210 Trade | EpiCentre

[nonillogical]

^ agreed...truthfully on the surface the epicentre is not "my scene" either, nor is uptown overall, but i chose to move here on a whim and i've had no problem making the best of it, and epicentre is certainly helping that. i don't go to places like suite or whiskey river but have loved having more restaurant options and theater so close, and i have found pj's and wxyz to be great laid-back places to hang out. they're still pushing the trendy upscale thing rather hard, but i don't feel unwelcome there in a t-shirt and crappy shoes at least.

i would have preferred several smaller, thoughtful mid-rise mixed-use developments throughout uptown that would attract more independent businesses, but hey, this approach probably does more to specifically draw people in from the suburbs for an afternoon or night out.

and the finishes...eh i don't know how much better anyone expected it to be, unless its going to reek even more of artificial luxury (something that would be derided around here). i never expected anything but a mall vibe from it and by that token i've been pleasantly surprised.

[Charlotte_native]

I forgot to mention how much fun Howl At The Moon is. Not the kind of place we'd go all the time, but it is a really fun alternative to the other clubs. We had a group of about 12 or 14 that met there one night right after it opened -- couple people from this forum, my sister-in-law and her family, a client who is in his 60's, and a couple neighbors from our building much younger than us. That is pretty much typical of the mixed demographic there and all of us had a blast -- that we paid dearly for the next day. I know they have these places in a lot of cities (dualing piano bars) but I've never been to one. I'll delightfully admit that it is completely cheezy, from the drink menus to the bartenders and waitstaff occationally doing dance numbers -- but occationally letting go and diving into the cheeziness can be a lot of fun!

[Spartan]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Epicenter is without flaws. I have many issues with its design, the most obnoxious being that it has ass ends on 4th St and Trade St. Why didn't they continue the European street design on the streets we already have (which suck for the most part)?

Anyway, I am an optimist, and I look at the good things that Epicenter has done/is doing for center city. The things they are doing internally are making it a better place, and the hords of people I saw there the other weekend seem to support that notion. One thing that we cannot measure is how this place will impact center city over time. I mean that in terms of economy/retail development AND aesthetically. This building is still shiny and new. It will be interesting to see how it EFIS ages.

Uptown does not define the entire city

If that statement is true, then thats why Charlotte will never become a true "world class" city. The best cities are defined by their downtowns.

[nyxmike]

Anyway, I am an optimist, and I look at the good things that Epicenter has done/is doing for center city. The things they are doing internally are making it a better place, and the hords of people I saw there the other weekend seem to support that notion. One thing that we cannot measure is how this place will impact center city over time. I mean that in terms of economy/retail development AND aesthetically. This building is still shiny and new. It will be interesting to see how it EFIS ages.

If the EFIS doesn't age very well, which is a possibility, they could always re-do the exterior and use better materials. I have seen this done before with strip malls and the UNCC library is another example (although they ended up re-cladding it with cheap materials anyways). It's just like when you need siding on your house replaced I suppose so there is always hope that later on better materials will be utilized.

[rockhilljames]

I tend to disagree with that.

I think all great cities have vibrant downtowns, but the truly great cities are the ones who have diverse areas that make up a greater whole. Imagine San Francisco with no Castro District or Russian Hill. Imagine New York without Tribeca, the Village, or the 5 boroughs. Imagine Miami with no South Beach or Little Havana.

Certainly you can engage in a discussion about whether or not Charlotte is a great city or not, but in my opinion it will be greater when NoDa, Plaza/Midwood, and Elizabeth have enough density and culture to stand on their own as destinations.

[monsoon]

In most cities the "downtown" /= "central business district". The latter is usually the most dead part of the more famous places.

[Charlotte_native]

In most cities the "downtown" /= "central business district". The latter is usually the most dead part of the more famous places.

This is pretty much the case in every real big city I've visited.

[atlrvr]

When compared to the Wall St area of Manhattan, or Le Defense in Paris, or Canary Wharf in London, Charlotte's downtown (well, Church, College, Tryon and Trade streets) is actually much more active for a greater portion of the day.

Charlotte Native is right though, those areas aren't primary tourist destinations (or resident destinations) within those respective cities, and the destinctive neighborhoods, and entertainment districts (which aren't located in the CBD's) are the far more interesting destinations. That said, Uptown/Downtown is in the geographic center of Charlotte, which is a bit unique for a CBD in most "world class" cities.

I have no problem with the amount of investment in Uptown, but I wish that city leaders would understand the importance of fostering unique and URBAN neighborhoods elsewhere, and that posters on here wouldn't lean so hard on Uptown to be something for everyone.

All that said, we need serious expansion of our transit system before these individual neighborhoods become a collective part of urban Charlotte.

To tie this back to 210 Trade. It is what it is, a collection of bars, restaurants, and entertainment venues, with a smattering of office and other retail, and a hotel, all taking up only 1 block in this ~275 sq. mi. city. It certainly doesn't define the city, and to make assumptions that the unemployed will flee the city because they don't like what is offered on one block is a bit over the top in my opinion. It's cheesy, not my scene, and downright cheap looking in my opinion, but I have a simple solution, I don't go there. There are ~274.95 additional sq. miles of city, some of which contain things I enjoy.

[Spartan]

I tend to disagree with that.

I think all great cities have vibrant downtowns, but the truly great cities are the ones who have diverse areas that make up a greater whole. Imagine San Francisco with no Castro District or Russian Hill. Imagine New York without Tribeca, the Village, or the 5 boroughs. Imagine Miami with no South Beach or Little Havana.

Certainly you can engage in a discussion about whether or not Charlotte is a great city or not, but in my opinion it will be greater when NoDa, Plaza/Midwood, and Elizabeth have enough density and culture to stand on their own as destinations.

I think larger cities have larger core areas. San Francisco is a large metro area that is defined by the city itself. New York is defined by Manhattan, not just Tribecca or Greenwich Village. Its a combination of the whole.

[dubone]

The discussions of Revolution and the other restaurants opening up in Epicentre were moved to the proper topic for that discussion in the Coffee House:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/EpiCentr...ail-t10884.html

[queensguy06]

Has anyone stayed at Aloft yet? My birthday is this week, and I wanted a romantic evening Uptown (I know, I am a hopeless romantic ) so we got a room at Aloft. It was one of the only hotels Uptown not completely booked - other than the Blake - and Aloft only had a few rooms left. It looks like your typical boutique hotel, just wondering if anyone had comments good or bad about the place.

[SmellyCat]

Has anyone stayed at Aloft yet? My birthday is this week, and I wanted a romantic evening Uptown (I know, I am a hopeless romantic ) so we got a room at Aloft. It was one of the only hotels Uptown not completely booked - other than the Blake - and Aloft only had a few rooms left. It looks like your typical boutique hotel, just wondering if anyone had comments good or bad about the place.

A work colleague of mine stayed there last week for a night and said she liked it. The wxyz loungue on the 5th floor of the hotel is pretty nice and modern, everything you'd expect from a W concept hotel. I like it because it's a little bit off the beaten path being on the 5th floor, so it's not gonna be as riff-raffy as say a bar on the street level like Black Finn.

[superceleb]

Has anyone stayed at Aloft yet? My birthday is this week, and I wanted a romantic evening Uptown (I know, I am a hopeless romantic ) so we got a room at Aloft. It was one of the only hotels Uptown not completely booked - other than the Blake - and Aloft only had a few rooms left. It looks like your typical boutique hotel, just wondering if anyone had comments good or bad about the place.

I actually just stayed there this past Saturday. The rooms were very cool and modern (and it was inexpensive!), however it was not without it's issues. The walls must be paper thin because I could hear the people next door talking the entire night. Also, it seemed to be a pretty rowdy crowd staying the night I was there, most likely due to the holiday (everyone was wearing green). Also, the in-room Wi-Fi was not working (I was told someone would be up to fix it, but that never happened) and the indoor pool was not operational (in spite of being told it would be this past weekend). Fortunately I was not too bothered by this, but I could definitely see it bothering some. Overall, I did enjoy the experience and would stay again (and hopefully some of the kinks will be worked out).

[nonillogical]

^i've heard that some rooms are quieter than others, and if you call when booking and specifically ask for a quiet room they'll know where to put you. i heard this in reference to the utility noise though, so it might be a separate issue.

[monsoon]

WCNC interviewed a sub-contractor who did work at the Epicenter. He said that he had not been paid for the work they did and hence this was hurting his business. The reason it was in the news is this sub-contractor asked the City of Charlotte to perform an audit of Ghazi considering they game him over $1/2 million for infrastructure improvements and there is $1.5 million more. The city's official response, and not surprising, is this isn't their concern.

In any case Ghazi was also interviewed by WCNC who said these guys were not getting paid because his contractor was not paying them. However the TV station contacted this contractor who said that it was Ghazi who wasn't paying. Ghazi said there might be an opportunity to "work something out". What?.... Either he owes the money or not.

I am not sure why there are such issues with payments unless this is another case of bad business planning (i.e. 210 Trade, the Park, etc) on what this place cost vs what they are collecting in rent. It would seem to me however, they are are going to have a really tough time finding contractors to work with them. On a related note, Ghazi's fancy strip mall in Huntersville isn't doing so well. Some of it still hasn't rented and he has already had some businesses pull out. The biggest was just this past week when Just Fresh closed which was renting one of the big end units.

[Spartan]

I've heard its Ghazi. I've also heard that there are a lot of infrastructure issues with that site that somehow got approved. It's going to be a mess to get it all fixed.

[monsoon]

^Indeed. Guess who will end up paying for it. I became critical of this project when Ghazi made huge changes to the design over what was originally presented to the public and proposed to the city. Remember not only did the city give him that money for the infrastructure changes, he got significant discounts on that land too. The appearance of a 50 story tower dazzled everyone to the point they were like a deer staring into headlights. Never mind that it was an unworkable plan.

People want something so bad in downtown they are willing to accept anything it seems. However it's my opinion this entire project has turned out to be a big stain over what could have been done there. Every time the city gets involved in a "partnership" with a developer, the end result is a mess. Epicenter seems to be little more than a tacky looking strip mall catering to mediocre chains and places to get drunk. It's City Fare phase II.

I blame the city for a lot of this. IMO, they should have used the money to demo the old civic center and then subdivided the land so it could have been sold off as smaller projects. The end result would have been much nicer, less monolithic looking, and not subject to issues with just one developer.

[Spartan]

I can't say whether or not the plan was workable since I wasn't involved in the negotiations nor have I seen the plan myself. I do know that all developers are required to get construction bonds incase they can't install the infrastructure. If this type of thing happens, the city withholds the developer's construction bonds to pay for the work that they didn't do.

[HopHead]

I went to AA5 last night for the first time at Epicentre (I tried going about a month or so ago but it rained)... I definitely like the stage setup on the top floor. I think the way they open everything up to the other bars and restaurants is good. The city views are pretty cool too. My one complaint though is the unfinished 210 trade condo tower is unsightly. It's pretty visible from wherever you are. At this point, they would be better off just covering it with a tarp... Now I don't know what we can expect from Ghazi, but I hope he does something to address this in the not too distant future.

OT: Wow, my 1000th post!!!

Edited July 10, 2009 by dbull75

[uptownliving]

It's pretty visible from wherever you are. At this point, they would be better off just covering it with a tarp... Now I don't know what we can expect from Ghazi, but I hope he does something to address this in the not too distant future.

Ghazi doesn't own the condo tower carcass. So legally he can't do anything to that structure. It is owned by Flaherty & Collins. Until F&C does something or sells it...ti will remain as it is today.

[HopHead]

Ghazi doesn't own the condo tower carcass. So legally he can't do anything to that structure. It is owned by Flaherty & Collins. Until F&C does something or sells it...ti will remain as it is today.

That's right... I keep forgetting that component of it. I would be willing to bet then that F&C doesn't do anything with it, if at all, for quite some time then.

[Charlotte_native]

I went to AA5 last night for the first time at Epicentre (I tried going about a month or so ago but it rained)... I definitely like the stage setup on the top floor. I think the way they open everything up to the other bars and restaurants is good. The city views are pretty cool too.

I love the city views up there too -- looks very vibrant and lots of interesting focal points. Agreed as well on the way they opened all the upstairs bars and places out to the upper plaza area. It definitely is unlike any other venue we have or have had in the city. Reminds me of other entertainment hubs in big cities I've visited. We don't go much, I'm not big on these type of places or chain restaurants and bars, but its nice that it is there when the mood strikes, when we have company in from out of town, and for visitors who stay downtown -- their complaints of not a lot to do and no movies uptown are finally lessened.

We actually met some folks there the other weekend that were in from Winston and Raleigh -- they all had driven in, met up, and were staying in nearby hotels just to hang out and go out for the weekend. Reminded me of when we used to road-trip to Atlanta years back to do the same.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Charlotte_native

[swampfox43]

Not everything is a "theme" bar--I'm not a huge fan of themed places either. Flying Buscuit is a breakfast place, but don't think it's 24/7 though.

Flying Biscuit has decided not to open a location at the EpiCentre. I was told from the current store manager at the Stonecrest location.

Instead, they are opening a location at Park Rd Shopping Center in the Fall. It will be in the now-vacant Elfreida's Flower Shop, which is 2 doors down from Blackhawk Hardware.

A great addition to the shopping center I must say!

[Spartan]

That sucks. The Flying Biscuit would have been a great addition to uptown. Why not some other location besides Epicenter?

[sleightofhand]

I friend of mine who bought into 210 Trade recently found out that he isn't going to get his 35k deposit back. I didn't get all the specifics from him as he was not too happy upon hearing the news. I had been telling him he might be getting his money back once the law suit was resolved with Ghazi and F&C. Apparently he spoke with someone either with Ghazi or F&C who informed him by contract he has no recourse for the deposit. Needless to say he's steamed and for right wrong or indifferent he's holding Ghazi responsible.

I also had lunch last week with a friend who has a small GC company that did some of the upfit in a few of the spaces at the Epicenter. They too have yet to receive any payment from Ghazi. They've met with other GC's and the amount owed is staggering. As you can imagine they are very unhappy. I'm not sure what's going to happen here because they can't even get a phone call returned and have no idea when they will ever receive payment. Interesting to say the least.