210 Trade | EpiCentre

[15895]

When It was successful it felt very urban to me. I think the format is for the most part good. 

I think the lack of growth and lack of place of the surrounding area is what ultimately killed the development. Particularly with the rise of SouthEnd. West of Tryon just rapidly falls apart to parking lots, grass fields, gravel fields. 

True it’s close to Trade/Tryon, but these days, not enough people think “I think I’m going to head out to Trade/Tryon, grab a beer and catch a game” or “I think I’ll go to the coffee place and read a book.”  Not too many people randomly want to hang out with a friend for get lunch near trade/Tryon. If you’re on light rail… it seems too tempting to just bypass uptown for NoDa or SouthEnd or Optimist Hall these days. With more flexible work (less patrons during work hours) on top of other areas of entertainment have emerged and gained large mass (and NoDa now not as limited by parking thanks to light rail), Plaza still around. Epicenter lost the leisure/hangout crowd too. 

If Levine would just get off his butt and do something with his land… it would really help the epicenter IMO. Until then. I think the struggle will be real outside of catering to office workers M-F. South of College and west of Brooklyn, Uptown is just not great. Mostly due to Government facilities and Levine choking off redevelopment or growth. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Madison Parkitect]

42 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Except instead of being suburban it's right in a downtown and easily accessible by transit or on foot for many. What's wrong with that?

Because the typical non-luxury malls are dying. People don't go to them anymore.

[JRCLT]

Pretty sure the issue was more the tenants than the actual layout itself…nooks and crannies are one thing that makes urban places “whimsical” and certainly I’ve been been there after it’s fall never I don’t think in it’s prime (Mar 2019) but it definitely felt worth exploring even at that time. In terms of “opening outward” I can see that less of an issue with the layout and more the facade. Something that could be renovated to include more space facing the street instead of what really is just dead zones…

[carolinaboy]

This is a similar type of retail spot in Los Angeles. I notice a Target. I think a Target like this would be successful in Uptown and would be a great draw for Queen City Quarter. Photo: Paul Wright, Flickr

[Madison Parkitect]

Target wouldn't go there when they already have the midtown store, but a Nordstrom Rack might be a decent tenant, honestly. They're big enough to take up one of the bigger spaces there, it's high-end enough that they could sell to the uptown crowd if they got the right merchandise mix in there, and the closest one is in Pineville. 

[RANYC]

32 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Target wouldn't go there when they already have the midtown store, but a Nordstrom Rack might be a decent tenant, honestly. They're big enough to take up one of the bigger spaces there, it's high-end enough that they could sell to the uptown crowd if they got the right merchandise mix in there, and the closest one is in Pineville. 

Ding ding ding jackpot - in complete agreement.  I’d go there more often but just too long a drive for me, and while the light rail goes down there, I don’t want to cross the expansive pedestrian death trap that is south blvd.  Rack at QCQ could be a real winner.  
 

Id actually go to a redone QCQ over South Park mall if they could curate the urban version of a selection of those stores, but I recall someone posting here that Simon restricts where these stores can set up in the region, no?  But an app-driven streetcar ride to QCQ for some shopping could be an enjoyable outing, assuming I don’t have to fear getting robbed on my return home.

[15895]

The ever elusive retail in uptown that will not come to fruition for a very long time, if ever. 

I’d look to Atlanta as to a benchmark of what Charlotte likely would support. Atlanta is arguably - development/build-out - very close to what the future of urban Charlotte likely will look like, IMO.

There’s really not many people who live convenient to Epicenter to support neighborhood traffic. For a lot of uptown residents even, it’s probably faster and more convenient to just go to Midtown (or a mini SouthEnd) Target. Maybe if there was a mass of retail and restaurants along College, Brevard etc it could naturally draw maybe more. But there’s likely just not a lot of people that would prefer to walk there over drive to midtown. 
 

I mean. For people living along Brooklyn f/k/a Stonewall, or around Romare park, the homes in 1st ward, etc. it seems like it’s faster to drive to Midtown Target in addition to loading up the car, further errands. A smaller urban Target in SouthEnd seems like it could attract less overlapping customers than an epicenter one. 

These other stores such as Nordstrom Rack, etc. I’m not in the retail industry, but it seems like you could get (1) much cheaper real estate in a shopping center that has complimentary retailers beside you (2) larger catchment of Charlotteans who wouldn’t want to drive to epicenter Charlotte for Nordstrom Rack. 

Uptown most likely just isn’t going to have anything beyond what Atlanta has in downtown. SouthEnd, I think you’ll see that type of retail. 
 

That’s just my opinion after a longgg time of waiting for retail. And being disappointed a many of time. Particularly when Ivey’s was being renovated for retail and it was all but certain it was going to be an urban outfitters but I guess than was an UP myth. Many times retail just hasn’t panned out. So. I’m a little pessimistic on those odds of an H&M, etc. 

[KJHburg]

You put a Nordstrom Rack (great idea) along with a TJ Maxx and people will be there at QCQ.   Uptown workers, uptown residents, intown residents who live along the Blue line,  visitors.  Those 2 retailers even one of them could draw the shoppers in and help other tenants.  Imagine people taking the train from a nearby intown neighborhood on Black Friday or some other big sale day and shopping and heading home without parking worries.  It can happen but only with the right tenants. 

[RANYC]

45 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The ever elusive retail in uptown that will not come to fruition for a very long time, if ever. 

I’d look to Atlanta as to a benchmark of what Charlotte likely would support. Atlanta is arguably - development/build-out - very close to what the future of urban Charlotte likely will look like, IMO.

There’s really not many people who live convenient to Epicenter to support neighborhood traffic. For a lot of uptown residents even, it’s probably faster and more convenient to just go to Midtown (or a mini SouthEnd) Target. Maybe if there was a mass of retail and restaurants along College, Brevard etc it could naturally draw maybe more. But there’s likely just not a lot of people that would prefer to walk there over drive to midtown. 
 

I mean. For people living along Brooklyn f/k/a Stonewall, or around Romare park, the homes in 1st ward, etc. it seems like it’s faster to drive to Midtown Target in addition to loading up the car, further errands. A smaller urban Target in SouthEnd seems like it could attract less overlapping customers than an epicenter one. 

These other stores such as Nordstrom Rack, etc. I’m not in the retail industry, but it seems like you could get (1) much cheaper real estate in a shopping center that has complimentary retailers beside you (2) larger catchment of Charlotteans who wouldn’t want to drive to epicenter Charlotte for Nordstrom Rack. 

Uptown most likely just isn’t going to have anything beyond what Atlanta has in downtown. SouthEnd, I think you’ll see that type of retail. 
 

That’s just my opinion after a longgg time of waiting for retail. And being disappointed a many of time. Particularly when Ivey’s was being renovated for retail and it was all but certain it was going to be an urban outfitters but I guess than was an UP myth. Many times retail just hasn’t panned out. So. I’m a little pessimistic on those odds of an H&M, etc. 

I'm sorry, but I don't see Charlotte's Uptown or even Center City replicating the experience on foot in Atlanta, and I'm quite happy about it. 

[RANYC]

I've been to Cape Town 3 times, and was reminiscing with a friend of mine and hearkened back to our time at the Old Biscuit Mill in Cape Town, and thought the Mill there might be a decent template for the Epicentre re-make.  It's where culinary arts, local design, and artisanal culture come together for a differentiated, retail experience.  Add in some live music, and I think you could have a real draw and the epicentre space might make sense for such a concept...

 

[KJHburg]

QCQ marketing brochure

https://www.cbre.com/resources/fileassets/US-SMPL-87348/2f0242c6/0fadb0b2-0e44-47a7-af7d-4cfc2eb3f5ea.pdf

[dylansukkert]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

QCQ marketing brochure

https://www.cbre.com/resources/fileassets/US-SMPL-87348/2f0242c6/0fadb0b2-0e44-47a7-af7d-4cfc2eb3f5ea.pdf

Nice to see two of the units in “negotiations” 

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

QCQ marketing brochure

https://www.cbre.com/resources/fileassets/US-SMPL-87348/2f0242c6/0fadb0b2-0e44-47a7-af7d-4cfc2eb3f5ea.pdf

horrible brochure.  poorly written - grammatical errors.  I'll need more proof to be convinced that epicenter is not just some distressed & discarded asset with no real capital commitments behind its improvement.  Those renderings are part of a narrative, but won't be followed with actual construction anytime soon.

[atlrvr]

9 hours ago, RANYC said:

horrible brochure.  poorly written - grammatical errors.  I'll need more proof to be convinced that epicenter is not just some distressed & discarded asset with no real capital commitments behind its improvement.  Those renderings are part of a narrative, but won't be followed with actual construction anytime soon.

I think this is correct.

The lender is a trust that doesn't have any capital.  The loan servicer has limited capital, and will look to reimburse themselves from the proceeds whenever the property is eventually sold.  The investor directing the trust has to improve any expenditures, and since ultimately they will bear any losses, are going to have to be convinced any money spent will have a positive return on value.

The way this debt was placed, doesn't allow for easy management in foreclosure situations.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

That CVS has seen better days. Don’t mind a drug store in here but at the same time I feel like this spot could be better utilized in a future renovated epicentre. It’s in one of the best locations of the epi. Cold section is severely lacking and out of stock a lot of times. Lot of items are now tagged (anti theft) which tells me a lot of stealing going on. Not many places to buy random necessities uptown so I don’t know if I would want cvs to leave but I hope it improves over the course of the epicentre revamp.  I want this place to succeed. Nowhere in uptown has this kind of concentrated retail that we all want. Really hope new owners can turn this place around. 

[15895]

2 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

That CVS has seen better days. Don’t mind a drug store in here but at the same time I feel like this spot could be better utilized in a future renovated epicentre. It’s in one of the best locations of the epi. Cold section is severely lacking and out of stock a lot of times. Lot of items are now tagged (anti theft) which tells me a lot of stealing going on. Not many places to buy random necessities uptown so I don’t know if I would want cvs to leave but I hope it improves over the course of the epicentre revamp.  I want this place to succeed. Nowhere in uptown has this kind of concentrated retail that we all want. Really hope new owners can turn this place around. 

Epicenter is connected to the Light Rail, Streetcar, Bus Hub, oversky mall with direct access to Bank of America Corp. HQ, close to Truist Bank HQ, next to NBA arena, a block away from the main Trade/Tryon Sq. There are literally 2 (technically 3) hotels on it…

Location, developments, jobs, skyscraper, mass transit… what is the problem… (and no, it’s not the bus riders.) 

 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:52 AM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Epicenter is connected to the Light Rail, Streetcar, Bus Hub, oversky mall with direct access to Bank of America Corp. HQ, close to Truist Bank HQ, next to NBA arena, a block away from the main Trade/Tryon Sq. There are literally 2 (technically 3) hotels on it…

Location, developments, jobs, skyscraper, mass transit… what is the problem… (and no, it’s not the bus riders.) 

 

It's the homeless people?

[CLT2014]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:52 AM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Epicenter is connected to the Light Rail, Streetcar, Bus Hub, oversky mall with direct access to Bank of America Corp. HQ, close to Truist Bank HQ, next to NBA arena, a block away from the main Trade/Tryon Sq. There are literally 2 (technically 3) hotels on it…

Location, developments, jobs, skyscraper, mass transit… what is the problem… (and no, it’s not the bus riders.) 

 

Reality in Charlotte..... Mass transit isn't necessarily a plus for a night out on the town. It isn't a detractor.... But it also isn't enough.

[15895]

2 hours ago, Phillydog said:

It's the homeless people?

Policy failure. 

[KJHburg]

walked through the ground floor or main floor of the Epicenter today and all I saw was vacant storefronts except for CVS,  I think the 3 story building where several bars and restaurants were located but now all closed should be torn down and build some apartments there.   Other ideas they need some trees or greenery.  I have been in more beautiful places in urban Kazakhstan. 

The platform this sits on the parking garage below surely can withstand even some stick built apartments of 5-6 floors.  

Too bad that sign was vandalized about giving to the homeless.  I remember posting a photo of one I saw in Houston Galleria area.   

As for enhanced security I did not see any but it was broad daylight. 

[KJHburg]

Lets hear your ideas since many were confused by my residential aspect.  Something has to be done here and it is not just repositioned.   I think an infusion of residential would be good.  The entire place can not be torn down unless you buy out the hotels on the property as this is a huge commercial condo development. 

[15895]

20 hours ago, KJHburg said:

walked through the ground floor or main floor of the Epicenter today and all I saw was vacant storefronts except for CVS,  I think the 3 story building where several bars and restaurants were located but now all closed should be torn down and build some apartments there.   Other ideas they need some trees or greenery.  I have been in more beautiful places in urban Kazakhstan. 

The platform this sits on the parking garage below surely can withstand even some stick built apartments of 5-6 floors.  

Too bad that sign was vandalized about giving to the homeless.  I remember posting a photo of one I saw in Houston Galleria area.   

As for enhanced security I did not see any but it was broad daylight. 

The perfect visual example of the difference between urban development and urban planning. 7th st. Market even seems to have fallen among other pockets. 

IMO, the primary reason this structure is failing is more reflective of uptown as a neighborhood  than any problems besieged by the owners. It was easier to overlook the shortcomings  when you had 100,000+ office workers coming 5 days a week every week. 

It seems like uptown has less than 10 years ago. Lots of other cities (and SouthEnd) seem to be at pre-pandemic or has surpassed pre-pandemic in their urban areas. You could point to isolated areas of some office districts in other US cities; however, it’s a very small part of their urbanity whereas Charlotte is pretty much only uptown/SouthEnd and that’s it (NoDa & Plaza are simply too small to count.) 

Affordable housing, subsidized housing, holding developers accountable as possible for ground level, massive bike lane upgrades are the most important things Charlotte can do for uptown as a neighborhood.

IMO, A few hundred units of schmucks making 6 figures isn’t going to change anything. Honestly, the epicenter isn’t that great of an area to live at. College is very fast and blank concrete walls. Everything to the east is a wasteland.  We need several thousand units in the area to make a noticeable difference. Preferably Of all income brackets. But most importantly, the city just needs to invest in neighborhood amenities. Uptown is an economic engine so the investments IMO can economically be justified. 

Long story short.  Luxury apartments aren’t going to move the needle unless there’s a massive, massive increase of what has been being supplied at least. The fundamentals of uptown as a neighborhood are weak. Some people here get annoyed when people are critical over say Legacy Union but I mean I think Charlottes skyline is. Beautiful enough that I don’t need more skyscrapers to make it look like the bustling city I wish it actually was. I want leadership to pivot on uptown like most cities have already planned for in 2020. It’s so weird to me that Charlotte - IMO - is no longer an urban leader that it used to be. I’m ready for more progressive and liberal leadership. 

Me being critical doesn’t mean I like Charlotte less than others who are cheerleaders out of being supportive or whatever either. So. It’s just my way of showing my care and interest in Charlotte. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[L.A.native]

Let's be honest, if any apartments are ever built where the epicentre currently sits we all can be assured they'll be the same boring, overpriced, "luxury" apartments that are dotted all throughout suburbia. There is absolutely no affordable housing in uptown or even southend for that matter. Eventually the quantity of these units will grossly outnumber the amount of people who can afford them; if that hasn't happened already. Charlotte could very possibly be one financial collapse away from being the countrys next Detroit. 

 

Having said that, I think a concrete plan to save the Epicentre would benefit uptown far more than anything else. This is a very large complex that sits right across the street from Spectrum Center and within a stones throw of the blue line. Not to mention the renovation outside the arena the Hornets are wanting to build. The Epicentre needs businesses that are unique, restaurants and breweries that aren't chains. Charlotte loves to aspire to be a "world class city" (whatever that is), why not bring world class restaurants from acclaimed chefs? What about something indoors for all ages? Like an escape room. Or maybe even a mini outdoor Waterpark? And while we're at it we may as well find somewhere on that property to build a ferris wheel (it seems like all the "world class" cities have one) .

Anything but apartments. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by L.A.native

[lit]

5 hours ago, L.A.native said:

What about something indoors for all ages? Like an escape room. Or maybe even a mini outdoor Waterpark? And while we're at it we may as well find somewhere on that property to build a ferris wheel (it seems like all the "world class" cities have one) .

Anything but apartments. 

What about a Bowling Alley and a Movie Theater? Let's throw in a retro Diner while we're at it! But I digress, a splash-pad would probably be pretty good here, and I agree: F apartments. They had plans to build condos above it at one point but built a hotel instead.

Edited December 14, 2022 by lit

[TheOneRJ]

8 hours ago, L.A.native said:

Charlotte could very possibly be one financial collapse away from being the countrys next Detroit. 

This is a little dramatic. Unaffordable luxury apartments isn’t exclusive to Charlotte and Charlotte won’t be in any worse condition than any other mid tier city in the country if said financial collapse were to happen. It isn’t 2008 and the city’s economy has significantly expanded beyond being solely reliant on banks.

Apartments at the Epicenter isn’t a bad idea, even if it is the same overpriced ones all over Uptown. Chain restaurants and destination stores in particular (Apple, ZARA) are also needed as they appeal to broad demographics who will actually shop there and visitors to the city. I’ve been a long advocate of a ferris wheel and/or aquarium in Uptown and somehow including one in this development would do wonders for longevity. The fix to the Epicenter really isn’t as difficult as some of you seem to believe… there are countless examples of similar developments all over the country that are thriving.