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210 Trade | EpiCentre


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11 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Until office workers come back en masse I am not sure the space is even marketable to any retail or food tenants.   Drive or walk through uptown at 6 pm on  a weeknight and do the same in Southend as I said like 2 different cities. 

Well that’s because SouthEnd has the retail and dining that people actually want. Until someone takes a chance on Uptown, it isn’t going to be comparable to SouthEnd in that regard with or without the employees returning. 

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2 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

Well that’s because SouthEnd has the retail and dining that people actually want. Until someone takes a chance on Uptown, it isn’t going to be comparable to SouthEnd in that regard with or without the employees returning. 

Plus the rent is extremely high uptown maybe it will fall as vacancies for ground floor space goes up.  Southend is a better mix of businesses and residents which uptown despite the growth in residential is still very tilted for workers working there. 

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Epicentre needs a full makeover and rebrand.  The brand right now has a negative connotation.  Downtown's Seattle Pacific Place should be a concept the owners should strive for.  Things open throughout the day.  Restaurants, shops, etc.  Turn it into a shopping destination Uptown.  Although there are some Epicentre nay sayers here, you can't argue that the design of the epicentre (open mall concept) is perfect for retailers to feed off of each other.  There's no place Uptown that can create that energy and there has obviously been no attempt for soft good retail so far (other than a few shops in over street).  Ally Center has a chance but not holding my breath.  Up and down Tryon would be perfect but rent is too high.  We tend to hear that line a lot when referring to retail spots uptown. 

This may be a noob question but why is rent so high when other cities across the country and even in state have a lot more retail.  Asheville, winston, greensboro, etc.  I know the logistics arent the same and the demand is higher here and cost per sqft is more, construction costs, but seems like Uptown is severely behind the retail game compared to a lot of cities and with Southend emerging as a retail district, may be left in the dust.  I have no problem with southend getting the retail, however, i just feel like a downtown of Charlotte's size should have more options than what it has.  What can the city do to help alleviate the cost or lure retailers?  Like the House of Lemond example of cheaper rent.  Build micro retails spots at the bottom of parking decks.  Need to be creative.  The fact that there is not a single store along Tryon  (our best strolling street uptown) that I can go in and buy something is a crime.

Edited by CharlotteWkndBuzz
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1 hour ago, ertley said:

With the caveat that I don't reside in Charlotte, so I don't have a total understanding of EpiCentre's present role or prominence in Charlotte social life, but I think it's a concept whose time has come and went. I think the last time I was there was 15? years ago, during the Thanksgiving holiday, and it was fine, but I never felt the urge to return.  I know when you're in your 20s going to places with maximal human interaction (at least pre-COVID) is frequently desirable, and I'm generally phased out of that, but I still feel the EpiCentre development is a legacy and continuation of attempts to make Uptown Happen, and it did its part in the aughts, when Stonewall and most of the high rise condos downtown weren't yet there, but downtown/uptown should be reaching a tipping point or critical mass soon enough to not require a sort of shopping mall of late night entertainment, but instead with 'organic' locuses of bars and restaurants that draw interesting crowds. The rail trail's ongoing metamorphosis is going to set the bar high, but hopefully the Market42 block will help extend the concept into downtown. I know that if I were visiting any other city--from L.A. to Detroit (weird, I know, but I was there last Labor Day) or New York or Miami, and someone suggested going to an EpiCentre-type location, it both wouldn't happen and I would seriously reevaluate the person who suggested it. 

100% agree.  Moved to Charlotte in December 2018 after living in Manhattan for 14 years.  A very kind and friendly Charlotte-based co-worker suggested I check out the Epicentre.  Not only did I find it poorly-designed, but the idea of packing in entertainment in a mall concept in an urban setting was off-putting and cheesy, in my opinion.  I'm sure parts of NYC have toyed with similar concepts in the city's history, but thankfully these were one-offs and weren't the only thing happening, from an entertainment perspective.  Something overly contrived about the whole concept.  Also hated the way individual businesses and concepts turned their back on the streetscape, and instead faced inward into some sort of open-air, multi-level atrium.  I'll take budding concepts at Camp North End and Optimist Hall over EpiCentre any day of the week.  Too bad there can't be some adaptive reuse textile mill in the heart of uptown to spur an alternative to EpiCentre.

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Katie Levans suggested a high-end retail complex and I think that's interesting. The only retail growing right now is either super high-end or low-end, so making it a legit regional destination for stores like Prada, etc. could help it survive as retail. Although South Park Mall already has a lot of the stores you might expect at a high-end shopping complex.

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2 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Katie Levans suggested a high-end retail complex and I think that's interesting. The only retail growing right now is either super high-end or low-end, so making it a legit regional destination for stores like Prada, etc. could help it survive as retail. Although South Park Mall already has a lot of the stores you might expect at a high-end shopping complex.

In order for that to work they would have to Renovate it, repaint, and rebrand completely.  I’m afraid that it’s reputation has gotten so bad that it might be too late though, so maybe it is best they turn it into office/light retail.  Plus Charlotte isn’t big enough for two high end destinations.  Atlanta has 2-3 high end spots and IMO it is overwhelming and also an inconvenience to have to go to multiple spots for all shopping (first world problems lol).

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2 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Katie Levans suggested a high-end retail complex and I think that's interesting. The only retail growing right now is either super high-end or low-end, so making it a legit regional destination for stores like Prada, etc. could help it survive as retail. Although South Park Mall already has a lot of the stores you might expect at a high-end shopping complex.

I think it has potential to become retail focused, but agree super high end retail can't be supported by residents here alone - visitors/tourists help that type of retail survive. It could be like an outdoor Brookfield Place or Hudson Yards on a smaller scale. Having high end retail not found anywhere else in the region (outside of Atlanta or DC) plus all the existing dining/bars could make Uptown more of a destination not just for Charlotteans, but also visitors. On the flip side, while it is the largest metro b/w DC and Atlanta, Charlotte is not exactly known as a trend setting fashion hub so it's probably a long shot.

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2 hours ago, Cityplanner said:

The near-total lack of retail uptown (other than a few drug stores and similar non-destination retail) is bizarre, given how large uptown is.  Look at downtown Greenville, SC: it's a nice mall, with plenty of high-end mall chains in it, and definitely a competitor to the local mall. 

Downtown Greenville is like an approachable small town though. Cute, built at human scale, and not overwhelming for parking (first hour free in all city garages). You can drive up, park, run into your hair salon, and head back out to your house in the suburbs relatively easy and it isn't that much more challenging than a mall. This compares to Uptown where area residents view is an an inconvenience to head Uptown if you don't absolutely have to be there. You'd likely end up on level 10 of a parking deck if you arrived on a Wednesday at 10AM and spend a small fortune on parking compared to that same hair salon in Greenville. 

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2 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Katie Levans suggested a high-end retail complex and I think that's interesting. The only retail growing right now is either super high-end or low-end, so making it a legit regional destination for stores like Prada, etc. could help it survive as retail. Although South Park Mall already has a lot of the stores you might expect at a high-end shopping complex.

I'm trying to think of any notable examples of dying malls and lifestyle centers that were able to re-brand and land tenants like Prada, et. without completely demolishing the previous center. The luxury brands aren't exactly known for being first movers / taking a chance on revitalizing something that was in decline. They are by and large all clustered in relatively obvious locations with the richest people on the planet. 

It would also be interesting to see if the crowd that can afford those stores would be in Uptown or other areas of the city. 

Edited by CLT2014
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39 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Downtown Greenville is like an approachable small town though. Cute, built at human scale, and not overwhelming for parking (first hour free in all city garages). You can drive up, park, run into your hair salon, and head back out to your house in the suburbs relatively easy and it isn't that much more challenging than a mall. This compares to Uptown where area residents view is an an inconvenience to head Uptown if you don't absolutely have to be there. You'd likely end up on level 10 of a parking deck if you arrived on a Wednesday at 10AM and spend a small fortune on parking compared to that same hair salon in Greenville. 

Good points. 

For Epicentre becoming like Hudson Yards: Hudson Yards is apparently failing.  Neiman Marcus is closing.  I've never been to the place, nor do I hear people talking about it much.

The Yelp reviews of the Epicentre make it sound like the only people who go there are 20-somethings and criminals.  And the directory shows very little of interest to people who aren't in that bracket.

But then again, Founders Hall has almost nothing of interest in it, either, so perhaps crime and appealing to 20-somethings aren't responsible for Epicentre failing.

Charlotte ought to get a retail anchor, like Greenville did (with Mast General Store).  Once a large retailer came downtown, other stores followed.  Maybe that's the solution?

 

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8 minutes ago, Cityplanner said:

Good points. 

For Epicentre becoming like Hudson Yards: Hudson Yards is apparently failing.  Neiman Marcus is closing.  I've never been to the place, nor do I hear people talking about it much.

The Yelp reviews of the Epicentre make it sound like the only people who go there are 20-somethings and criminals.  And the directory shows very little of interest to people who aren't in that bracket.

But then again, Founders Hall has almost nothing of interest in it, either, so perhaps crime and appealing to 20-somethings aren't responsible for Epicentre failing.

Charlotte ought to get a retail anchor, like Greenville did (with Mast General Store).  Once a large retailer came downtown, other stores followed.  Maybe that's the solution?

 

I have had conversations with all the people that work to bring things uptown, theres just very little interest from big retailers. Its why Legacy Union doesn't have a mall. It was part of the original plan to have 250k of contiguous retail space and it just didn't get enough interest.

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Honestly at this point maybe tear down some of the retail space and put up a mid rise apartment tower since not likely further hotel development there.  

This is why I don't really think Teppers plan for entertainment district is a good idea especially if it involves taxpayer money.  We need to let entertainment districts develop themselves as they are always more successful that way.  And the city sold this land at a discount to the developer Ghazi to build this so it was subsidized.  

 

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Out of curiosity, how did uptown support two large department stores and plenty of mall-type retail until around 1990?  Uptown was a lot smaller then, as was Charlotte as a whole, and SouthPark was still "the place" then as well, with Eastland maybe as close to uptown as Northlake is today. 

If it could support those stores back then, with worse demographics, I'm really perplexed as to why it can't now.  The post above about uptown being a pain to get to seems on point, but there are still lots of people who live and work uptown.

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2 hours ago, Cityplanner said:

Out of curiosity, how did uptown support two large department stores and plenty of mall-type retail until around 1990?  Uptown was a lot smaller then, as was Charlotte as a whole, and SouthPark was still "the place" then as well, with Eastland maybe as close to uptown as Northlake is today. 

If it could support those stores back then, with worse demographics, I'm really perplexed as to why it can't now.  The post above about uptown being a pain to get to seems on point, but there are still lots of people who live and work uptown.

IMO, I think another problem is most malls don’t keep up with what millennials or people in general want.  All these national chains were popular at one point in time but if you look at Instagram there are tons of new brands out there, it’s just that they don’t have brick and mortar locations.  If something like a mall or outdoor type concept opened uptown they will have to get creative instead of bringing the same boring basic crap that every mall in America has (Gap, American Eagle, Victoria’s Secret etc etc).  I think Atherton has done a good job so far bringing cool tenants.  

Edited by Temeteron
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Its a shame it would never pay the bills, but the epicenter is the best location in town for a large collection of small-stall retailers.  Prepared food, groceries and hard goods — a Reading Market but with some hard goods sellers mixed in. I think that is the only thing that could cater to the contrasting demographics at this particular part of uptown. 

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12 minutes ago, nyxmike said:

What about turning it into an open air public market like Pike Place in Seattle? 

Pike Place benefits from government ownership that offers more reasonable rents to farmers to make it sustainable. Epicentre is private and charging rent (due to being purchased for $130 million) than even large national chains find too high... which should be a sign that a small farmer or local business definitely can't afford those prices (or even reduced prices that private ownership could make a profit off). 

Edited by CLT2014
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On 8/7/2020 at 12:28 PM, CLT2014 said:

Pike Place benefits from government ownership that offers more reasonable rents to farmers to make it sustainable. Epicentre is private and charging rent (due to being purchased for $130 million) than even large national chains find too high... which should be a sign that a small farmer or local business definitely can't afford those prices (or even reduced prices that private ownership could make a profit off). 

Maybe the city can buy it.

Edited by Yeahdoug
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