210 Trade | EpiCentre

[83alphaunder]

Well the Business Journal confirms today that a two story, 11,000 sq ft retail space will be created in the base of Charlotte Plaza at the corner of College and Trade. It is currently being marketed by CBRE.

Charlotte Plaza isn't on College and Trade... Its on College and 4th. I think we are all referring to the omni hotel...

[atlrvr]

The article in the Bizjournals confirms what I reported last week...that the Omni corner will go retail, likely with a restaurant. Charlotte PLaza SHOULD go retail....even though their lobby is awkward with the placement of the escelators against the facade, at least the 210 Trade sales center could be opened up to the street with minimal cost.

[AuLukey]

So I now have a new favorite place to park. I went uptown today and decided to give this deck a shot. I went right around lunch hour but getting in and out of this deck was a breeze. The lack of reserved parking was what made this deck so easy to navigate. I knew I could park anywhere. There are definitely a lot of finishing touches left but, all in all, I left satisfied.

As for the complex itself, I didn't realize how they broke up the design on the base of aLoft facing the inner courtyards. They made it appear to be several buildings attached to one another, pretty convincingly to the untrained eye too, I might add.

Here is the parking deck entrance and the new Whisky River sign on Trade Street:

[Charlotte_native]

I walked through the open courtyard parts of Epicentre last night for the first time. It is much larger once inside than it appears from driving or walking by. I can't wait until everything is open there -- I have to say I was very happy with the feel and the way the various elements are divided and connected.

[Appetite for Construction]

I walked through the open courtyard parts of Epicentre last night for the first time. It is much larger once inside than it appears from driving or walking by. I can't wait until everything is open there -- I have to say I was very happy with the feel and the way the various elements are divided and connected.

I agree, the courtyard is pretty big, but not so big that it doesn't feel cozy; this will be a great spot for some outdoor furniture. Once TTT goes up and the Ritz-Carlton is finished, there will be some good building views from inside the courtyard area.

[cha]

i talked to one of the architects a while back and he said they were going for a European feel when walking between those buildings (aloft).. does it feel that way? I know the aesthetics are not finished yet.

[uptownliving]

Well with all of the EFIS the "feel of Europe" I think has been thrown out the window. The feeling I got while walking around EpiCentre was that of a factory.

[Andyc545]

EFIS Aside, certainly walking through those openings at night time gave a different feeling than any place else in Charlotte, even without any places opened yet at EpiCentre. Once all of the neon lights are installed, crowds of all hours, and places open for business, I imagine walking through the openings bounded by aLoft and the rest of EpiCentre of a feeling of Toronto or Manhattan, where things are dense and the neon reflects off of the buildings and ground setting this "fun- where you want to be" tone. I can't say I've been to Europe, so I'd leave that opinion for someone else, but certainly the feeling already that you get being on the site is that it is something different for Charlotte.

Oh- and if you haven't had the opportunity to walk through yet, take a minute to take it in. The new perspective was well worth the detour through there. When I get my new camera, I'll be sure to let those that don't have the opportunity a sneak peak inside.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Andyc545

[dubone]

It is definitely not an authentic European feel, even if you imagine cafe seating, etc. As uptownliving indicated, the lower quality of building material for both the buildings and the sidewalk really give it a distinctly American feel. But I give them credit for trying to make a decent alleyway that has the potential for being lively.

[atlrvr]

Can't say that I've walked through it, but having passed it many times (each several months apart), I just can't get excited. It still seems like a suburban life-style center plopped down admist an urban street grid, while totally ignoring the existing streets.

I don't buy excuses like the grade, because there are hundreds of new mega-develops around the world that properly address grade changes in a way that maintains proper street presence. Secondly, the use of planters to hide the lack of effort in addressing the street is insulting, because it uses a suburban solution to clumsily mask the problem.

The brick on the center building is ok, but the EIFS/split block building is numbingly uninspiring. Standards of good architecture shouldn't be decided by the amount of bright signage. At the end of the day, they would have been better off going with the uber-glass that was presented in the models/renderings that were meant to illustrate the tower.

I can appreciate that everyone is excited by the amenities that this project adds to downtown, but in my opinion, it's really not worth the wasted opportunity for something better on a "clean slate" site. Lastly, as BofA is pumping millions into correcting poor urban design, and creating retail sites within existing buildings that also have grade issues and existing infrastructure to deal with, its really disappointing that this is what a site with few limitations has turned out to be.

[monsoon]

^Watch out. I got thrown to the wolves for saying the same thing more than a year ago.

[HopHead]

I don't really have much to contribute in terms of how this project has disappointed in terms of design and materials--I'm an IT guy for a living. But, I had a feeling when we were given that awful static AT&T billboard instead a dynamic one that was "promised", that this project wouldn't live up to expectations. I think it will succeed b/c it provides some amenities that uptown lacks currently (I know I'll be doing some bowling), but I agree that it may not be awe inspiring to many from the exterior...

[uptownliving]

I don't buy excuses like the grade, because there are hundreds of new mega-develops around the world that properly address grade changes in a way that maintains proper street presence. Secondly, the use of planters to hide the lack of effort in addressing the street is insulting, because it uses a suburban solution to clumsily mask the problem.

All very valid and good points that I pretty much agree with. But to show us what EpicCentre could have been if designed properly from the begining could you provide some mega project examples that are on a similar grade change as EpiCentre that you think did a good job with street level design. Pics would be nice too.

[atlrvr]

Sure....here is one that I am familiar with.

100 Cambridge St. in Boston (to be fair, the tower existed, but the midrise wrapping it replaces clumsy plaza space) It's difficult to see in the rendering, but the street going up to the right of the block is considerably steeper than Trade.

There are plenty others in San Francisco, Seattle, and other hilly cities, I just can't find good renderings.....One Rincon in S.F. is similarly disappointing on one side as EpiCentre.

I will say, that Avenue, which faces a similar grade chance along Church does much better of "stepping up storefronts".

[AuLukey]

I have to agree, Epicentre's streetfront on Trade could have been ten times better. Is this development better than what was there before? Of course, but it is easy just to imagine a better built presence on Trade. They could have story-and-a-half-tall or two story shops on the LRT end, and gradually make each retail spot shorter progressing up Trade towards College.

Here is the courtyard between the Trade St building and the center building:

And the alley between the center building and the base of aLoft:

One thing I found interesting was that the floors on the side of aLoft are labeled. There is a 13th floor, that threw me off.

[dubone]

Ha! What ^he said.

I absolutely do think, and have written before, that they could have taken away a couple spaces and put one very small retail space on that section of Trade that seems to get the most criticism. I also absolutely agree that EIFS was a very bad choice for the exterior, considering there are places where it is a wall next to pedestrians which will look like absolute sh__ (what ^he said ) in less than a year.

But really, you can just see the issues that they had to iron out, and you can see all the evolutions of the plan, and you can see how those compromises would have been necessary. If they had put retail stepping down against Trade, it would have made some space below it less usable (except maybe for a dwarf bar, but that is a limited niche market). A very small retail space in that section, that extends into the parking area would have almost certainly worked, but it would have been very limited in benefits considering the square footage.

I'm disappointed that the 4th Street side doesn't have more glass like the model showed (reminder, the model was built for the condo tower, so they did take pains to be perfectly representative of the retail section). Those massive blank EIFS walls are really ridiculous, redeemable only if they plaster them with advertisements.

There is something fundamental, though, that seems to be causing EIFS to be used ubiquitously. I notice in siteplans and rezonings all over that they list in the same area that a surface will be masonry or EIFS as though they were somehow of the same vein, but make pains to say that a wall will not be spandrel glass. You see quotes like "...shall be constructed with a minimum of 60% masonry materials and/or stucco (EIFS, brick, stone, pre-cast concrete, or other masonry materials). Um, one of these things is not like the other. But you see stuff like that in the rezonings, and inevitably EIFS is used as much as possible as it appears to be very cheap and light. Given the economics of the situation, it seems that we are doomed to having most of our urban projects using EIFS unless the city bans its use. Even Novare seems to be using it between the windows of Catalyst.

[monsoon]

......

There is something fundamental, though, that seems to be causing EIFS to be used ubiquitously. ....

Yeah, it's cheap. It has become the vinyl siding of the commercial building industry. Like vinyl siding it's used to maximize profits because it is very cheap to purchase, install, and there are plenty of people who say they can put it in. Like vinyl siding, it looks like crap in a few years. Ghazi's project in Huntersville also started out as a nice looking interesting project and once it was done, it was really nothing more than a strip mall dressed up in EIFS, some engineered stone, and a lot of fake facades. Million more like them in CLT. Bleh.

[Andyc545]

Yeah, it's cheap. It has become the vinyl siding of the commercial building industry. Like vinyl siding it's used to maximize profits because it is very cheap to purchase, install, and there are plenty of people who say they can put it in. Like vinyl siding, it looks like crap in a few years. Ghazi's project in Huntersville also started out as a nice looking interesting project and once it was done, it was really nothing more than a strip mall dressed up in EIFS, some engineered stone, and a lot of fake facades. Million more like them in CLT. Bleh.

There is certainly no argument in the building materials, and I am familiar with one of Ghazi's EIFS projects up here in the University Area, so I can contend to this all. Not looking at asthetics in the structure, however, I don't see the argument that EpiCentre is a suburban design. Building materials certainly are not an indicator as to what makes a building Urban vs. Suburban. Now I do see the potential of left out spaces near the light rail on Trade as well as all of 4th, which seriously is an unwelcoming stretch of land for the average pedestrian. The sidewalks that have been set in place and since opened along Trade, however, are much more welcoming, IMO, and once construction gets cleaned up, there will be greater accessibility from the corner of Trade/College down to the CTC Station. Retail parcels, or at least accessibility other than the parking structure's, would have been much nicer if implemented along 4th also. With that under the belt, Epicentre will still succeed, mainly on location and atmosphere, amenities that are new to uptown, diversification, and what is being built on its 2 block radius- aLoft, Ritz, 210 Trade, BofA, etc... Certainly the project isn't perfect, but you have to look at cost vs. implementation of a project this magnitude with a builder that is new to projects like this. If costs were to be cut to keep the project profitable and attractive, the building materials at street level are one of the logical cut backs. Now that AT&T banner... don't even get me started about that piece of crap... For the love of God Ghazi, anything could be better than what is put up there.

[cha]

the really big blank EIFS wall was originally supposed to be covered by a massive massive clear LED screen.. really modern looking.. i'm sure it was scrapped because of $, i'll see if I can't find one of my old renderings when I make it back to my house in charlotte

[atlrvr]

Hmmm...there was a post on here accusing me of being a facade Nazi or something to that affect, but it has since disappeard. I'd still like to reply, that I am well aware that costs have exceeded rents, but that is still somewhat of a lazy answer. Without having a pro forma in front of me, I can't say what is or isn't possible, BUT that's no excuse for taking the path of least resistence. As an equity lender, we always look at long term value, on top of simply making the numbers work. We want to see a development plan that will remain competitive over a 15 year life cycle. Obviously the developers found equity that wasn't as particular, but for the public's sake, that's a shame.

[Charlotteman]

And the alley between the center building and the base of aLoft:

This pic is amazingly reminiscent of Seattle's Post Alley area. If this ends up as cool as Post Alley, Charlotte residents are in for a treat.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Charlotteman

[Spartan]

But there are still allowances for a fairly large cafe section on wide sidewalks. I think Spartan is referring to coraling them in the same spacial area, but making them feel more like they are in a place rather than just exposed to the massive corridor.

Exactly. Look at Dean & Deluca, and that restaurant just south of there. Its roped off and the tables are pushed together. Its a much better arrangement. Charlotte needs a lot more of these.

Can't say that I've walked through it, but having passed it many times (each several months apart), I just can't get excited. It still seems like a suburban life-style center plopped down admist an urban street grid, while totally ignoring the existing streets.

I don't buy excuses like the grade, because there are hundreds of new mega-develops around the world that properly address grade changes in a way that maintains proper street presence. Secondly, the use of planters to hide the lack of effort in addressing the street is insulting, because it uses a suburban solution to clumsily mask the problem.

ave grade issues and existing infrastructure to deal with, its really disappointing that this is what a site with few limitations has turned out to be.

I'd say its more of a hybrid between a lifestyle center and what it should be. There is SOME street frontage, but not much. In general, I agree that this is not ideal. But I have to wonder how they would have crammed that much stuff into one space without doing what they did. Also, I walked up to Whiskey River, and the whole thing felt sort of "mall-ish" but with a slighly more urban feel to it since you get some interesting views of the skyscrapers in the vicinity. Like I always say, I'll withold my final opinion until its done, but in general I think this will be a unique asset for Charlotte even if its not the ideal urban form we'd like to see.

[Charlotte_native]

Also, I walked up to Whiskey River, and the whole thing felt sort of "mall-ish" but with a slighly more urban feel to it since you get some interesting views of the skyscrapers in the vicinity. Like I always say, I'll withold my final opinion until its done, but in general I think this will be a unique asset for Charlotte even if its not the ideal urban form we'd like to see.

It does feel a bit 'mall-ish' but I can't say I really mind that. Would we all have something different in a perfect world? Maybe, but I'll take this welcome addition over nothing any day. I'm also excited about the roof-top concert deck. Lets see...not perfect and don't like some of the materials, BUT...movie theater, bowling alley, roof-top concert venue, shopping, retail, cafes, outdoor seating...

[monsoon]

All very valid and good points that I pretty much agree with. But to show us what EpicCentre could have been if designed properly from the begining could you provide some mega project examples that are on a similar grade change as EpiCentre that you think did a good job with street level design. Pics would be nice too.

I always believe it is good to explore the past to determine the future especially since it's often forgotten in Charlotte. Charlotte is in it's 3rd century and we are talking about the oldest part of the city so certainly generations in the past have faced the same problem. Photos of E. Trade are hard to come by but this one from 1940 looking west up trade, where the grade exists shows what the street once looked like. Where the Belks is located is now the pretty much dead (in comparison) BofA corporate HQ, and Founders Hall. On the left side is where the glass boxes of the once known NCNB and Radisson (BofA and Omni) are located today. As you can see the grade on this street did not stop them from building a very nice urban place that existed for most of the first half of the 20th century. Though you can't see it, I am assuming this kind of development would have continued on to where that awful epicenter is being constructed today. Imagine if most of this had been preserved, the streets with the 1984 upgrades and rennovated. They could have built some of the skycrapers while at the same time preserving the streetscape. If this had happened, this would be one of the most interesting places in the south now. Instead we get continue to get monolithic single use structures, huge parking decks, and water features.

[voyager12]

It's not integrated to the best degree but there is nothing for Epicentre to link to really. That horse left the barn ages ago as Monsoon's picture demonstrates. Uptown is completely dominated by monolithic, faceless, silos that are unto themselves. Can't change that unfortunately. Epicentre is visionary by comparison.