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Some of you guys love blaming EVERYTHING on the evil transportation center. We understand what you really mean though.  Just moved back to town after being gone most of the last 14 years.  Walked

if dear leader can grab crotches, i say why not all of us?  he has jesus' blood in him you know?    

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11 minutes ago, atl2clt said:

What if Epicenter just sucks? What if it's filled with crappy, outdated tenants in a poorly designed property? What if the property managers and property owners also suck, and they've been reluctant to change their business model despite clear signs to do otherwise? 

This doesn't need to be a weird politically-charged argument about how political demonstrations in 2016, through a long chain of loosely connected events, led to the economic distress of a property in Uptown in 2021. To my understanding, Epicenter was losing clout before 2016, before a business executive was shot in the area, and before the Panthers lost the Super Bowl. 

If Epicenter were a case study in an MBA program, they'd be studying a wide range of property-related and management-related issues. The word "riots", I assure you, would not enter the discussion. 

If we're studying inner city property management strategy, operational effectiveness, and resiliency, and we ignore "riots and social justice issues" as risk factors, well then I might just change MBA programs.

Edited by RANYC
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37 minutes ago, RANYC said:

If we're studying inner city property management strategy, operational effectiveness, and resiliency, and we ignore "riots and social justice issues" as risk factors, well then I might just change MBA programs.

Riots are not a factor in the demise of the Epicenter. Full. Stop. Is the perception/reality of crime in the Epicenter one part of why is failing? Definitely.

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8 minutes ago, norm21499 said:

Riots are not a factor in the demise of the Epicenter. Full. Stop. Is the perception/reality of crime in the Epicenter one part of why is failing? Definitely.

Businesses pick up the pieces after Charlotte riots | wcnc.com

OK, so ignore this link. Total non-issue in the recent history of retail and entertainment potential in Charlotte.  The mention of what happened to EpiCenter businesses (along with other Uptown businesses) in this article had no lasting effect, and didn't scare aware any potential patrons.  This kind of disruption is hardly fathomable or barely registers in South Park or Ballantyne, but even still, in Uptown, I'm to understand it as mere vapor-ware?  

Yes, I agree that crime and the perception of crime are huge problems for Epicenter.  Perception of crime being the bigger problem.  Perception of crime being a major risk factor.  If one were to study it, I wouldn't be surprised at the finding that Perception of crime intensified as a risk factor because of the riots.

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19 minutes ago, atl2clt said:

 

This so sorely misses the mark that it actually bothers me. 

Throughout my career, I have handled more commercial real estate documents than I can count. I have never seen risk factor language to the effect that a property faces elevated risks of racially or politically charged demonstrations (or "riots"). This is such a distortion of how the commercial real estate markets operate that I have to dig in here. Investors and real estate managers, surely, are looking at a variety of socioeconomic, cultural and demographic factors when evaluating property risks, but the underlying evaluation is always X's and O's. It's Excel spreadsheets; it's cashflow evaluations; it's looking at the solvency of tenants and borrowers. To put it simply, it is really, really boring. 

I have never participated in a conversation (nor heard of any conversation) where parties said, "You know what? There were riots back in Charlotte in 2016. Can we get some additional disclosure about the risk of riots at this property?" That conversation doesn't happen in boardrooms or on conference calls. It happens here, though, when a conversation about a failing property is somehow pulled into the realm of politics.  

The only time I ever see the word "riot" come up in a commercial real estate context (which it routinely does), is in boilerplate language for force majeure clauses. Example: "Events of Force Majeure include, but are not limited to, explosion, structural collapse, chemical contamination, act of war, terrorism, invasion, blockade, embargo, riot, public disorder, violent demonstrations, insurrection, rebellion, civil commotion and sabotage." 

That's the extent of it. I need to nip this in the bud because there is no reason that anyone perusing this forum should think that the commercial real estate markets are fixated on abstract risks of political demonstrations. They are resolutely not. 

First, never said it had to be a fixation, just a contributing factor.

Second, riot risk and corresponding white flight are absolutely nothing new.  Heavily documented phenomena since the '60s, perhaps even earlier.  Detroit '67 riots.  Inner city riots happen, and while the news passes, legions of people sort of write off those areas and are slow to or even never return.

Third, your real estate documents notwithstanding, damage from rioting and looting are certainly in a standard insurance policy, and such claims were up in city centers all over the country last year, adding insult to COVID injury.

Happy to drop this and move on.  No reason whatsoever that we need to come to agreement.  Great chatting with you!  Goodnight.

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Epicentre's decline started towards the tail end of Enso's life.  It was a culmination of things, not just one singular thing.  As someone mentioned above, there was a shift in what people liked to do.  When I first moved here, the club scene was huge.  Club Crush (where the Francis now sits, formerly, Novel Station).  Alley Cats, The Forum, Bar Charlotte.  That's what you did everyday from Wednesday through Saturday.  There weren't breweries, top golf, white water center, etc.  The only thing in South End was Uptown Cab and Nikko.

Fast forward to today and it needs some help.  We can stop dreaming about it being razed and something else being built...the thing isn't going anywhere.  So, let's just be hopeful for it's future.  It needs a massive overhaul, rebranding is a must, and I really think with the right tenant shuffle, this thing can get back on track.  It has two attached hotels (within a block radius of 7 total), across from the Ritz, close to the arena, direct light rail access...CTC redevelopment will def play an important role in this as well, but life can be revived in the Epicentre for sure.  

*Someone jokingly on here I think said we should just turn the whole thing into a casino lol.  That would be awesome...movie theater turn into a giant sports book.  My dream...

Edited by CharlotteWkndBuzz
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It definitely needs some upgrades now. I'd like to see them find a way to encourage small local businesses almost like the micro retail at the RailYard, maybe a small food hall in one of the larger spaces that are unoccupied. 

Provide community events, make it the living room of uptown. 

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25 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

In Nashville this morning.  Look at 5th and Broadway development on the site of their old convention center sound familiar to the Epicenter?  An office tower with Alliance Bernstein as the anchor developed by Spectrum of Charlotte and an apartment tower.  They have an Apple store, lots of retail and a food hall and National Museum of African American Music.  Now granted this is right on Broadway bar and entertainment strip and they gets millions more tourists than Charlotte.  It was a simple L shaped design not all these pathways and corridors like Epicenter.  Now I would love to see Spectrum buy this out of foreclosure or from the lender and redevelop it and keep the 2 hotels and the parking garage below but everything else to go.  Maybe an apartment tower and retail like this.  

HOMEPAGE - Fifth + Broadway (fifthandb.com)

5th + Broadway – Spectrum Companies (spectrumcos.com)

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From your pics, I see a far superior design to what's currently in place at Epicenter, but I also think that the adjustments needed in order for Epicenter to get to more of this design appear very doable.

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I quit going to the epicenter before games/concerts and random Friday nights because of the people hanging around and felt unsafe. Maybe I’m the problem. 
clean up the bus station, 

Edited by QClifer
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1 hour ago, Blue_Devil said:

When we say midrise, do we mean a 7 story stick built? or something in the 12-15 range?

at this point anything but I am betting you could do a mid rise structure but I think residential is the key to making this project work again.  

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1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

at this point anything but I am betting you could do a mid rise structure but I think residential is the key to making this project work again.  

That was meant for the Off Broardway shoes comment in the other thread lol:tw_expressionless:

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10 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Epicentre's decline started towards the tail end of Enso's life.  It was a culmination of things, not just one singular thing.  As someone mentioned above, there was a shift in what people liked to do.  When I first moved here, the club scene was huge.  Club Crush (where the Francis now sits, formerly, Novel Station).  Alley Cats, The Forum, Bar Charlotte.  That's what you did everyday from Wednesday through Saturday. 

And when did we work?  I can’t fathom going clubbing 4 nights in a row.

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40 minutes ago, Cityplanner said:

And when did we work?  I can’t fathom going clubbing 4 nights in a row.

"People don't dance no mo', all they do is diss" - Goodie  Mob, circa 1998

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6 hours ago, Cityplanner said:

And when did we work?  I can’t fathom going clubbing 4 nights in a row.

Lol I’m not saying I did that. Just saying each club had their popular nights that usually covered the bulk of the week. Basically, whichever night you wanted to go out, there was the go to club to go to that night. Point is, clubs were popular back then and were the bulk of the nightlife in Charlotte back then with no south end and no epicentre. 
 

As I was saying before you started to judge (I’m just messing) that there has been a gradual shift in what people like to do socially. And imo, it’s more of the outdoorsy/active lifestyle. Anyplace you can grab a beer and (insert random activity) is what ppl like to do now. Grab a beer and throw an axe/hit golf balls/dog park/WWC/patios/rooftops/breweries, etc. And to get back on track, this is probably the reason we won’t see a single club reopen in the epicentre’s future. I have no problem with live music venues like howl at the moon and tin roof but I already know howl at the moon isn’t coming back. 

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13 hours ago, QClifer said:

I quit going to the epicenter before games/concerts and random Friday nights because of the people hanging around and felt unsafe. Maybe I’m the problem. 
clean up the bus station, 

You have hit the nail on the head. All of the homeless people and crime around the complex which is in large part due to the bus depot being right there is why people including myself quit visiting. It just doesn’t seem like to me Epicentre management and the City of Charlotte were doing enough to combat the problem and still aren’t to this day. 

Edited by gman430
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Epicentre is really just the wrong use of the site.

A block surrounded by a Ritz-Carlton, BofA office buildings and business-oriented hotels ought to have things that appeal to higher-income office workers. 

Get rid of the businesses (if any remain) that attract a rough crowd and rebuild the site so that is elegant, it's easily accessible from the Ritz-Carlton and BofA office buildings and hotels, and so that it's not accessible from the bus station.

And then re-tenant it.  Bring in a small collection of high-end retail stores (things that ought to be in Founders Hall, but aren't) and business-oriented restaurants.

As Northlake Mall empties out, the stores that were on its upper level may choose to come to the Epicentre: an Apple store and a few others that I see on its directory: Chico's, Loft and White House Black Market are certainly stores that would appeal to some office workers uptown.  (Wow, where did all of the nicer store at Northlake go?)

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6 hours ago, gman430 said:

You have hit the nail on the head. All of the homeless people and crime around the complex which is in large part due to the bus depot being right there is why people including myself quit visiting. It just doesn’t seem like to me Epicentre management and the City of Charlotte were doing enough to combat the problem and still aren’t to this day. 

In theory, an entertainment complex with drinking would be well-placed adjacent to a node of mass transit.  Such placement offers greater access to multi-model patrons, and provides a non-car alternative to intoxicated revelers.  I've not been around Charlotte's Uptown bus terminal enough to have an opinion on whether it's a source of crime for a venue like Epicenter.  There's nothing inherently dangerous about a bus station as far as I know.  And while the homeless may be uncomfortable to look at, especially when shopping  or reveling, does homelessness itself pose a risk of violence to the onlooker?  Not denying, however, that tons of people don't want to be in or near spaces where they're visually reminded of homelessness and poverty, and make relatively quick leaps associating these situations with the threat of crime and harm.   

6 minutes ago, Cityplanner said:

Epicentre is really just the wrong use of the site.

A block surrounded by a Ritz-Carlton, BofA office buildings and business-oriented hotels ought to have things that appeal to higher-income office workers. 

Get rid of the businesses (if any remain) that attract a rough crowd and rebuild the site so that is elegant, it's easily accessible from the Ritz-Carlton and BofA office buildings and hotels, and so that it's not accessible from the bus station.

And then re-tenant it.  Bring in a small collection of high-end retail stores (things that ought to be in Founders Hall, but aren't) and business-oriented restaurants.

As Northlake Mall empties out, the stores that were on its upper level may choose to come to the Epicentre: an Apple store and a few others that I see on its directory: Chico's, Loft and White House Black Market are certainly stores that would appeal to some office workers uptown.  (Wow, where did all of the nicer store at Northlake go?)

I can agree with this...

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