The Vue vs 210 Trade

[monsoon]

It seems incredible that we have not one but two 50+ story residential towers proposed for construction at essentially the same time in Charlotte. Residential towers in the 50+ story range are not that common in the scheme of things epsecially in a city of Charlotte's size. And this on top of all of the other high rise condos going up.

And curiously, The Vue has been selling condos for months but isn't building anything, but on the other hand 210 Trade is actually doing construction but hasn't started sales yet. And I don't believe either has released an actual final rendering that states the number of floors, final height, or other details that would suggest what we might actually end up with.

Both have prices like they are the only game in town.

Since we have not really talked about these two towers competing against each other for customers, and I think it is fairly limited customer set at these prices, I thought I would start a thread to discuss the subject.

What do you guys think about the competition between these two towers?

[DigitalSky]

I have hope and faith (lol) that both 50+ story towers will in fact be built.

[Charlotteman]

I feel confident both towers will be built and both will be 50+.

However, something I have been thinking about---it has been mentioned that an unofficial goal is to have at least 15,000 folks living Uptown. With these EXPENSIVE, PRICEY condos going up, with prices mostly in excess of $300,000 who will comprise that 15,000?

Look at the Park's prices....the Vue's prices....these are completely out of reach for most people. The 15,000 residents goal might be met sooner than imagined, but will there be diversity Uptown?

Don't get me wrong--I have nothing against wealthy people. I wish I was wealthy:) But having essentially one socio-economic group living Uptown will lead to a real social blandness.

Is there a way for the city to guarantee more residential towers/residences that middle-classed people can afford be built Uptown? Seattle has done that with extensive subsidies, to guarantee that people of all socio-economic classes can actually live in Seattle.

[ElricSeven]

It seems incredible that we have not one but two 50+ story residential towers proposed for construction at essentially the same time in Charlotte. Residential towers in the 50+ story range are not that common in the scheme of things epsecially in a city of Charlotte's size. And this on top of all of the other high rise condos going up.

And curiously, The Vue has been selling condos for months but isn't building anything, but on the other hand 210 Trade is actually doing construction but hasn't started sales yet. And I don't believe either has released an actual final rendering that states the number of floors, final height, or other details that would suggest what we might actually end up with.

Both have prices like they are the only game in town.

Since we have not really talked about these two towers competing against each other for customers, and I think it is fairly limited customer set at these prices, I thought I would start a thread to discuss the subject.

What do you guys think about the competition between these two towers?

Both might get built, but 210 Trade IMHO will be much more successful.

I think that 210 Trade is more certain as it will be very appealing to workers in the BOA building complex, including scores of young, high-earning bank and law firm employees. The sky bridge connection, very short walk and the spectacle of the tower rising from the adjacent block will make 210 Trade the much more popular. Add on potential retail and the best location in the city and I think they've got a real winner.

I'm lukewarm on the Vue due to its reluctance to disclose any of their sales figures and almost desperately intensifying media blitz. I think they've got to be concerned given their previous fast-selling similar project in Florida. All that being said, I'd love to see both of them built. I think it makes non-entertainment retail Uptown much more likely.

[Dale]

Both might get built, but 210 Trade IMHO will be much more successful.

I think that 210 Trade is more certain as it will be very appealing to workers in the BOA building complex, including scores of young, high-earning bank and law firm employees. The sky bridge connection, very short walk and the spectacle of the tower rising from the adjacent block will make 210 Trade the much more popular. Add on potential retail and the best location in the city and I think they've got a real winner.

I'm lukewarm on the Vue due to its reluctance to disclose any of their sales figures and almost desperately intensifying media blitz. I think they've got to be concerned given their previous fast-selling similar project in Florida. All that being said, I'd love to see both of them built. I think it makes non-entertainment retail Uptown much more likely.

FYI, VUE Orlando is, after having reached fifteen stories in the construction process, posting its most spectacular advertisements in our local publications.

So, if VUE Orlando holds any clues for VUE Charlotte, VUE Charlotte is virtually assured to be built.

[stateman99]

So, if VUE Orlando holds any clues for VUE Charlotte, VUE Charlotte is virtually assured to be built.

Not to mention the Vue here in Charlotte announced last week that they had reached the sales requirment necessary and construction will start later this year, even though a lot of people on this site seem scheptical about.

[monsoon]

It's been my experience that places that are doing well don't need to spend money on spectacular adverts in the media. This might or might not apply to the Vue, but the Florida market has a lot of speculation money flowing into it from Europe and I am not so sure the same applies to North Carolina.

[ElricSeven]

It's been my experience that places that are doing well don't need to spend money on spectacular adverts in the media. This might or might not apply to the Vue, but the Florida market has a lot of speculation money flowing into it from Europe and I am not so sure the same applies to North Carolina.

Exactly, and we've seen with the Park that all kinds of hyperbolic projections and promises to "start construction" are made in the industry. Fact is, other than drilling a few holes, they're leagues away from where 210 Trade is right now. I wouldn't be surprised if 210 Trade is nearly finished by the time that the Vue even completes its foundation. If it does move forward.

[UrbanCharlotte]

Well I said both will stay the way they are at 50+. 210 Trade is already going up, and Sleight seems very positive about the Vue.

[Mobuchu]

Well we're a pretty confident group so far. Out of 30 votes, 26 say both will be built at 50+. I hope this is a smart group here on UP.

[stateman99]

Exactly, and we've seen with the Park that all kinds of hyperbolic projections and promises to "start construction" are made in the industry. Fact is, other than drilling a few holes, they're leagues away from where 210 Trade is right now. I wouldn't be surprised if 210 Trade is nearly finished by the time that the Vue even completes its foundation. If it does move forward.

Wasn't the Park kind of sketchy because of the lack of experience of the developer?

[Dale]

It's been my experience that places that are doing well don't need to spend money on spectacular adverts in the media. This might or might not apply to the Vue, but the Florida market has a lot of speculation money flowing into it from Europe and I am not so sure the same applies to North Carolina.

But the point I'm trying to make is that, if VUE Orlando is any indication, spectacular adverts are no indication of desparation, as VUE Orlando is halfway to topping out, and is only now beginning to run its most spectacular ads.

And also, the project was mostly sold prior to groundbreaking, which was well over a year ago.

Thus, I'm not sure why the VUE Charlotte skepticism.

[ElricSeven]

But the point I'm trying to make is that, if VUE Orlando is any indication, spectacular adverts are no indication of desparation, as VUE Orlando is halfway to topping out, and is only now beginning to run its most spectacular ads.

And also, the project was mostly sold prior to groundbreaking, which was well over a year ago.

Thus, I'm not sure why the VUE Charlotte skepticism.

It's mostly their failure to disclose any sales numbers. This is unlike all of the other projects that have done well. They trumpet their numbers if they've done well. What possible motive would they have to withhold good information? Bad numbers, on the other hand, are best left undisclosed for fear of scaring other buyers off.

Skepticism is pretty healthy in any business environment and I'm a numbers guy. You ever take a job on just the assurance that the pay is "compeititive?" My guess is that you'd ask before accepting.

As far as advertising goes, you would expec that if Vue Charlotte or Orlando were entirely, or very nearly sold out, they would stop advertising. Otherwise, it would be foolish waste of money. A lack of an advertising blitz to me would indicate that the project is doing very, very well. None means it is somewhere short of sold out. Combined with a failure to disclose numbers, it shows doubt. Doubt is in the definition of skepticism.

[Dale]

I don't know that this is true, the theory that spectacular advertising blitzes must needs indicate poor sales.

As I recall, VUE Orlando did reveal numbers just prior to, or around the time of groundbreaking. And as I recall, they were very solid.

This being the case, given their very solid pre-start numbers, along with the fact that the project is just now running its most spectacular ads appears to (me) to bode well for VUE Charlotte.

I'm skeptical of your skepticism.

[AuLukey]

I agree with Dale. By saying they met their sales goal to start construction doesn't mean they are nearly sold out. It may mean that once they hit 20% they feel confident, or it could mean they are at 80% but want to put the name out there so that the $3 million penthouses will sell. What's a couple $100k down if you have four or five 3 million penthouses to sell?

[Dale]

And I should further add that, as regards VUE Orlando, these recent, most spectacular ads tend to feature closeups of the upper floors, as well as simulated views from the upper floors.

This leads me to believe that, while they had long ago attained sufficient sales to make their numbers work, there may remain a number of choice units they'd really like close on.

[rockhilljames]

The team doing the VUE is very experienced, researches their markets well, and ad-blitzes everywhere they build.

They're offering a product that Charlotte has never seen before, at a price point that it hasn't seen before.

This project should have a longer sales cycle and a longer development process than most of the towers going up right now.

210 is the closest project in terms of size, but the scope is much different. Most of the development going on now is for the retail portion, which is a huge project in it's own right.

[ElricSeven]

I don't know that this is true, the theory that spectacular advertising blitzes must needs indicate poor sales.

As I recall, VUE Orlando did reveal numbers just prior to, or around the time of groundbreaking. And as I recall, they were very solid.

This being the case, given their very solid pre-start numbers, along with the fact that the project is just now running its most spectacular ads appears to (me) to bode well for VUE Charlotte.

I'm skeptical of your skepticism.

I think the subtlety is somehow lost in translation. I didn't say it "must" indicate poor sales. It indicates something short of a complete sell out. That's not necessarily poor sales, but it certainly isn't completely sold out. In the next step, I looked at their failure to disclose the numbers. That's what makes me skeptical, i.e., there's some doubt in my mind without someone actually saying "We've 70% under contract." No one here can guarantee that the place will be built without this number, thus everyone here is a skeptic to some degree.

I'm pro development too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to rely on sheer faith and shut my brain off. Nothing about how the Vue Orlando did guarantees anything, this is a different building in a different market that requires a tougher sale. I'm aware that I can't guarantee anything either, but that's where the doubt comes in. I guess on these pro-development boards anything less than cheerleading is viewed in a very poor light.

[monsoon]

..... I'm aware that I can't guarantee anything either, but that's where the doubt comes in. I guess on these pro-development boards anything less than cheerleading is viewed in a very poor light.

This isn't a pro-development board. If it were, we would not have this topic in the first place. I know there are pro-development people here, but I think it is balanced out by more skeptical people such as yourself. And of course I tend not to put perfume on the pig either.

[Dale]

I think the subtlety is somehow lost in translation. I didn't say it "must" indicate poor sales. It indicates something short of a complete sell out. That's not necessarily poor sales, but it certainly isn't completely sold out. In the next step, I looked at their failure to disclose the numbers. That's what makes me skeptical, i.e., there's some doubt in my mind without someone actually saying "We've 70% under contract." No one here can guarantee that the place will be built without this number, thus everyone here is a skeptic to some degree.

I'm pro development too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to rely on sheer faith and shut my brain off. Nothing about how the Vue Orlando did guarantees anything, this is a different building in a different market that requires a tougher sale. I'm aware that I can't guarantee anything either, but that's where the doubt comes in. I guess on these pro-development boards anything less than cheerleading is viewed in a very poor light.

True, not entirely sold out. I hope I didn't give that impression.

And neither am I a proponant of blind faith. Nor, do I believe that cheerleading gets buildings built. I'm only forwarding evidence from VUE Orlando which I believe mitigates the impression that VUE Charlotte is in some way struggling.

[ElricSeven]

True, not entirely sold out. I hope I didn't give that impression.

And neither am I a proponant of blind faith. Nor, do I believe that cheerleading gets buildings built. I'm only forwarding evidence from VUE Orlando which I believe mitigates the impression that VUE Charlotte is in some way struggling.

We have the crux of the misunderstanding. I'm not saying it's struggling, I'm saying we're in a position where skepticism is still healthy. A skeptic is someone who wants more information to believe something is true, not someone who believes something is not true. Just because I'm not yet convinced that the Vue is selling well does not necessarily mean I must believe the opposite is true.

[stateman99]

We have the crux of the misunderstanding. I'm not saying it's struggling, I'm saying we're in a position where skepticism is still healthy. A skeptic is someone who wants more information to believe something is true, not someone who believes something is not true. Just because I'm not yet convinced that the Vue is selling well does not necessarily mean I must believe the opposite is true.

So why do u think this won't be built? haha j/k. I understand your point, but I just tend to believe it without any skepticism because of all the the things we have heard. Other than the announcement in the paper, we also have Dale talking about the ad's for the Vue Orlando still at a rapid pace despite the fact that it is being built now. I also remember hearing someone on here, can't remember who (I think UrbanCharlotte but I'm not sure) saying his friend saw the sales chart and it looked as if 50-60 percent of the units where sold. That to me was a big plus. I think with all said that it seems pretty solid now. But I for one understand your reasons for skepticism now.

[Dale]

We have the crux of the misunderstanding. I'm not saying it's struggling, I'm saying we're in a position where skepticism is still healthy. A skeptic is someone who wants more information to believe something is true, not someone who believes something is not true. Just because I'm not yet convinced that the Vue is selling well does not necessarily mean I must believe the opposite is true.

I didn't say you did. But I do believe the tenor of some of the comments on this thread point to the suspicion that, notwithstanding the developer's pronouncements, VUE has really not done sufficiently well to date to warrant such pronouncements.

[ElricSeven]

I didn't say you did. But I do believe the tenor of some of the comments on this thread point to the suspicion that, notwithstanding the developer's pronouncements, VUE has really not done sufficiently well to date to warrant such pronouncements.

Yes, I'm skeptical of the developers announcements without any hard numbers. That doesn't mean I think they're lying, just that I'm not yet going to believe what they're saying until I have those numbers.

[Dale]

Yes, I'm skeptical of the developers announcements without any hard numbers. That doesn't mean I think they're lying, just that I'm not yet going to believe what they're saying until I have those numbers.

Very well then. I will simply leave you with this bit of evidence: by all accounts, the Charlotte team seems to be conducting its business in the same way the Orlando team conducted its business. And VUE Orlando is on the fifteenth floor as we speak.