210 Trade | EpiCentre

[Guest]

For uptown to succeed even more, we need to look at it from the Rhino Times reader's perspective- someone who already has a chip on his shoulders against uptown, comes there rarely, and doesn't want to pay to park or deal with more hassles than he'd have when driving to the strip mall nearby in Ballantyne.

I'm sorry but anyone expecting free parking can just stay out, sorry. If anyone expect free parking near a Major Regional Arena for a Professional Basketball Team is ignorant. I have never been to a downtown area that has free parking, and if you want free parking on a saturday, you can find that 3 blocks away at 7th street station, it is free there b4 5 pm. And not finding the epicentre parking sign, its not too hard, you see the Large P and the arrow?

[Spartan]

I'm a big fan of the train but I wasn't coming from south Charlotte. I appreciate the explanations, but if I were Mr. Typical Suburbanite, I still would have been turned off. Uptown seemed dead as doornail when I went- around 1pm on Saturday- and so I just didn't understand why the parking spaces along the streets were blocked off, why the Overstreet Mall bridge was shut down (I thought I had read on UP that it'd already be open), why there was no Epicentre website, why there were street signs pointing to parking decks (but not to the Epicentre one), etc.

For uptown to succeed even more, we need to look at it from the Rhino Times reader's perspective- someone who already has a chip on his shoulders against uptown, comes there rarely, and doesn't want to pay to park or deal with more hassles than he'd have when driving to the strip mall nearby in Ballantyne.

I understand your confusion about the street parking closure, but thats not the norm for Uptown.

I take issue with your parking complaints. I think that anyone coming in to uptown expects to pay for parking in a garage or surface lot somewhere if they want to park close to Tryon St. If you want to walk a few blocks, there is free parking to be found. EpiCentre has its own parking garage on site, so thats about as good as it can get for a suburbanite. If we continue to provide ample, free parking in this city we wont change anyone's perspectives driving as a sole means of transportation. Free parking is one of many ways we are subsidizing sprawl. If driving and parking becomes expensive, people won't want to drive there, and if the destination is worth going to then they'll find another way to get there (like transit). This is the reality of the situation. We're not going to change someone's mind who lives in Ballantyne (for many reasons) and who likes to shop at a strip mall on 51.

[Andyc545]

Actually I am rather surprised to see someone EXPECTING free parking. Even suburbanites. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time growing up with family and we NEVER expected free parking when going into downtowns in any city. And parking is relatively cheap here; take a look at how much it is to park in downtown San Francisco or NYC... You would likely be sticker shocked. It's amazing that the city even offers free parallel parking after 5pm on weekdays. Like Spartan saying, we should be promoting the use of mass transit as the affordable approach to getting into uptown because that will help change our mentality and help keep some cars off the streets benefiting the enviornment and other issues that are top at the list right now in America. After all- you can get FREE parking at the CAT's P&R's, which we should take as a gift (they charge in Washington for their P&R's), and pay a very small price (likely less than the cost of gas to drive in) to get into the city, which is what a lot of Suburbanites are doing.

[dubone]

Parking is 'free' in many places uptown if you do your homework. I am not sure you can expect free parking to jump up and hit you in the face. Surely even Rhino Times type people took some sort of economics class in school. Supply is scarce and demand is high, therefore, the market price is higher than zero. The only cases where you can find free parking are from public land (street parking) which ignores the market prices for the common good, but sometimes is forbidden to maintain roadway capacity. The other case is when you can get validated, as the costs of parking are then absorbed into operating costs of the business, where they are willing.

While mallguy is primarily trying to serve a devil's advocate position on here, I think my [and others'] point is that the suburban model of auto dependency is not sustainable and certainly could never be fully implemented in an urban context. Obviously, our uptown is still quite accommodating to auto-centric visitors, as evidenced by the massive amount of roadway capacity, the very high number of parking decks, the large number of blocks still covered by surface parking, and even the large number of park and ride spaces.

[ES Charlotte]

Parking is 'free' in many places uptown if you do your homework. I am not sure you can expect free parking to jump up and hit you in the face. Surely even Rhino Times type people took some sort of economics class in school. Supply is scarce and demand is high, therefore, the market price is higher than zero. The only cases where you can find free parking are from public land (street parking) which ignores the market prices for the common good, but sometimes is forbidden to maintain roadway capacity. The other case is when you can get validated, as the costs of parking are then absorbed into operating costs of the business, where they are willing.

While mallguy is primarily trying to serve a devil's advocate position on here, I think my [and others'] point is that the suburban model of auto dependency is not sustainable and certainly could never be fully implemented in an urban context. Obviously, our uptown is still quite accommodating to auto-centric visitors, as evidenced by the massive amount of roadway capacity, the very high number of parking decks, the large number of blocks still covered by surface parking, and even the large number of park and ride spaces.

i completely understand paying for parking (as i did just last week in nyc. 90$ for two days ) and im sure this should be in some other topic but i dont know where to ask. several weeks ago some of you were mentioning some of the decks you can get free parking in depending on the time you leave. any suggestions or reminders of where these might be??? i will pay if i have to, but if its there and its free. why not use it?

[monsoon]

Actually I am rather surprised to see someone EXPECTING free parking. Even suburbanites. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time growing up with family and we NEVER expected free parking when going into downtowns in any city. And parking is relatively cheap here; take a look at how much it is to park in downtown San Francisco or NYC... You would likely be sticker shocked. It's amazing that the city even offers free parallel parking after 5pm on weekdays. Like Spartan saying, we should be promoting the use of mass transit as the affordable approach to getting into uptown because that will help change our mentality and help keep some cars off the streets benefiting the enviornment and other issues that are top at the list right now in America. After all- you can get FREE parking at the CAT's P&R's, which we should take as a gift (they charge in Washington for their P&R's), and pay a very small price (likely less than the cost of gas to drive in) to get into the city, which is what a lot of Suburbanites are doing.

I am not sure that driving to a park and ride lot to park your car over driving to a pay lot in downtown is going to do much for the environment. The fact that most of the traffic on the light rail line is coming from this kind of customer isn't reducing global warming or even local air pollution. Also the premise that no one should expect free parking in downtown Charlotte because NYC doesn't have it is a bit of a stretch also. Unlike NYC, downtown is still filled with tons of vacant lots. The reason there isn't any place to park for free is because those people expect to be paid if you drive your car onto their lots.

[MZT]

Walking several blocks in Sacramento, Los Angeles or San Diego never seemed unusual to me in order to find cheap parallel parking on the streets. If your car is old, you are more inclined to give it a chance. It's not such an unusual thing. Definately watch the posted "# of hours" signs, though.

[Charlotte_native]

There is cheap, $5.00 or so, parking if you go a couple to a few blocks from The Square. There is also free on-street parking after 6 on most nights and all weekend (exceptions as noted above during large events when they need to keep traffic lanes open).

[Andyc545]

I am not sure that driving to a park and ride lot to park your car over driving to a pay lot in downtown is going to do much for the environment. The fact that most of the traffic on the light rail line is coming from this kind of customer isn't reducing global warming or even local air pollution. Also the premise that no one should expect free parking in downtown Charlotte because NYC doesn't have it is a bit of a stretch also. Unlike NYC, downtown is still filled with tons of vacant lots. The reason there isn't any place to park for free is because those people expect to be paid if you drive your car onto their lots.

I really was not trying to get in a debate over which cities have cheaper parking or free parking and whether the P&R's reduce global warming compared to driving into uptown to park. We've had many talks that didn't get anywhere regarding the light rail P&R's in its designated topic. I was trying to prove a generalization to the original questions/comments imposed by Mallguy about parking in our uptown and expecting free parking or where convenient parking is... Geeeeeezzz!

[Andyc545]

I am not sure that driving to a park and ride lot to park your car over driving to a pay lot in downtown is going to do much for the environment. The fact that most of the traffic on the light rail line is coming from this kind of customer isn't reducing global warming or even local air pollution.

...And I'd still have to disagree with that in general. Here's why... Let's say someone is driving into town from Rock Hill. They can either drive lets say 35 miles into uptown and have their car turned on in both city streets and highway for approximately 30 minutes. If they opted to choose light rail, their car could be turned on say lets 15 minutes to get to the 485 station (half the time the car is on) and lets say 15 miles (half the distance). Using a car for half the time and distance is contributing significantly less to global warming and the environment than if they were to drive into uptown and drive in circles looking for parking. Also let's not forget the wonderful bus system we have that transfers to the light rail and it effectively allows people to not need to even turn on their car if they are at least living in one of the urban ring neighborhoods and even some of Meck's suburbs.

[monsoon]

....Geeeeeezzz!

What I thought when you were equating NYC to downtown Charlotte to justify your lecture to everyone about expectations.

[Charlotteman]

Parking fees in center city Seattle are ludicrous......in one lot near the Public Market, a large sign advertises ONLY $13 PER 30 MIN. Like that's some kind of great deal......

And where I live across the water in Bremerton, Washington, pop 38,000, downtown parking is even $8 for a ten hour period. People have become accustomed to these outlandish parking fees, and now even the suburbs have jumped on the bandwagon and are charging for parking.

Folks coming into Uptown Charlotte for any reason should expect to face a parking fee. That's just the way it is these days in American downtowns.....even in relatively small towns like where I live. Charlotteans have to pay to park Uptown, but they should be happy they don't face the stratospheric parking fees found in NYC and Seattle.

[krazeeboi]

aLoft in the foreground (taken Labor Day)

[monsoon]

One more reminder, and this has been posted in this topic several times by several of the Charlotte moderators, Epicenter retail discussions are to go into the coffee house thread on the mall portion of this project. If your post disappeared, go look there.

[AuLukey]

Ok, so just a random thought today that came to me, but let's say TTT never gets built in any form, period. What stands a good chance of being built there instead?

The foundation is laid for a 50+ story tower but I can't see that happening in the market in any form anytime in the near future. I don't see the office market taking off anytime soon as well, nor would the floorplate be ideal for such a development. So my random idea was that this would be the perfect opportunity for another hotel to move into that block. Construction costs obviously would be significantly less no matter what goes in so this would seem to be an easy sale for Ghazi assuming the F&C contract drops out after x-time.

Rental or perhaps a mixed-use hotel and apartment tower in the 30 story range would be ideal IMO.

[Spartan]

Probably some other office tower when the market recovers and the space is needed. Its a great spot for a tower. Prime access to transit and the city center.

[CLTMichael]

What is the latest on 210 Trade? Have they stopped construction? Are they still suing each other?

[Andyc545]

What is the latest on 210 Trade? Have they stopped construction? Are they still suing each other?

I don't have a direct answer (although I don't believe much has been resolved yet), but I'd imagine that even if this all clears up that this tower will not be restarted in the current economy. I think it will be a few years before it is looked at again, although once the economy turns around, I'd imagine this site will be one of the first to be replanned due to its infrastructure and location already being established.

[Spartan]

Why is Blackfinn's entrance not facing College St? They have this nice looking set of steps on College. Maybe they will put some outdoor seating or something to liven up the area.

[dubone]

What is the latest on 210 Trade? Have they stopped construction? Are they still suing each other?

I'm curious about this too. Have they already given back the deposits and ripped up the sales contracts? It seems that if they still have many or all of their buyers that at some point this ought to be able to come together again. The deed issue was ruled in favor of this project, right? Also, if the issue was escalating construction costs exceeding the price paid by the buyers, it seems like the recent slow down should pretty much resolve that. It seems that there are some suppliers and contractors out there desperate for business and would bid closer to what Flaherty might have originally calculated.

The theory at the Vue is that in 2010-2011 when they're done construction, the recession and credit crisis will be nearing completion.

In general, my thinking is that if we are going to have to see a number of the planned projects fail and not happen, I would rather 210 Trade be on that list than some others. However, at some point we need to realize the recession is right now, and not likely two years from now when projects like this will be finishing. But regardless of the short term economic conditions, there is still global warming, energy scarcity, and sprawl so we need to build as much housing density close to jobs so that more people can build a pedestrian-based lifestyle.

[monsoon]

.....The theory at the Vue is that in 2010-2011 when they're done construction, the recession and credit crisis will be nearing completion.

There are other theories out there that claim we have been in an unrealistic and unsustainable real estate bubble that made places like 210 Trade possible in the bubble's last days. In other words we are not likely to ever see type of situation exist again where something like this project could be financed and built. It was after all that kind of thing exactly which caused the rather quick meltdown. It's probably difficult for bankers to understand but you can't have an economy last forever by running on credit backed up by endlessly appreciating real estate. The credit system collapsed when the real estate market did and the insanity now is this belief it can be fixed by using borrowed public money to make more credit commercial available.

My guess is the people who do have deposits on these places are most likely going to have to chalk up themselves up as causalities of this mess. They may have some legal recourse depending upon how it eventually gets settled, but one should also consider that it is terribly difficult to squeeze water out of a rock. At some point the city and locals are going to have to accept the fact that Charlotte's emerald dream is over and they are going to have to address what to do with 210 Trade. I still vote for putting a roller coaster on it.

[SentioVenia]

^^^ "causalities" or "casualties"? One could make the argument for either or both term!

(I second the roller coaster idea...)

[atlrvr]

It's probably difficult for bankers to understand but you can't have an economy last forever by running on credit backed up by endlessly appreciating real estate. The credit system collapsed when the real estate market did and the insanity now is this belief it can be fixed by using borrowed public money to make more credit commercial available.

Except for bankers are exactly who drives the economy. Without regulation, they will continue to repeat the cycle, so I suggest we will again see this kind of wild development activity unless the gov't becomes heavy handed. Memories are short, and greed is constant.

As far as the credit crises, reading the Tea Leaves, there should be some sense of normailty by February or so, assuming we don't have a stock market crash before then.

[dxartist]

At some point the city and locals are going to have to accept the fact that Charlotte's emerald dream is over and they are going to have to address what to do with 210 Trade. I still vote for putting a roller coaster on it.

I vote for putting a structure like the Space Needle to break up the blocks of buildings.

[AuLukey]

I too agree that if this never ends up becoming a tower, for reasons metro stated, then some kind of attraction would serve Charlotte well. A roller coaster would be amazing, but I'm not sure it would be practical due to the shocks and vibrations it would cause to the building, and the office space below. If they could find a way around that, it would be an amazing addition. A needle would be cool, but I can't see it being possible given the current structure's support system is not build for such a structure. How about an aquarium?

Edited October 30, 2008 by aussie luke