Your day with dynamite

[Cotuit]

doesn't contribute to the city through paying sales tax, I could go on...

Not true. The reality is that Providence gets no sales taxes from anything, the sales tax is a state tax, but... the state does generate sales tax revenue from Providence Place.

Based on store tax figures submitted to the state, Rhode Island has earned about $37 million in sales taxes from Providence Place since the mall opened in mid-1999. That's the money left after the financial give-and-take required by the mall's financing package.

The mall's builders, Commonwealth Development Group, secured $208 million in tax relief for the project.

The package includes:

[Lone Ranger]

I was mentioning the HTC because of course developers are going to complain that without them they could take their satchels of cash and go elsewhere. What else would they say?

Well yeah, of course they would. That goes without saying. But when I made the initial reference to HTC's, I wasn't talking about the developers' reactions to the loss of the HTC's. I was talking about the dismay right here, on UP, where obviously the consensus is that we do need to continue "to dangle carrots & fruitbaskets" of some form or another to these developers to keep them coming back for more, although perhaps not as generous an incentives package as we're currently offering.

Looking at that thread, I don't see a single post that is for the repeal of the HTC's. There are a couple of neutral posts, yours being examples of that. On the 2nd page of the thread, there are a couple of interesting suggestions for modifying the structure of the HTC's, imposing further restrictions upon their applicability, and dispersing their impact on the state's budget. But I see not a single poster who thinks we can afford to repeal the HTC's altogether.

Which is a direct reflection on our opinion of our climate of development. We feel that our development still needs a crutch. And we're homers, too -- not that I see anybody who's obviously wearing the proverbial rose-colored glasses here, but c'mon, it's perfectly natural for us to overestimate ourselves a little. If we're worried about the potential impact of losing the HTC's, then how do outsiders see our climate of development?

setting up all kinds of other tax incentives without getting anything real back,

Without getting anything real back?

[AriPVD]

This garage had retail, a very successful restaurant that was forced out when the Journal bought the garage. The commercial space was then removed to make way for more parking.

Thom--anything we could do to get the Projo to be a little more considerate of the urban environment. They've got to be one of the worst offenders downtown.

[jencoleslaw]

This garage had retail, a very successful restaurant that was forced out when the Journal bought the garage. The commercial space was then removed to make way for more parking.

yeah, um, there is a commercial space in there and it is called My Office, btw, so let's try not to replace it too soon, ok?

[jencoleslaw]

Which is a direct reflection on our opinion of our climate of development. We feel that our development still needs a crutch. And we're homers, too -- not that I see anybody who's obviously wearing the proverbial rose-colored glasses here, but c'mon, it's perfectly natural for us to overestimate ourselves a little. If we're worried about the potential impact of losing the HTC's, then how do outsiders see our climate of development?

Without getting anything real back?

I'm not one of the ones worried about our climate of development, and i am continuing to feel comfortable in saying we can be a lot more heavy handed with developers without scaring them off. I am still waiting for someone (because i'm a math dolt) to do some of the numbers that show the recent development of, say, the last 10 years is actually contributing to Providence's bottom line and rising the tide for everyone, just like everyone says when a TIF or another fruit basket is rocketed through the city council. All i know is that programs in this year's budget are getting slashed with a giant budget knife and the school system still sucks, so, where's the benefit to providence residents? That property taxes might not go UP again this year?

while i do believe that development makes the city better, i also am quite confident that better development with fewer give backs (unless we get something in return) is more than possible in Providence. And until i see the math that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that requiring developers to plant more trees, or contribute to affordable housing (either in their developments or in a housing/environmental trust fund) and when we stop giving away zoning variances like they were bean burritos at a dead concert, i will stay my course of wanting the city to take a harder line on folks who come to town, build crap, get the tax breaks and the variances and then sell off the property and split.

and you know what else? i think tax breaks, stabilization plans, TIFs and other goodies should be renegotiated if the property changes hands before the end of the break period.

[gregw]

I'd blow up the GE factory at Atwells and Harris. As long as it sits there decaying, its a major eyesore to those of us who live west of Federal Hill.

Providence has lost enough of its historic industrial architecture, thank you.

Besides, that complex has tons of potential if only GE would sell to an enlightened developer. It's got a cool Spanish mission style office, areas for landscaping, nice wrought iron gates, and is well proportioned with good crisp brick detailing. It was even written up by the famous architectural historian Hitchcock of the Museum of Modern Art along with the Foundry as superior examples of late mill architecture.

Tear it down and I can guarantee you'll see some just another heinous strip mall.

Providence has some bad buildings (I would say almost all the bad ones have been built since the 50s) but the GE Plant is not one of them.

A poor use of space--especially for surface parking--is by far the biggest blight on Providence way more than its bad buildings.

[Frankie811]

This garage had retail, a very successful restaurant that was forced out when the Journal bought the garage. The commercial space was then removed to make way for more parking.

The only retail that I can remember over the years was a Budget and Hertz car rental, and a very small coffee shop.

[Lone Ranger]

And until i see the math that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that requiring developers to plant more trees, or contribute to affordable housing (either in their developments or in a housing/environmental trust fund) and when we stop giving away zoning variances like they were bean burritos at a dead concert, i will stay my course of wanting the city to take a harder line on folks who come to town, build crap, get the tax breaks and the variances and then sell off the property and split

I'm having a helluva hard time reading through that sentence. Seems to be missing something. I think you're saying that you won't be satisfied until you see the math proving that all this development is beneficial to the city's bottom line. Is that it?

Providence has some bad buildings (I would say almost all of them built since the 50s) but the GE Plant is not one of them.

A poor use of space--especially for surface parking--is by far the biggest blight on Providence way more than its bad buildings.

Can we blow up the parking lots, then?

[gregw]

The only retail that I can remember over the years was a Budget and Hertz car rental, and a very small coffee shop.

Does anyone remember Winkler's Steak House? Was that part of the Garage?

[jencoleslaw]

I'm having a helluva hard time reading through that sentence. Seems to be missing something. I think you're saying that you won't be satisfied until you see the math proving that all this development is beneficial to the city's bottom line. Is that it?

my posts must need a little key or something to be understood. but to be fair, that one was a little wack with the grammar. I won't relax my stance on developers until i start seeing some of the math that everyone is touting--lower property taxes, better city services, affordable housing, more jobs for people living in the city, greater tax base--all the things that get trotted out as benefits. These "benefits" get bandied about at every meeting i'm at, and yet, the actual benefit, say four years later--do we ever see that? is it simply transparent? Or does it not really exist in many cases? i want to know these things. I don't think it is too much to ask for.

[Cotuit]

I won't relax my stance on developers until i start seeing some of the math that everyone is touting--lower property taxes, better city services, affordable housing, more jobs for people living in the city, greater tax base--all the things that get trotted out as benefits.

I think the city is so far in the hole as far as it's budget goes and the neglect that the city has suffered over decades, that we're not likely to see much in the way of reduced property taxes anytime soon. Unfunded mandates, under-funded pensions, the schools, the conditions of the parks, then just the actual cost to run the city day to day... the city needs a lot of money.

[Dan]

that complex has tons of potential if only GE would sell to an enlightened developer. It's got a cool Spanish mission style office, areas for landscaping, nice wrought iron gates, and is well proportioned with good crisp brick detailing. It was even written up by the famous architectural historian Hitchcock of the Museum of Modern Art along with the Foundry as superior examples of late mill architecture.

You know I love the mills! I'm frustrated because it's rotting and I want something done with it. It looks sweet from the Atwells side, there's a lot of nice green space. The Harris Ave side looks like hell.

I don't think GE will ever sell it... if they were going to make a move to unload it, wouldn't now be the perfect time?

I'll second Garris on blowing up the Ambulatory Patient Care building. And what is the deal with the sea of asphalt in front of the main door? They don't let anyone park there, it's just a big empty pad of pavement!

How about some trees or something?!

[Garris]

I'll second Garris on blowing up the Ambulatory Patient Care building. And what is the deal with the sea of asphalt in front of the main door? They don't let anyone park there, it's just a big empty pad of pavement!

How about some trees or something?!

That sea of asphalt (and it is big) is mostly used for valet parking spaces now for the new Cancer Center. It's also used for some parking for the nearby radiology facilities. The space in front of the door is larger than it looks like it needs to be also to accomodate the ambulances and vehicles that bring patients from nursing homes and the like... Most medical centers have a vehicle/parking area like that...

Amazingly, the APC building architecture was considered a regional landmark at the time it was designed in the 1950's and was considered to be at the bleeding edge of both modern architecture and materials use (mostly concrete exterior). It actually does have some interesting angles and perspectives. I'm particularly fond of the zig-zaging windows that adorn the emergency exit stairway on the Northern facade (here's a photo I took at about 2 AM after I was called into the hospital):

Actually, the building's concrete seemed to pay off in one respect, as the exterior seems to be in great shape for its age. The interior has been nicely and attractively renovated as well, and it certainly functions beautifully and comfortably for what it does medically.

It just isn't very pretty (well, ugly) on the outside, and it has the usual cold, off-putting human relationship at street level that these buildings tend to have. RIH has made things worse by doing, essentially, no landscaping at the base, making it feel even more isolatingly Soviet (although this will be changing soon, I'm told). Of course, when raining, the concrete absorbs water and makes the whole building depressingly look like a half wet sponge.

The Cancer Center addition made it worse, as it's a completely foreign, non-contextual, wood-paneled post-modern shack literally grafted on to the West facade of the building making it look like a, well, like a tumor . Not a good motif for a Cancer Center...

I've always thought of the APC Building as the best example of David Brussat's argument that modern architecture is a movement "of the moment" of architects for architects that isn't very pretty and looks worse with time... This certainly all was the case with APC...

- Garris

[xine]

I think the mall is great, especially for people coming to the city for conventions and such becuase of the skybridge to the Westin.

The reason I think this may be precisely why it's bad is my conversation with a woman from Miami who told me she had visited Providence last summer and found it dull and completely devoid of nightlife - and believe me none of these little emoticons can really do justice to my confusion over this - so I questioned her further and discovered she'd been to a convention and never really left the Mall!

Also - that is a very cool photograph, Garris.

I don't care what Brussat says, modernism's moment has lasted the better part of a century now and I don't see it actually fading anytime soon. New England may be trapped in a little amber bubble but the rest of the world is building some serious cutting edge design.

I continue to feel that we're still too close to the modernism of the 1950's-1970's to really appreciate it, and time will redeem the brutalists. Spare the dynamite - at least until 2030!

[basachs]

The reason I think this may be precisely why it's bad is my conversation with a woman from Miami who told me she had visited Providence last summer and found it dull and completely devoid of nightlife - and believe me none of these little emoticons can really do justice to my confusion over this - so I questioned her further and discovered she'd been to a convention and never really left the Mall!

Her experience says more about her, than Providence. If you never leave your building, you wont see much no matter where you go. Does she stay in her house all the time in Miami?

I have been to a ton of conventions and conferences. I dont expect that the hotel and convention center are the only things going on in cities, even if they do have a mall there.

[xine]

Her experience says more about her, than Providence. If you never leave your building, you wont see much no matter where you go. Does she stay in her house all the time in Miami?

That's just the thing - she's a bit of a party animal and goes clubbing all the time down there. I suspect she had low expectations and didn't even try to find out what was going on in the city. Picking up a Phoenix is too much trouble, I guess...

The Mall does at least one thing well - the view from the center atrium of Waterplace Park, College Hill, and the skyline (now partially blocked by the GTech building) is spectacular & one of my favorites. I would think that alone would induce you to talk a walk.

[Dan]

Also - that is a very cool photograph, Garris.

Glad I incited Garris to post another very cool selection!

The interior is nice, if you turn left inside the front door. Well, ok, the blood lab lobby area on the first floor near the elevator area is renovated and modern. However, once you get upstairs, it's like a step back in time to the 70's.

[webbage]

The reason I think this may be precisely why it's bad is my conversation with a woman from Miami who told me she had visited Providence last summer and found it dull and completely devoid of nightlife - and believe me none of these little emoticons can really do justice to my confusion over this - so I questioned her further and discovered she'd been to a convention and never really left the Mall!

Also - that is a very cool photograph, Garris.

I don't care what Brussat says, modernism's moment has lasted the better part of a century now and I don't see it actually fading anytime soon. New England may be trapped in a little amber bubble but the rest of the world is building some serious cutting edge design.

I continue to feel that we're still too close to the modernism of the 1950's-1970's to really appreciate it, and time will redeem the brutalists. Spare the dynamite - at least until 2030!

Weird. I've talked to New Yorkers who sometimes have to come up here and they've been simply amazed bby the mall. Apparently a carpeted mall is foreign to them.

[Garris]

The interior is nice, if you turn left inside the front door.

That's the new cancer center...

Well, ok, the blood lab lobby area on the first floor near the elevator area is renovated and modern. However, once you get upstairs, it's like a step back in time to the 70's.

They did what they could with that original lobby, actually accomplishing far nicer a transition than I thought they would. The original lobby screamed stark 1950's/60's and had concrete everywhere. They're warmed it up enormously.

The different floors have been renovated at different times. For example, the 12th floor (pathology) is absolutely gorgeous. The 5th floor (the medicine subspecialty clinics) looks like it was redone in the 1980's and is probably due for another freshening (it likely won't get). The 2nd floor was redone in the same motif as the lobby, and looks great.

- Garris

[Liamlunchtray]

Weird. I've talked to New Yorkers who sometimes have to come up here and they've been simply amazed bby the mall. Apparently a carpeted mall is foreign to them.

Speaking of which - They REALLY need to do something about the carpet in the mall. Its filthy, wrinkled, and held together in places with duct tape. Its really weird that they didnt use some sort of carpet square type system so they could have just replaced the problem spots.

[CtownMikey]

I noticed the mall carpet problem... they make so much money and exceed expectations... We should call and complain so they hurry up on that.

[Frankie811]

Speaking of which - They REALLY need to do something about the carpet in the mall. Its filthy, wrinkled, and held together in places with duct tape. Its really weird that they didnt use some sort of carpet square type system so they could have just replaced the problem spots.

Well, the carpet is almost 7 years old at some places and is heavily traveled. I'm more concerned about that friggin parking garage from hell. I'm not for capital punishment, but I would not hold it against anyone if they hung the architech of that monstrosity.

[Liamlunchtray]

Well, the carpet is almost 7 years old at some places and is heavily traveled. I'm more concerned about that friggin parking garage from hell. I'm not for capital punishment, but I would not hold it against anyone if they hung the architech of that monstrosity.

I really like the mall, but it is certainly the worst parking garage I have ever been in. Horrible. It wouldnt be as bad if everyone was driving Scions and MiniCoopers, but as we know the mall going car driving public is more likely to be in some SUV monstrosity.

Liam

(Enjoys Small Cars)

[gregw]

I really like the mall, but it is certainly the worst parking garage I have ever been in. Horrible. It wouldnt be as bad if everyone was driving Scions and MiniCoopers, but as we know the mall going car driving public is more likely to be in some SUV monstrosity.

Liam

(Enjoys Small Cars)

I vote we use the dynamite to blow up those SUV monstrosities.

[Liamlunchtray]

I vote we use the dynamite to blow up those SUV monstrosities.

I'm all for that! My wife (who drives a Scion Xb) feels that my Mazda 3 is "too big"