210 Trade | EpiCentre

[urbanlover568]

39 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Calm down, guy/gal...wasn’t aimed at you. I’ve had plenty of friends that have worked there over the years including one being mugged too. I know it’s serious. I’m just saying in this sensitive world we live in, ppl are being politically correct on here...just call it as it is and don’t beat around the bush. 
 

I agree with you, the problem started way before Covid. Hence my original comment the owners wanted to do transition tenants for a long time. Enso didn’t like where it was headed and got out early. Downhill ever since. 

Enso was my favorite   Did they relocate or move? 

[Desert Power]

Always loved Enso as a good place to get a drink/bite later in the night.

[Yeahdoug]

Had some fun nights in epicenter 2010-2014. Been a long time since I’ve been there though. 

[#1Son]

This once thriving entertainment center is a ghost town.   It is really sad to see the cobblestone growing grass between it 

[atlrvr]

CIM skipped it's debt payment this month on Epicentre (both hotels are not affected).  They indicated they no longer plan to pay on the mortgage.  Unclear if they will look to restructure debt or allow the property to get foreclosed on.

[15895]

Crazy. 
 

epicenter, or “Epic” center as some people annoyingly mistakenly called it, was the place of Charlotte for quite a many years. 
 

it’s always a place I’d take people on light rail to, get off at the nice station and head into the thriving epicenter. Go to the movies, then go to bars, head over to the bars on college, then walk to amelies, Romare. It really filled a hole. 
 

The deterioration of epicenter brings charlotte’s downtown  quite a few notches from back in its heyday even despite the developments. It’s not longer a place I care that much to visit besides a couple bars disconnected on Graham, Latta Arcade and College. They’re far apart. 
 

much rather be in SouthEnd or NoDa where the liveliness is contiguous. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

I have a slightly different view here.

I moved to Charlotte in late 2018, and hated the epicenter from the moment I set foot in it.  Its design, its interaction with the rest of Uptown, and the crowd reminded me of another failed downtown project - The Landing in downtown Jacksonville (recently demolished).

I'd like to see a street-adjacent, "5th Street Nightlife Row," complete with international cuisine, convenience stores, pub-after-pub, bar-after-bar, small music venue after small music venue, weave in some micro-retail designer, artisan, and craftsmen shops.  Create a website for 5th Street Row, and perhaps find some way to create branded team-building experiences for the legions of professionals in Uptown who now have regular and reliable watering holes for team-building after work.

[15895]

5 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I have a slightly different view here.

I moved to Charlotte in late 2018, and hated the epicenter from the moment I set foot in it.  Its design, its interaction with the rest of Uptown, and the crowd reminded me of another failed downtown project - The Landing in downtown Jacksonville (recently demolished).

I'd like to see a street-adjacent, "5th Street Nightlife Row," complete with international cuisine, convenience stores, pub-after-pub, bar-after-bar, small music venue after small music venue, weave in some micro-retail designer, artisan, and craftsmen shops.  Create a website for 5th Street Row, and perhaps find some way to create branded team-building experiences for the legions of professionals in Uptown who now have regular and reliable watering holes for team-building after work.

I see that. But before 2010, Romare park didn’t exist, SouthEnd wasn’t really popular yet (NoDa was), it was amazing. So it was very novel. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[Temeteron]

12 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I have a slightly different view here.

I moved to Charlotte in late 2018, and hated the epicenter from the moment I set foot in it.  Its design, its interaction with the rest of Uptown, and the crowd reminded me of another failed downtown project - The Landing in downtown Jacksonville (recently demolished).

I'd like to see a street-adjacent, "5th Street Nightlife Row," complete with international cuisine, convenience stores, pub-after-pub, bar-after-bar, small music venue after small music venue, weave in some micro-retail designer, artisan, and craftsmen shops.  Create a website for 5th Street Row, and perhaps find some way to create branded team-building experiences for the legions of professionals in Uptown who now have regular and reliable watering holes for team-building after work.

The epicenter was actually an amazing place from 2008-2016ish. It’s sad to see how it declined just within a few years 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Temeteron

[RANYC]

1 minute ago, Temeteron said:

The epicenter was actually an amazing place from 2008-2016ish. It’s sad to see how it’s declined 

2016 was the year of the riots.  Would you say that may have instigated the decline?

[15895]

16 minutes ago, RANYC said:

2016 was the year of the riots.  Would you say that may have instigated the decline?

I think it is change in culture. The brewery scene, etc. I don’t really recall many breweries back then - not like today. 

The millennials (Im one) started turning 21 and  preferred the warehouse scene, breweries, food halls, more gritty settings, etc.  

I have nothing to back that up except anecdotal experiences. It was much more fun to go to a Food Truck rally, socialize and enjoy corn hole and stuff then it was to go to epicenter at that point. 
 

And I do remember on here, people derided SouthEnd as being nothing but bad quality stock built developments. Now, I think the sentiment is it’s a great thriving neighborhood and is probably sucking some energy from uptown. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

4 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I think it is change in culture. The brewery scene, etc. 

The millennials (Im one) started turning 21 and  preferred the warehouse scene, breweries, food halls, more gritty settings. 
 

I have nothing to back that up except anecdotal experiences. 

Speaking of which, I've secretly harbored a fantasy to see something like OMB...a traditional Munich-style Beer Garden, right smack-dab in the heart of Uptown, heavily landscaped and all.   Try to picture it.

Beer Garden 2.jfif

[15895]

Sorry to post so much consecutively, but I think your fantasy is what people like these days. And uptown definitely lacks that vibe. I think it lacks a brunch scene too which is in vogue these days. 
 

I mean. Compare Sycamore Brewery to Howl at the Moon or anywhere really in uptown. Or who would rather Brunch in uptown vs. say Optimist Hall. 
 

If uptown had developments like SouthEnd with it’s pretty great street presence, it would go a long way. Though, I don’t think any current projects with a Rail Yard like ground level is slated for uptown or would entertain a brewery, etc. uptown. 

[Temeteron]

52 minutes ago, RANYC said:

2016 was the year of the riots.  Would you say that may have instigated the decline?

Not really but it def accelerated it.  The trends and interests of people  shifted towards breweries.  And the variety of places has grown tremendously.  For those who remember “alive after 5” was really the best place to be on Thursdays (even though the beer selections were horrible and only had bud light and Michelob etc).  The rooftop 210 would be packed and before that it used to be at Wells fargo building off Tryon.  The thing about these types of complexes is, they are kind of like malls. As soon as 3, 4, 5 tenants close, along with high crime; things can turn downward spiral real fast.  And that’s basically what happened.  

Edited April 15, 2021 by Temeteron

[RANYC]

33 minutes ago, Temeteron said:

Not really but it def accelerated it.  The trends and interests of people  shifted towards breweries.  And the variety of places has grown tremendously.  For those who remember “alive after 5” was really the best place to be on Thursdays (even though the beer selections were horrible and only had bud light and Michelob etc).  The rooftop 210 would be packed and before that it used to be at Wells fargo building off Tryon.  The thing about these types of complexes is, they are kind of like malls. As soon as 3, 4, 5 tenants close, along with high crime; things can turn downward spiral real fast.  And that’s basically what happened.  

Get onboard with my idea for a Munich-style Beer Garden right in the heart of Uptown.  There's something about mixing greenspace, vegetation, and drinking that makes for a rich, inviting, transcendent experience.  Soften the harsh urban-scape with park-like revelry.  There's a brewery-anchored mixed-use development underway in North Meck.  Wonder if the same can be done in Uptown.

Edited April 15, 2021 by RANYC

[atl2clt]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

2016 was the year of the riots.  Would you say that may have instigated the decline?

This is such a tenuous connection that it shouldn't even be entertained on this thread. I'm sure we could make an entire list of major news events of 2016 and pull up our whiteboards to try to connect the dots. 2016 was also the year that the Panthers went to the Super Bowl. Is there some kind of tenuous connection there, as well?

The collapse of the Epicenter is, IMO, rooted in two key issues:

1. Design: As others have pointed out, the Epicenter is wholly lacking any semblance of green space, which makes it feel like a lifeless concrete box, filled only by hues of gray and brown. There is nothing Instagram-worthy about the Epicenter. It has the look and feel of a half-baked Downtown Disney, which is cool when you're with your family at Disney World, but not cool when you're with your friends in Charlotte, NC. Further, the Epicenter was seemingly brought to us by the same people who design hedge mazes and cornfield mazes. Have you ever tried walking from Moe's to Firehouse? I remember that simple journey involving way more confusion (and stairs) than necessary. 
2. Competition: The Charlotte brewery scene has, for better or worse, become the dominant social scene of this city. Fueled by Instagram FOMO, breweries fill the unique social space of being chill, while also exciting. There's usually no loud club music blaring through the speakers; there's more room to walk around without having to bump shoulders with people outside your group; you can bring your dog; you can go there in the middle of the day on a Saturday and sit outside in the sun without feeling like you're trapped inside. As the popularity of breweries has skyrocketed, traditional bars and entertainment venues have taken a hit. Epicenter was essentially a concentration of these outdated entertainment venues, built on a model of what was popular in 2006 (movie theaters, bowling alleys, etc.). 

Worst of all, the Epicenter does not appear to be easily convertible to other uses. Sure, it could converted to more retail. They could even add more shrubs and trees. But the design is so incredibly poor that we're still left with this labyrinthian maze of concrete where you can't see 80% of the businesses from the street and, even when you're inside, you have no idea what's around the corner or how to get from Point A to Point B. Idk what to do about this money pit. 

[atlrvr]

 

No matter what the future holds, we'll always have the memories.

 

[Madison Parkitect]

2 hours ago, atl2clt said:

This is such a tenuous connection that it shouldn't even be entertained on this thread. I'm sure we could make an entire list of major news events of 2016 and pull up our whiteboards to try to connect the dots. 2016 was also the year that the Panthers went to the Super Bowl. Is there some kind of tenuous connection there, as well?

The collapse of the Epicenter is, IMO, rooted in two key issues:

1. Design: As others have pointed out, the Epicenter is wholly lacking any semblance of green space, which makes it feel like a lifeless concrete box, filled only by hues of gray and brown. There is nothing Instagram-worthy about the Epicenter. It has the look and feel of a half-baked Downtown Disney, which is cool when you're with your family at Disney World, but not cool when you're with your friends in Charlotte, NC. Further, the Epicenter was seemingly brought to us by the same people who design hedge mazes and cornfield mazes. Have you ever tried walking from Moe's to Firehouse? I remember that simple journey involving way more confusion (and stairs) than necessary. 
2. Competition: The Charlotte brewery scene has, for better or worse, become the dominant social scene of this city. Fueled by Instagram FOMO, breweries fill the unique social space of being chill, while also exciting. There's usually no loud club music blaring through the speakers; there's more room to walk around without having to bump shoulders with people outside your group; you can bring your dog; you can go there in the middle of the day on a Saturday and sit outside in the sun without feeling like you're trapped inside. As the popularity of breweries has skyrocketed, traditional bars and entertainment venues have taken a hit. Epicenter was essentially a concentration of these outdated entertainment venues, built on a model of what was popular in 2006 (movie theaters, bowling alleys, etc.). 

Worst of all, the Epicenter does not appear to be easily convertible to other uses. Sure, it could converted to more retail. They could even add more shrubs and trees. But the design is so incredibly poor that we're still left with this labyrinthian maze of concrete where you can't see 80% of the businesses from the street and, even when you're inside, you have no idea what's around the corner or how to get from Point A to Point B. Idk what to do about this money pit. 

Absolutely right. It's designed so badly, with exactly the perfect mix of venues that were hot when it opened but not anymore. It's kind of amazing how precisely the trends and crowds moved from what Epicentre had to offer. Pins Mechanical and places like that would have probably gone into the Epicentre if this was 2008.

[RANYC]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:36 PM, atl2clt said:

This is such a tenuous connection that it shouldn't even be entertained on this thread. I'm sure we could make an entire list of major news events of 2016 and pull up our whiteboards to try to connect the dots. 2016 was also the year that the Panthers went to the Super Bowl. Is there some kind of tenuous connection there, as well?

The collapse of the Epicenter is, IMO, rooted in two key issues:

1. Design: As others have pointed out, the Epicenter is wholly lacking any semblance of green space, which makes it feel like a lifeless concrete box, filled only by hues of gray and brown. There is nothing Instagram-worthy about the Epicenter. It has the look and feel of a half-baked Downtown Disney, which is cool when you're with your family at Disney World, but not cool when you're with your friends in Charlotte, NC. Further, the Epicenter was seemingly brought to us by the same people who design hedge mazes and cornfield mazes. Have you ever tried walking from Moe's to Firehouse? I remember that simple journey involving way more confusion (and stairs) than necessary. 
2. Competition: The Charlotte brewery scene has, for better or worse, become the dominant social scene of this city. Fueled by Instagram FOMO, breweries fill the unique social space of being chill, while also exciting. There's usually no loud club music blaring through the speakers; there's more room to walk around without having to bump shoulders with people outside your group; you can bring your dog; you can go there in the middle of the day on a Saturday and sit outside in the sun without feeling like you're trapped inside. As the popularity of breweries has skyrocketed, traditional bars and entertainment venues have taken a hit. Epicenter was essentially a concentration of these outdated entertainment venues, built on a model of what was popular in 2006 (movie theaters, bowling alleys, etc.). 

Worst of all, the Epicenter does not appear to be easily convertible to other uses. Sure, it could converted to more retail. They could even add more shrubs and trees. But the design is so incredibly poor that we're still left with this labyrinthian maze of concrete where you can't see 80% of the businesses from the street and, even when you're inside, you have no idea what's around the corner or how to get from Point A to Point B. Idk what to do about this money pit. 

Look, I've no dog in this fight, and like much of the posts in all these threads, this is conjecture:

But seriously, uptown riots...trip to the super bowl...possibly the same kinds of driving factors???

The 2016 riots in Uptown Charlotte were meaningful to Epicentre's current misfortunes for a few reasons:

• Riots degrade inner city economics: There's a massive body of evidence pointing to riots as leaving deep economic scars in lots of downtowns/urban cores across the country, and Charlotte isn't any different.  Its deep corporate base, however, may make Charlotte a tad more resilient versus cities whose inner city businesses are heavily reliant on tourists and event business.
• Riots may cause a patronage swap:  Rioters take over.  Even post-riot, the scene of the riot becomes their new gathering place.  The people who once patronized businesses in the riot-scarred areas, don't return and certainly not with the same regularity and loyalty, and the rioters back-fill. 
• New business pipeline: Riot-stricken areas become less attractive for tenant prospects, especially in a market like Charlotte where other shopping areas seemingly removed from riot and looting risk do exist.

Can't forget the CEO, John Holaday, visiting town and getting shot in uptown on his way to a business meeting.  The stray bullet came from a gun in EpiCenter.  Rattled the psyche of most everyone I spoke with on my trading floor, and I've never set foot in EpiCenter since.

Yes, I dislike the design of Epicenter, but I also dislike the design of Metropolitan, and yet it has big box retail options that I sometimes find vital to access...and I make it work.  Competition, well, there will always be that.  Viability doesn't have to require the lack of it.

We are beyond the Riots

Uptown retail doesn't have to be a prisoner of the past, however.  We've successfully recruited new companies since 2016, firms like Honeywell, Truist, and now Robinhood and a host of others.  Retail and entertainment can flourish, separate from EpiCenter.  Let's hopefully get workers back, encourage more residential growth, and re-design uptown retail so that it's out of hidden tunnels like Overland Mall and on to the streets with easy accessibility to the general public.  And as a community, let's take the riot risk factor seriously.  It doesn't just go away, it ripples and it stews.   It can't be tolerated.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by RANYC

[atl2clt]

28 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Look, I've no dog in this fight, and like much of the posts in all these threads, this is conjecture:

But seriously, uptown riots...trip to the super bowl...possibly the same kinds of driving factors???

There's a massive body of evidence pointing to riots as leaving deep economic scars in lots of downtowns/urban cores across the country, and Charlotte isn't any different, although its corporate base may make it a tad more resilient. 

Since arriving in this town in late 2018, I've observed that uptown's massive office cultures don't really seem to linger in the numbers one would expect.  In plenty of cities, bankers grab beers or go do happy hour team bonding after work.  Here in Charlotte, they seem to race to their cars and bolt. 

EpiCenter feels estranged from the professional classes filling up its nearby office spaces.   Can't forget the CEO, John Holaday, visitig town and getting shot in uptown on his way to a business meeting.  The stray bullet came from a gun in EpiCenter.  Rattled the psyche of most everyone I spoke with on my trading floor, and I've never set foot in EpiCenter since.

Yes, I dislike the design of Epicenter, but I also dislike the design of Metropolitan, and yet it has big box retail options that I sometimes find vital to access...and I make it work.  Competition, well, there will always be that.  Viability doesn't have to require the lack of it.

I think it's a completely reasonable hypothesis that the riots had a negative economic impact on uptown, including the EpiCenter, and may have started or perhaps accelerated negative trends to which the EpiCenter was susceptible.  I'd also submit that the riots started or accelerated a broad-based weakening of patronage in uptown.  Epicenter needed everyone, including the ex-urbanites and suburbanites and their discretionary spending, and the riots diverted their dollars to emerging entertainment options (breweries, game rooms and all) in other areas that felt more inviting.

What if Epicenter just sucks? What if it's filled with crappy, outdated tenants in a poorly designed property? What if the property managers and property owners also suck, and they've been reluctant to change their business model despite clear signs to do otherwise? 

This doesn't need to be a weird politically-charged argument about how political demonstrations in 2016, through a long chain of loosely connected events, led to the economic distress of a property in Uptown in 2021. To my understanding, Epicenter was losing clout before 2016, before a business executive was shot in the area, and before the Panthers lost the Super Bowl. 

If Epicenter were a case study in an MBA program, they'd be studying a wide range of property-related and management-related issues. The word "riots", I assure you, would not enter the discussion. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by atl2clt
Grammar

[RANYC]

11 minutes ago, atl2clt said:

What if Epicenter just sucks? What if it's filled with crappy, outdated tenants in a poorly designed property? What if the property managers and property owners also suck, and they've been reluctant to change their business model despite clear signs to do otherwise? 

This doesn't need to be a weird politically-charged argument about how political demonstrations in 2016, through a long chain of loosely connected events, led to the economic distress of a property in Uptown in 2021. To my understanding, Epicenter was losing clout before 2016, before a business executive was shot in the area, and before the Panthers lost the Super Bowl. 

If Epicenter were a case study in an MBA program, they'd be studying a wide range of property-related and management-related issues. The word "riots", I assure you, would not enter the discussion. 

If we're studying inner city property management strategy, operational effectiveness, and resiliency, and we ignore "riots and social justice issues" as risk factors, well then I might just change MBA programs.

Edited April 16, 2021 by RANYC

[Norm2]

37 minutes ago, RANYC said:

If we're studying inner city property management strategy, operational effectiveness, and resiliency, and we ignore "riots and social justice issues" as risk factors, well then I might just change MBA programs.

Riots are not a factor in the demise of the Epicenter. Full. Stop. Is the perception/reality of crime in the Epicenter one part of why is failing? Definitely.

[RANYC]

8 minutes ago, norm21499 said:

Riots are not a factor in the demise of the Epicenter. Full. Stop. Is the perception/reality of crime in the Epicenter one part of why is failing? Definitely.

Businesses pick up the pieces after Charlotte riots | wcnc.com

OK, so ignore this link. Total non-issue in the recent history of retail and entertainment potential in Charlotte.  The mention of what happened to EpiCenter businesses (along with other Uptown businesses) in this article had no lasting effect, and didn't scare aware any potential patrons.  This kind of disruption is hardly fathomable or barely registers in South Park or Ballantyne, but even still, in Uptown, I'm to understand it as mere vapor-ware?  

Yes, I agree that crime and the perception of crime are huge problems for Epicenter.  Perception of crime being the bigger problem.  Perception of crime being a major risk factor.  If one were to study it, I wouldn't be surprised at the finding that Perception of crime intensified as a risk factor because of the riots.

Edited April 16, 2021 by RANYC

[atl2clt]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

And as a community, let's take the riot risk factor seriously.  It doesn't just go away, it ripples and it stews.   It can't be tolerated.

 

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

If we're studying inner city property management strategy, operational effectiveness, and resiliency, and we ignore "riots and social justice issues" as risk factors, well then I might just change MBA programs.

This so sorely misses the mark that it actually bothers me. 

Throughout my career, I have handled more commercial real estate documents than I can count. I have never seen risk factor language to the effect that a property faces elevated risks of racially or politically charged demonstrations (or "riots"). This is such a distortion of how the commercial real estate markets operate that I have to dig in here. Investors and real estate firms, surely, are looking at a variety of socioeconomic, cultural and demographic factors when evaluating property risks, but the underlying evaluation is always X's and O's. It's Excel spreadsheets; it's cashflow evaluations; it's looking at the solvency of tenants and borrowers. To put it simply, it is really, really boring. 

I have never participated in a conversation (nor heard of any conversation) where parties said, "You know what? There were riots back in Charlotte in 2016. Can we get some additional disclosure about the risk of riots at this property?" That conversation doesn't happen in boardrooms or on conference calls. It happens here, though, when a conversation about a failing property is somehow pulled into the realm of politics.  

The only time I ever see the word "riot" come up in a commercial real estate context (which it routinely does), is in boilerplate language for force majeure clauses. Example: "Events of Force Majeure include, but are not limited to, explosion, structural collapse, chemical contamination, act of war, terrorism, invasion, blockade, embargo, riot, public disorder, violent demonstrations, insurrection, rebellion, civil commotion and sabotage." 

That's the extent of it. I need to nip this in the bud because there is no reason that anyone perusing this forum should think that the commercial real estate markets are fixated on abstract risks of political demonstrations. They are resolutely not. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by atl2clt
Grammar

[RANYC]

19 minutes ago, atl2clt said:

 

This so sorely misses the mark that it actually bothers me. 

Throughout my career, I have handled more commercial real estate documents than I can count. I have never seen risk factor language to the effect that a property faces elevated risks of racially or politically charged demonstrations (or "riots"). This is such a distortion of how the commercial real estate markets operate that I have to dig in here. Investors and real estate managers, surely, are looking at a variety of socioeconomic, cultural and demographic factors when evaluating property risks, but the underlying evaluation is always X's and O's. It's Excel spreadsheets; it's cashflow evaluations; it's looking at the solvency of tenants and borrowers. To put it simply, it is really, really boring. 

I have never participated in a conversation (nor heard of any conversation) where parties said, "You know what? There were riots back in Charlotte in 2016. Can we get some additional disclosure about the risk of riots at this property?" That conversation doesn't happen in boardrooms or on conference calls. It happens here, though, when a conversation about a failing property is somehow pulled into the realm of politics.  

The only time I ever see the word "riot" come up in a commercial real estate context (which it routinely does), is in boilerplate language for force majeure clauses. Example: "Events of Force Majeure include, but are not limited to, explosion, structural collapse, chemical contamination, act of war, terrorism, invasion, blockade, embargo, riot, public disorder, violent demonstrations, insurrection, rebellion, civil commotion and sabotage." 

That's the extent of it. I need to nip this in the bud because there is no reason that anyone perusing this forum should think that the commercial real estate markets are fixated on abstract risks of political demonstrations. They are resolutely not. 

First, never said it had to be a fixation, just a contributing factor.

Second, riot risk and corresponding white flight are absolutely nothing new.  Heavily documented phenomena since the '60s, perhaps even earlier.  Detroit '67 riots.  Inner city riots happen, and while the news passes, legions of people sort of write off those areas and are slow to or even never return.

Third, your real estate documents notwithstanding, damage from rioting and looting are certainly in a standard insurance policy, and such claims were up in city centers all over the country last year, adding insult to COVID injury.

Happy to drop this and move on.  No reason whatsoever that we need to come to agreement.  Great chatting with you!  Goodnight.

Edited April 16, 2021 by RANYC