210 Trade | EpiCentre

[dubone]

I was just in the movie mood with the oscars this week but lamenting the loss of Mez, so I can't wait to go visit this. I hope they did ok. 

[carolinagarnet]

Wow, that was so fast. I wonder how much they changed structurally that the renovations were done so quickly.

[ssh214]

I walked by it yesterday morning, it really doesn't look much different besides some changes in furniture; it's essentially the same exact concept. I'm going to the gym next to it tonight (yes I overpay for that gym  ), I'll try to snap a couple of pictures...

[dubone]

Well, the design of Mez was not really a problem.  In fact, it was actually pretty nice, so I am glad to hear they did not waste too much capital in gutting it for ego.  I am curious to see whether they did remove ALL of the loveseat seating (which was really nice) in exchange for ones with larger tables, or whether that is only down in the lower seats. 

Unfortunately the movies I wanted to see are not playing. 

 

http://www.studiomoviegrill.com/  (Choose SMG EpiCentre)

As an aside, it would have been fun if they had named it EpicEntrée 

 

[Missmylab4]

Anyone know if the new ownership will ever try and do something with the unfinished tower base? With the apartment/hotel activity currently downtown I find it hard to believe that it would have been hard to have something financed for the remainder. I think anything between 10-20 stories would be very feasible. It seems like they are sitting this round/boom out.

Will Father Time make this addition impossible If something isn't done within a certain time frame?

[nowensone]

Is the base still structurally sound is what I wonder.  I know its concrete but that isn't usually exposed or if it is would be treated [i assume].

[HopHead]

Anyone know if the new ownership will ever try and do something with the unfinished tower base? With the apartment/hotel activity currently downtown I find it hard to believe that it would have been hard to have something financed for the remainder. I think anything between 10-20 stories would be very feasible. It seems like they are sitting this round/boom out.

Will Father Time make this addition impossible If something isn't done within a certain time frame?

 

There was some talk in the latter part of last year about them evaluating the uses for the unfinished portion of the 210 tower. I haven't heard anything since. Though, someone else who's in the know might have something... calling, Ricky Davis

[dubone]

FYI - to anyone who has appreciated having a nice movie theater uptown, strike it off your list of accomplishments.  SMG has really made some terrible terrible changes.   

 

The new aisles SHOULD be a nice improvement, as they pretty much prevent the need to cross in front of anyone in their seat, but they selected LED lights on them that brightly shine directly at your eyes during the whole movie. That problem is intensified by the fact that THEY DON'T CLEAN the 3D glasses between uses.  Mez used the type in plastic bags that were processed and cleaned for next use, but now you just set them on a table and they rely on a minimum wager to 'clean' them, which they don't do well.  So I had grease smudges on the glasses that pretty much made the lighting glare worse.

 

It was a huge relief that they kept the old seating, as that was a major plus for the Mez theater.  However, to fit with SMG's [terrible] business model of having 'waiters' IN the theater, they added a swivel table with a call button on top of the old small surface on the armrest.  These effectively block the drink holders, which caused at least one person in my movie to drop and smash her glass (must have been alcohol, as they now serve regular drinks in plasticware).  They also cause the eating surface to be very high and uncomfortable.  I'm 6'1 and my friend is 6'3 and we both noticed the discomfort of the table height so I'm sure average people will dislike it too.  I actually found it a worse experience to eat WITH the tables than simply with the seats how they were at Mez with my plate on my lap or on the arm rest tray.  

 

Then comes the business model that SMG is pushing, which I have comparatively realized is completely horrible compared to Mez.  You have 'waiters' coming up to take your order IN the theater.   That means unlike before where you made your menu selections and orders outside in the lobby with a buzzer to pick it up, you now must look through the menu in the dark and then attempt to order the meal to fairly unprofessional and unskilled waiters, who then enter it into a smartphone app.  Of course it is nice to have the food runners bringing your food to your seat, but that could have been easily added to a process of deciding and ordering at the bar like before and giving them your seat number.   There were lots of SHHHHH's during the moving because of the process, not to mention it being more likely to have people walking around the theater.    It also took uncomfortably long for them to even come when you press the button, so it isn't likely that the process saves you time.   It is an extremely inconvenient convenience.

 

Lastly, the food is absolutely goddam terrible.   I will never plan to eat there again.  So they have put up tons of tacky infrastructure and employment relating to forcing food on you, but then the food products are basically poor tasting fast food.  The french fries had a strange smell.  The burger had no taste.  Yet, they are charging MORE than Mez charged for good quality chef-quality food.  It's bad enough to look through a menu of frozen-fried junk food, but it's hard to mess up that level of foodstuff, and these clowns sure found a way.  $13 burgers just do not taste like hockey pucks in the real world.

 

I was so put off by the experience, that I may seriously just pretend there is no movie theater downtown.   For the most part, I am the type of person who understands growing pains for new businesses.  Certainly they might shape up the employees a bit, which is a glaring need.  But while they didn't change much, the changes they made cause the dinner-and-movie experience to be much worse than before.   Their whole business model is completely terrible, in my opinion.  Terrible food at high prices selected in the dark and ordered with whispers eaten uncomfortably on a poorly retrofitted tray and dealing have low end employees hovering around the theater the whole time.  

 

I had very low expectations when I went, and it was far worse.

 

Maybe someone who hadn't been to Mez, and doesn't care about 'having nice things' will totally be fine with this, I don't know.  But for the same or higher prices, it is hard to imagine tolerating such a steep decline in quality and experience.  

[nonillogical]

I just saw Oz 3d at SMG and completely agree with everything you just said. They took the place a sizable step down. I used to feel like even though the outside area was a club/lounge/restaurant scene that sometimes forgot it was also a movie theater, once I was seated in the theater it was quite a serious and pleasant movie-going experience. Now you can't get lost in a movie, because you are constantly reminded of where you are. I'm surprised that this business model works for SMG, since it takes a small army of staff to serve even a 1/3 full theater like ours. The staff really did their best to not be obtrusive (except for one woman who had jingling bracelets), and I didn't notice them much until about 2/3 through the movie, when, like a comedy club, they all come out and tell everyone they need to close out their tab. Super distracting whispering transactions went on all around us for at least 15 minutes after that. I honestly feel bad for the staff though, it seems like a terrible way to have to work, and your customer interaction is going to be indifferent at best and hostile at worst. 

 

I won't try the food or order anything from inside the theater because I refuse to be a part of that problem, but I did look at the menu and it is basically TGIFridays. The bar still carries more or less the same selection, but when I tried to order an old fashioned they told me they no longer carry bitters. Huh? You have 4 scotches and 6 bourbons but can't stock one more bottle that is used in dozens of cocktails? Not the biggest deal of course but its one example of where they seem to have consciously removed or worsened a feature for no good reason.

 

I haven't written the place off yet, partially because all of this together only bothered me about as much as the handful of restless children in the theater, which I knew I was getting into anyway. Seeing a movie uptown is still going to often be enticing, but next time I will sit up front where there are less distractions between me and the screen.

[HopHead]

That's a bummer about SMG. You really have to question how they could screw this theater up. I had only been to Epicentre Theaters under the old ownernship a handful of times and would say that it wasn't off the charts, but it wasn't bad and I'd still come back. The food was good and the service staff didn't really interrupt you that much. I don't like the thought of waiters coming to you to take your orders at the theater at all. It almost seems to me as if they are over catering to families based on the two reviews above and in order to push the club going crowd out a little. Hopefully enough people complain and they adjust their model a little bit. Having a decent theater in uptown is a necessity. For the mean time, I'll probably continue to see my movies at Phillips Place. 

[RVA2CLT]

CBRE arranges $50 million loan for EpiCentre owner

Any speculation over this $50 Mil possibly being used toward finishing off 210 Trade?


 

[Guest]

CBRE arranges $50 million loan for EpiCentre owner

Any speculation over this $50 Mil possibly being used toward finishing off 210 Trade?

 

That's more than enough to build a substantial tower. 

[kermit]

CBRE arranges $50 million loan for EpiCentre owner

Any speculation over this $50 Mil possibly being used toward finishing off 210 Trade?

 

 

I didn't think the CBJ would refer to it as a 'bridge loan' if that was their plan (standard personal idiocy disclaimers apply)

 

does MV Epicentre II own the air rights? (I might remember Grazi buying them back in a bankruptcy auction long ago (so they would have conveyed) but I am not sure)

Edited March 22, 2013 by kermit

[ah59396]

Anyone got any idea on what size of a building can be put up with $50 million, especially considering the foundation work is already done?

[tozmervo]

I think UNCC's uptown building cost about $50 million, but don't quote me on that. (I think that would have been extremely cheap for that building, too)

[RVA2CLT]

trying to compare I recalled reading Skyhouse (23 floors) being around the $60 Mil mark.

http://m.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2013/01/novare-grubb-planning-uptown.html?page=all&r=full

So could be a project of decent stature, if it's anything at all.

[ssh214]

Don't forget, the base and foundation is there for a tall structure anyways... It's going to be $50 million for the structure itself without any cost of foundation work. Maybe they will spend about a couple of million for testing and reinforcement of the structure to make sure everything is intact due to the huge time gap from when it was first built. But it was no problem for Skye for the Park Condos...

[MilZ]

And think of the footprint on Skyhouse and Skye compared to the area under the tower portion of 210... Wishful thinking 8) I hope we hear something official in the near future.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

getting interesting.....

[HopHead]

It's interesting to me that with what now seems like imminent groundbreaking on SkyHouse Charlotte and all the other uptown activity going on, the former 210 Trade site remains quite. Surely the new owners aren't going to let that pad sit quiet.

[MilZ]

^ Yeah $50 mil is a good bit of money to borrow if you don't have a plan, so hopefully we hear something soon.

[15895]

I could live with 210 trade missing the boat. Rather see more scrapers built in a game-changing location

[atlrvr]

^ Yeah $50 mil is a good bit of money to borrow if you don't have a plan, so hopefully we hear something soon.

 

I think speculation that that money will be used for an imminent project is probably over-blown.  They bought the property for $45mm cash, and now borrowed $50mm against it.  That's > 10% risk free return, plus the property still generates enough excess cash flow to pay the mortage and still have a large portion free cash for the owners to pocket.  Playing fast and loose with some numbers, but the point is the same.  The cash provided to buy the property out of foreclosure was from a hedge fund.  They didn't take out a loan to sit on while they dream up a development scheme, they have reinvested those proceeds in stocks, bonds, more real estate, commodities, etc, plus buy a few play things (yachts, Ferraris, ski chalets in the Alps), or in a more mundane imagination, paying back investors in their fund that are demanding to pull their money out for some reason.

 

Not saying that they don't plan on "un-locking" more value by developing or selling the air-rights, but this type of firm doesn't take out a loan that size until the second they have something to do with the cash.

 

All that said, it's a weird shaped floor-plate.  It it was rectangular, I would be shocked that  hotel wasn't already going up.  The strange size makes it more likely to be apartments, but even then, there is so much competition, that it will be hard for the construction costs required to do apartments make it profitable.  I believe they were planning on about 9 units before in 210 Trade, while Skyhouse and Childress Klein have ~20 units/floor, making them far cheaper to build per unit.  You don't get the same high-floor premium in an apartment building as you would in a condo, and the two high-rises under construction both have around 400 units.  You would need to do the full 50 floors at 210 Trade to get that many units, and for the reasons mentioned above your costs still are too high (too tall, not enough units per floor).

[MilZ]

^thanks for the insight! I do hope they do whatever their planning soon... It'd be nice for them to cap it off with anything at this point but I'm definitely for as close to the original plan as possible. Hopefully they have some public info come out in the near future.

[HopHead]

I could live with 210 trade missing the boat. Rather see more scrapers built in a game-changing location

 

That's fine, just do something to hide that awful rebar. Even if it's just temporary.