210 Trade | EpiCentre

[Kelemipololi]

You know I'm sure everyone here is wondering "why isn't there a site for all the retail on Epicentre???" If there is one I'm not looking good enough... Is there one that someone has seen?

[Andyc545]

You know I'm sure everyone here is wondering "why isn't there a site for all the retail on Epicentre???" If there is one I'm not looking good enough... Is there one that someone has seen?

http://epicentre-charlotte.com/

http://www.pavilionatepicentre.com/index.php

http://www.epicentreat5.com/

[Kelemipololi]

Thanks Andyc545... Is that french on that first link. The links don't look like they been updated. Hmm Hard to say. Has anyone really thought about how many people that bought a condo at 210 Trade and now they can't get it. I wonder what has gone on about that issue?

[New Name]

Thanks Andyc545... Is that french on that first link. The links don't look like they been updated. Hmm Hard to say. Has anyone really thought about how many people that bought a condo at 210 Trade and now they can't get it. I wonder what has gone on about that issue?

Hey Kelemipololi, welcome to UP. Spend some time looking back over the posts and topics prior. A lot of your questions are in the many pages there. Have fun, learn a lot, share some thoughts - just do some research first, okay? Cool.

[dxartist]

is it just me, or are there people working on the site? I viewed a few dates on the webcam and it appears that another level has been added to the condo tower (or being added).

[tiblerbrit]

Sorry wrong way round. Temporary levels are being removed.

[dxartist]

Sorry wrong way round. Temporary levels are being removed.

Alrighty. Thought my eyes were going bad for a sec

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's my take:

F&C's arguement is Ghazi delivered the base almost a year late, which put them in a worse market and tougher lending environment (much lower LTVs on commercial projects). Additionally, he delivered fewer parking spaces to F&C than promised (decreasing the value of their project) and built a second tower without paying an "adjuster" of $2.1M that their contract supposedly promises.

F&C has a lender willing to make a loan but they have some terms that are contingent on Ghazi's cooperation, likely from a financial perspective. Perhaps they are asking Ghazi to be a personal guarantor on the loan, or to pledge part of EpiCentre as collatoral to the bank. Obviously Ghazi doesn't feel obligated to do that.

Don't see much of a way out, unless F&C can raise more equity from private sources, find a bank dumb enough to take on an upsized loan, or Ghazi has a change of heart and is willing to become some sort of financial partner to F&C.

This seems like an accurate summary from what is known through the public discourse of the project. Both parties almost certainly shared a role in the outcome. I wonder if there is any chance for a settlement that allows F&C to cut their losses and pull out, and allows Ghazi to perhaps engage another developer to build comething new. With the Uptown office vacancy rate at close to zero, one would think office could work here, although maybe the floor plates are too small. Hotel? Anyway, it seems like such a waste to have a signature project in a prime location stalled indefinitely, when clearly other nearby projects are moving forward.

[southslider]

I still don't understand why office needs huge floor plates. Most office buildings in Charlotte, especially the newer ones, don't begin to occupy their full block. Is this location above Epicentre really that different? And if larger floor plates would truly be needed, what about the air rights over LYNX, and maybe even the CTC in combination with Epicentre? I just don't see why America's best office market couldn't support a spec office building at its transportation nexus.

[atlrvr]

It's not that the physical site is contrained, but that the existing infranstructure already built can't accomodate a larger building than what was planned for 210 Trade. 210 was less than 10k sq. ft. per floor I believe, which is significantly smaller than any new Class A building. Most are in the 22k-25k range.

[monsoon]

^Indeed. And I suspect that a 50 story office tower will need more and larger elevators than a residential building. 210 Trade was not designed for this and retrofitting them in the existing space would subtract even more from the floor plates and would involve some fairly expensive engineering changes. This is why floor plates on tall office buildings are larger. The elevator problem is a very tricky problem to solve in taller office buildings.

[Charlotte_native]

It's not that the physical site is contrained, but that the existing infranstructure already built can't accomodate a larger building than what was planned for 210 Trade. 210 was less than 10k sq. ft. per floor I believe, which is significantly smaller than any new Class A building. Most are in the 22k-25k range.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone jumped in like happened at Enclave and The Vue for either apartments or condos. For the right developer at the right price, this isn't a bad deal. Other than being constrained by the existing foundation/floorplate the hard part of this is done -- it is basically ready for a crane and some verticle movement. It is further along than both of those projects were when others took over.

[Andyc545]

^Indeed. And I suspect that a 50 story office tower will need more and larger elevators than a residential building. 210 Trade was not designed for this and retrofitting them in the existing space would subtract even more from the floor plates and would involve some fairly expensive engineering changes. This is why floor plates on tall office buildings are larger. The elevator problem is a very tricky problem to solve in taller office buildings.

Wouldn't it be possible to not go 50 stories on an office but instead retain the height with larger floors but less floors? Don't know what this equates to but say 50 stories at 9 ft each goes to 30 stories office at about 16 ft/floor. The height would retain, the number of elevators shouldn't be as much as a 50 story tower, and the footprint that is already there could stay since it is mainly EpiCentre. I know it would take a basic redesign although they could retain the look of the condo design. Then again this would not solve the problem that is here in the first place and would still require this being sold off.

[monsoon]

^When I was a junior engineer, one of the Senior guys I worked for said that "any engineering problem can be solved by money". Very wise words. So yes it's possible, but does it make economic sense? That is the real question to be asked.

[atlrvr]

I think if it was to move forward, an apartment building would make most sense. In fact, I said that 3-4 years ago when this was first proposed.

Like Monsoon said, anything is possible with money, but realistically, only a residential building is reasonable.

The big question is, if not F&C, then how does ownership change hands? If Ghazi doesn't win this lawsuit, and be returned all ownership of the existing 210 and all associated development rights, then selling this thing will be quite difficult. Combine that with any potential buyer is going to want to buy it at a discount to replacement value, and I suspect that this sits for a while. If F&C wins, I suspect this sits even longer.

[Kelemipololi]

Well There taking down the Crane for Aloft now I was Uptown earlier today. I over heard someone say there taking down the crane at 210 Trade as well.

[HopHead]

I was wondering when they would take the Aloft crane down. They look to be getting close to finishing the exterior work.

If they take the 210 trade crane down, I hope they do something to clean up the mess that's left there now. Not appealing at all.

[HockeyFan21]

I am a condo owner who bought there when I was in college a couple years ago thinking it will be the best investment to hit the condo market in Charlotte. Now I doubt it, I dont have any idea on what to think and whats going to happen. Should I try and get out to get in sometihing else? or is this condo going to be eventually built?? Who do I want to win this lawsuit?

[Spartan]

Welcome to the forum. Please be aware that UrbanPlanet is not here to provide real estate advice.

[MZT]

Considering that this is a 92 page thread now, and that EpiCenter is actually opening, perhaps it's time for an EpiCenter-only thread, and let the F&C drama fold into a separate thread.

[johnpro318]

Considering that this is a 92 page thread now, and that EpiCenter is actually opening, perhaps it's time for an EpiCenter-only thread, and let the F&C drama fold into a separate thread.

Agreed. One day I sat and read through all of this. (I have no life)

[asulaura]

Just overheard someone saying they recieved a letter from Helen Adams stating that 210 Trade was cancelled and contract holders would be recieving their earnest money back. Does Helen Adams have to pay it back or the developer?

[atlrvr]

Helen Adams wasn't the real estate agent representing 210....Allen Tate's BSI division handled pre-sales. Per The Park thread, it seems that developers can sometimes use deposits as working capital. True earnest money I think is held by the real estate sales group in escrow until a sales contract has been executed....perhaps they used Helen Adams as their buyers agent, and never executed a contract?

To HockeyFan21....as far as who to cheer for, for this to get built as is....I think you cheer for an out of court settlement, but I think at this point, I would start looking at the market to see what else you might be of interest.

[New Name]

DENSITY BABY! SWEET DENSITY!

blackfin (er is it backfin?) whatever...

and my wife and dog...

[dubone]

Considering that this is a 92 page thread now, and that EpiCenter is actually opening, perhaps it's time for an EpiCenter-only thread, and let the F&C drama fold into a separate thread.

There has been a thread on the Epicentre retail for a long time, but most people have ended up just posting all that stuff here.

I'd suggest that for the actual retail going in and operating, that people use that thread in the Charlotte Coffee House

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/EpiCentr...ail-t10884.html

If people use this thread to discuss the larger development issues and let the retail discussions go on in the other thread, it might be easier for readers. But it is understandable that there is some overlap as this is a very complex project with complex issues going on right now.