210 Trade | EpiCentre

[HopHead]

I think speculation that that money will be used for an imminent project is probably over-blown.  They bought the property for $45mm cash, and now borrowed $50mm against it.  That's > 10% risk free return, plus the property still generates enough excess cash flow to pay the mortage and still have a large portion free cash for the owners to pocket.  Playing fast and loose with some numbers, but the point is the same.  The cash provided to buy the property out of foreclosure was from a hedge fund.  They didn't take out a loan to sit on while they dream up a development scheme, they have reinvested those proceeds in stocks, bonds, more real estate, commodities, etc, plus buy a few play things (yachts, Ferraris, ski chalets in the Alps), or in a more mundane imagination, paying back investors in their fund that are demanding to pull their money out for some reason.

 

Not saying that they don't plan on "un-locking" more value by developing or selling the air-rights, but this type of firm doesn't take out a loan that size until the second they have something to do with the cash.

 

All that said, it's a weird shaped floor-plate.  It it was rectangular, I would be shocked that  hotel wasn't already going up.  The strange size makes it more likely to be apartments, but even then, there is so much competition, that it will be hard for the construction costs required to do apartments make it profitable.  I believe they were planning on about 9 units before in 210 Trade, while Skyhouse and Childress Klein have ~20 units/floor, making them far cheaper to build per unit.  You don't get the same high-floor premium in an apartment building as you would in a condo, and the two high-rises under construction both have around 400 units.  You would need to do the full 50 floors at 210 Trade to get that many units, and for the reasons mentioned above your costs still are too high (too tall, not enough units per floor).

 

So it sounds like, from what you're saying, is that they are pretty much pigeon holed because of the floor plates? That's a bummer, but makes sense. And it may even be more of the reason why this site has sat idle. They don't have a plan or developer willing to take it on because chance for profit is low.

[Prodev]

They've also gotten great revenue from the existing parking built for the condos that would go away, so their motivation to take on development risk and eliminate that parking revenue is not that high. If they did develop office and less so hotel, they could still see a good portion of that revenue since the bulk of the parking demand comes at night from the epicentre. Any condo/apartment project would completely eliminate the parking for public use. 

[Urbanity]

but I want a new building now!  

[CltFlyer]

Currently staying in the Marriott Marquis in Times Square New york.   Across from my room i can cleary see the W hotel and it got me thinking.   The layout of the Times Square W Hotel only has 6 rooms on each side and im assuming 12 on each floor.   Im not sure of the dimensions for the space available where 210 trade was supposed to go, but would it be reasonable to put  W hotel or something in the space perhaps 30-35 storys or so.  It would starwood just like the aloft hotel in the epicentre as well.   I think a hotel such as a W hotel or Sofitel could be a great addition to Charlotte and would create a nice little hotel row on trade near the arena with the Ritz, Aloft, Hyatt House, Omni, and this new hotel all within a few blocks.

[atlrvr]

Currently staying in the Marriott Marquis in Times Square New york.   Across from my room i can cleary see the W hotel and it got me thinking.   The layout of the Times Square W Hotel only has 6 rooms on each side and im assuming 12 on each floor.   Im not sure of the dimensions for the space available where 210 trade was supposed to go, but would it be reasonable to put  W hotel or something in the space perhaps 30-35 storys or so.  It would starwood just like the aloft hotel in the epicentre as well.   I think a hotel such as a W hotel or Sofitel could be a great addition to Charlotte and would create a nice little hotel row on trade near the arena with the Ritz, Aloft, Hyatt House, Omni, and this new hotel all within a few blocks.

 

Small world...staying at that Marriott tomorrow night.

I think the problem is, 210 Trade just has an assymetric floorplate.  This means, all the rooms would be slightly different lay-outs.  Hotels hate this, because it makes it harder for them to bulk-order fixtures and furniture.  I'm sure they could possibly design it so that all the rooms are slightly different in size, but the bathrooms and furniture could be standardized, in which case you might see a hotel.

 

I'm not familiar with the Times Square W, but the Westin there has a very unique curviliear design, but its all in the facade illusion, and what looks like a sloping buildings is really still a rectangle.

[dubone]

I know for apartments you said it has too few units per floor, but I wonder if it is possible to convert to more but smaller units.  It seems that with all the foundation work already done, that they ought to be able to do a modest height building (10-15) stories with lower engineering requirements compared to the original 50-story plans, and with more but smaller units per floor.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lykrIRzFdjQ/TY946sPA7rI/AAAAAAAAACo/tKwzM9VsfMw/s1600/210Trade+Condos+3+bedroom+2+floors.jpg

 

Look at the excessiveness of some of these original floorplans -- 2-story 3600sf units.  These could be split easily.

[CltFlyer]

thats ridiculous, they should have made a floorplan with more a realistic layout so when something like this happened......it could be easily changed into something else.  Is that only 2 apts per floor?

 

Atlrvr if your room is to the right when you walk out of the elevator lobby, it should be the closest building to time square on the right out your window.   Its narrow but around 50 stories tall.

Edited June 9, 2013 by CltFlyer

[Urbanity]

 

Look at the excessiveness of some of these original floorplans -- 2-story 3600sf units.  These could be split easily.

 

If I had the money (and if that was actually built) I would love that apartment - but yeah I agree 100% that could be two apartments with ease and still be sold quickly based on location.

[HopHead]

thats ridiculous, they should have made a floorplan with more a realistic layout so when something like this happened......it could be easily changed into something else. Is that only 2 apts per floor?

That's was the problem with the financial crisis. Nobody was realistic with these types of developments, let alone have the foresight for what happened. As a result its likely limited to what can be done with this building based on what atlrvr said. I still think though the location as others mentioned makes this building attractive.

Edited June 9, 2013 by wend28

[MilZ]

thats ridiculous, they should have made a floorplan with more a realistic layout so when something like this happened......it could be easily changed into something else.  Is that only 2 apts per floor?
 
It's actually 8 apartments displayed on that floor plan, but they're also all 2 floor apartments.

 

 

 

 

I will say that somewhere deep in this thread, you'll see Atlrvr and others predicting this project would not get off the ground because of low pricing compared to costs.   At least the Vue priced honestly, and that is why it is now built.

[dubone]

I count 9, but they ALL have stairs.   I had no idea that was how they were designed.  The Park had a lot of 2-story condos with massive balconies, so that is how they were able to add an entire hotel in and still have the same number of units albeit all much more modestly sized.

 

It is no wonder 210 Trade sold out in a day, as I suppose they were also priced no where near the real cost of construction if the average units per floor was 4-5 with so many 2-story units. 

 

Even if it isn't ideal, I have a hard time believing that there is no way to make the economics work for an apartment or hotel building at some point down the road.

[orulz]

It's possible to build a transfer floor to convert an irregular floor plate to something regular. See 111 W Wacker (formerly Waterview) in Chicago for an example of a building that was started and partly completed and then stalled during the boom. It had an odd floor plate in its upper floors, so they built a transfer floor and converted the odd floor plates to a simple rectangle to make completing the development feasible in today's market.

[dubone]

That's fascinating.  Maybe a possible solution here too.  Frankly, they could even remove what they already built and use that type of structural engineering to transfer the loads at the base of the new tower. 

[vassago]

Movement at the EpiCentre...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2013/08/epicentre-owners-evaluating-rooftop.html

[rjp212]

Exciting! I would love to see another Hotel and maybe some office space.

[Urbanity]

From the article: "and one scenario for the site would involve the development of two separate hotels within one structure, one on top of the other, according to people familiar with the discussions."

 

I don't think I've ever heard such a thing before.  Does anyone know of a situation where this already exists?   If this scenario were to happen I would assume some decent height to the project. 

Edited August 21, 2013 by Urbanity

[Guest]

From the article: "and one scenario for the site would involve the development of two separate hotels within one structure, one on top of the other, according to people familiar with the discussions."

 

I don't think I've ever heard such a thing before.  Does anyone know of a situation where this already exists?   If this scenario were to happen I would assume some decent height to the project. 

There is a Two Brand Stacked Hotel being developed a couple blocks from my office in midtown manhattan. I will try to dig up the name/makeup. I think its something crazy like 60 floors though.

[CLTProductions]

Is it possible that they could put office space there? Hasn't everyone been saying we need office space?

[HopHead]

Interesting... Wonder what plans will take longer to come to fruition. The "transformative" Crescent project? Or a revamped 210 Trade? (end of pessimism)

[Guest]

Is it possible that they could put office space there? Hasn't everyone been saying we need office space?

Not in a high rise capacity. Too little floor area, and not enough space for additional elevators.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Guest

[CLTProductions]

Not in a high rise capacity. Too little floor area, and not enough space for additional elevators.

Ah good point. Whatever they do, they need to get rid of that exposed concrete and rebar. It is just terrible.

[nowensone]

Movement at the EpiCentre...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2013/08/epicentre-owners-evaluating-rooftop.html

 Also from the article, the only thing they will not entertain is for-sale residential, I think this one location in which it would work.  Residents have almost a complete micro-city down below in terms of services, just an elevator ride away, which simply boosts any retail success here, I really think they should not rule this out, its a win-win.

[HopHead]

The two hotel combo is kind of intriguing to me. Though, with the Aloft hotel already in Epicentre and the new one being built on the Center City Green property (in addition to some other hotels right there) it wouldn't be suprising if they didn't go this route. I think a residential/hotel combo like Skye Condo/Hyatt would work perfect here -- albeit apartments not condos. Heck, get a 30-40 story tower and put a rooftop restaurant on it

[Guest]

Didn't someone say 210 Trade's owners just got a MASSIVE loan for an unspecified reason?

Edited August 22, 2013 by Guest

[HopHead]

Didn't someone say 210 Trade's owners just got a MASSIVE loan for an unspecified reason?

 

Yep. $50M worth: CBRE arranges $50 million loan for EpiCentre owner