes thats enough to change em But if that doesn't work then we just keep walking in the general area, Passing the civic theatre and heading west on Pearl, then north on ottawa. The farthest I ever took someone walking in GR was Ottawa and Lyon before they were hooked.

[torgo]

In regard to parking: IMO the distance people walk isn't really about the distance itself, but what they are walking past to get to their destination. Let me explain; in a suburban setting, if you park far from the door of the mall, you have to walk past parked cars, cars backing out, cars zipping too fast through the lot, and in bad weather, through puddles and slush if it is cold- in other words, it is hazadous and not a pleasant experience, hence most people will do what they can make it as short a walk as possible. Same goes for a downtown that is not vibrant. You may have to walk past vacant store fronts, more surface lots, and open areas. There aren't many people, so there is a high perception of crime, and since the stores are vacant, it isn't very bright out. Again, people don't want to walk very far and won't come to the few things that are left downtown. Now imagine a vibrant downtown with lots of people walking to various places. There are lots of stores with lots of lights at street level. You can window shop as you walk by or even go in and buy something you hadn't expected. The activity level is high, so you feel safe, and there aren't many open spaces you have to walk past. You don't really care if you have to walk as far, because the walk is enjoyable. So walking isn't bad, the environment is what is bad.

Yeah, you are exactly right. It always cracks me up when you go to someplace like Meijer and I gotta park far away, everyone says "its soooooo far to the store, you should've parked closer blah blah frickin blah. But interestingly, when I take them downtown, I don't hear complaining about the walk, even though its five times farther. I think people get it, but at the same time they don't get it, ya know?

[mejane]

No doubt! I was in GR on business a couple years ago and stayed the weekend. I went downtown to get some food and have a drink Sunday afternoon and it was dead. I was dismayed to find the only thing open was TGIF. As more people move in I'm sure it will reach a critical mass, and then we

[Veloise]

In regard to parking: IMO the distance people walk isn't really about the distance itself, but what they are walking past to get to their destination. Let me explain; in a suburban setting, if you park far from the door of the mall, you have to walk past parked cars, cars backing out, cars zipping too fast through the lot...

And crazed people hood-surfing, turning donuts, and otherwise using their cars to be obnoxious.

[ooops, maybe that belongs in the Meijer thread]

[GRDadof3]

Retail businesses and restaurants have to weigh the cost/benefits of deciding when to be open. There's the extreme, 24 hours a day, or the minimum (lunchtime or a few hours a day), maybe some weekends. Somewhere in between those is where you are profitable, depending on your clientele. You can't just "be open whenever ANYONE wants". That is the quickest way to put yourself out of business. If being open on during a certain period of time means taking a loss (i.e. it costs me $2000 to be open on Sundays, and I'll only ring up $800 in sales), then that's easy: you stay closed.

Even larger cities like Chicago, you'll find plenty of businesses downtown CLOSED on Sundays.

I agree about the walking. If you showed people that a walk from Ottawa/Pearl to Ottawa/Monroe Center was the same distance as parking at the far extremes of a Meijer lot, they would be shocked.

[snoogit]

Retail businesses and restaurants have to weigh the cost/benefits of deciding when to be open. There's the extreme, 24 hours a day, or the minimum (lunchtime or a few hours a day), maybe some weekends. Somewhere in between those is where you are profitable, depending on your clientele. You can't just "be open whenever ANYONE wants". That is the quickest way to put yourself out of business. If being open on during a certain period of time means taking a loss (i.e. it costs me $2000 to be open on Sundays, and I'll only ring up $800 in sales), then that's easy: you stay closed.

Even larger cities like Chicago, you'll find plenty of businesses downtown CLOSED on Sundays.

I agree about the walking. If you showed people that a walk from Ottawa/Pearl to Ottawa/Monroe Center was the same distance as parking at the far extremes of a Meijer lot, they would be shocked.

Heh whats even more shocking is getting them to realize that a walk from far end of the Delta Plex lot is like a walk from GRCC to Monroe Center

[dtsd]

Usually in the service industries, including retail, being available to work weekends is

a requirement of the job, one that is accepted with reluctance by many, specifically

Sundays. You can get staff, but rarely do you get, "Yay, I'm on the schedule for

Sunday, yippee!" It's usually, "Oh, crap, I have to work Sunday."

I agree, though there're also those who're trying to work around other obligations such as school, but that's all besides the point - the point being that the problem to having businesses open during these hours is not a lack of labor willing (even if relunctantly) to do the job. Lack of customer demand is the issue.

Even larger cities like Chicago, you'll find plenty of businesses downtown CLOSED on Sundays.

And that's normal in any successful downtown. The hope and goal is to reach a critical mass of businesses that ARE open so that you can head out any day (or night) of the week and find something to your liking.