The Vue vs 210 Trade

[ElricSeven]

You would not be correct in that assumption as I saw the millions that flowed into PTL. People like to forget the past and when that happens, they are bound to repeat the mistakes from those days. The Vue may or may not be built, but what I am saying is there is no practical reason for a building like that in Charlotte beyond the few people who will pay millions for a view and property investors. It's not being built, where you ususally find something like this, because there is a shortage of land.

The one thing I would note is that Furman's smart enough on most of his projects to not charge the kind of ballooned prestige-based prices on all but perhaps the very top floor of his buildings. Much of Courtside sold at $220 per square foot, which compares well with low rise residential in the far flung corners of First Ward. Also, it is less than they charged at Latta when it first went on the market years before. I agree that the buyers in the Vue are rolling the dice. But, perhaps they're so rich it doesn't matter.

[ngp]

For one, it's a stretch to compare dinner to a multimillion dollar home.

What, really? I HAD NO IDEA!

I was actually agreeing with you. My point was that any appreciable benefit to withholding sales numbers is rendered null by the price of the product and the seven day bail out period that buyers have after signing a contract. So, to rephrase the confusing post:

We're not talking about dinner, here. This bait and switch shist wouldn't work on a multi-million dollar home sale in a town with plenty of other options. It will only annoy their potential buyers. I agree with E7's skepticism over the "Let's not scare away potential customers by being honest with numbers" excuse.

Sorry for any confusion.

[monsoon]

Fort Mill, SC?

Okay, I had to go look that one up. Wow...well ummm....hummmm....what a pickle. What in the world was he thinking when this building was commissioned. .......

Well my piont exactly. Good marketing can sell anything. It's the reality that often hurts after the fact.

[stateman99]

Man, how would you revise the height downward on a project? You'd have to scrap the whole thing. If I was under contract on something high up and they wanted to shorten the building, I'd tell them to kiss my arse.

Good point. I wouldn't think the project would be shortened myself. I think there are people around who say, I want to live as high as possible for the better view. They would choose the view over others in fact because even if other towers are built around it, they would still be above the tops of these buildings if they were in the upper floors. The difference in going up an elevator an extra 20 floors is not nearly as bad as actually walking that extra difference. I don't know, that is my point of view. I realize they would have probably more stops that way, but for that kind of view, I think it would be worth it.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

It's been sitting like that for close to two decades. I suspect the primary reason it has not been re-developed is there simply is no market for a 22 story condo in Fort Mill, SC.

I was told the primary reason it hasn't been developed is the building is beyond reasonable repair. It wasn't completed, was damaged by a hurricane and is in several stages of decay. IIRC, the tower was condemed. The entire complex would've made a great mixed use development; a city within a city.

ETA: Some of the buildings on the complex are in use. It's still mostly wasted space, but isn't completely a ghost town.

[monsoon]

Any building that has sat empty for 2 decades is most likely only going to be ready for the wreaking ball.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

Metro, that is unfortunately the tower's future. I don't when it will be demolished, but eventually it will be gone for good. What a waste.

[ElricSeven]

What, really? I HAD NO IDEA!

I was actually agreeing with you. My point was that any appreciable benefit to withholding sales numbers is rendered null by the price of the product and the seven day bail out period that buyers have after signing a contract. So, to rephrase the confusing post:

We're not talking about dinner, here. This bait and switch shist wouldn't work on a multi-million dollar home sale in a town with plenty of other options. It will only annoy their potential buyers. I agree with E7's skepticism over the "Let's not scare away potential customers by being honest with numbers" excuse.

Sorry for any confusion.

Good point. I wouldn't think the project would be shortened myself. I think there are people around who say, I want to live as high as possible for the better view. They would choose the view over others in fact because even if other towers are built around it, they would still be above the tops of these buildings if they were in the upper floors. The difference in going up an elevator an extra 20 floors is not nearly as bad as actually walking that extra difference. I don't know, that is my point of view. I realize they would have probably more stops that way, but for that kind of view, I think it would be worth it.

Maybe they need a condo that looks like the CN tower. Take out all the middle units.

hehheh

How cool would that be?

[cinco]

uptown real-estate is hot right now. for many reasons people want to live there and alot of them will choose to live in a highrise. i, for one, am not attracted by the idea of living high up... but everytime i see an episode of FRAISER... man, who wouldn't want that place.

also, if you owned 1/4 of a city block... wouldn't the potential for return be higher if you successfully built taller. the point is land may not be scarce in uptown charlotte in general, but when you think about it in terms of how a developer is to utilize his/her piece for maximum benefit... well, that kind of real-estate profitability could be scarce. when you draw a line around the area uptown that would even allow highrise building... it creates an exclusive island... thus making the land uptown, scarce. obviously, that line is not permanent like the hudson or east rivers... but you see my point.

[tiblerbrit]

Isn't that the tower at Heritage Park? Wasn't that a Christian based community who's owner got busted for money laundering and paying people off, that kind of press isn't gonna sell any units. Combine that with that fact that its a tower in Fort Mill and I'm suprised anyone would have moved there anyway. I'm not sure this condo tower can be compared with the Vue. Maybe a more valid comparison would be between the Arlington and the Vue.

In fact, I remember going to the water park when I was younger and this building wasn't even finished, even though it had been left for a few years at this point (~1995). I think he had to liquidate his assets before its completion.

[monsoon]

Isn't that the tower at Heritage Park? Wasn't that a Christian based community who's owner got busted for money laundering and paying people off, that kind of press isn't gonna sell any units.

LOL, This was not a speculation tower as they did not start to build it until the people started to send in the money. The tower was paid for by thousands of people willing to send in a $1000 or more to reserve space in the building. The people that sent in the money lost it. The organization came down because of a sex scandle involving Jessica Hann (who became famous for it) and the feds eventually got Bakker for tax evasion. The millions sent in to finish the tower disappeared and was never tracked down. Some say that Tammy Fay's second husband got it, but nobody knows.

The point of bringing this episode up is that some people will invest in in real estate, regardless of how how much sense it might make in the long run, if they feel they are going to miss out. In the case above, they lost their investment and an empty tower sits there as testimate to that folly.

What PTL lacked that the Vue and 210 Trade have to face was scrutiney from their financial institutions. If the Vue and others are not releasing sales figures it might be because they don't want to admit that two 50 story towers, selling at above $400 sq/ft are not going to be supported in Charlotte at this time. It seems to me if they were selling out, you would be seeing signs with something like. "Hurry!!!! only X number left, and when they are gone they are gone". But we are not.

[MZT]

Kinda like the two Malls proposed for Mint Hill. The bad news in that example, is that it seems like neither one is moving forward.

[Rickydavisfan21]

what was the tower at heritage park?

[rockhilljames]

"You know, the 2nd highest residential tower in SC, and currently the 4th highest in the Charlotte metro sits completely empty, because the market disappeared out from under its feet."

Not quite. The Heritage Tower was only marketed to followers of PTL, they were sold as retirement homes, timeshares, or vacation condos in Heritage USA. Bakker was still selling the fantasy of a growing, vibrant Christian resort when in fact he was sucking as much money from the project as possible. The earnest money sent in from units sold was never put into construction and the building never went beyond the outer shell before Heritage USA went tits-up after Bakker's scandal and embezzelment schemes were uncovered.

That tower wasn't planned as a condo tower in Fort Mill, it was a condo project in the middle of a resort, not unheard of in resorts across the country. (by the way Lady Celeste, Rock Hill does have some things going for it, if you get a chance stop by and I'll take you on a tour).

Comparing the Vue and 210 to the Heritage condo is Apples vs Oranges. Fact is, the developers for both the Vue and 210 know what they're doing, they judged the Charlotte market and proposed the plans they thought would work. It remains to be seen whether or not either or both of the projects see completion, but I haven't seen anything so far to make me feel otherwise. In fact, I feel pretty good about both.

Metro, it's not about the fact that undeveloped land still exists around these projects. If that were the sole driver of condo towers Nashville wouldn't be proposing a 1000'+ tower with a residential component. I think that both towers can and will work in the market, and that we'll continue to see condo towers in the near future. The Charlotte market was and is vastly underserved in regards to true high-rise living. A visit to most cities in the country will uncover more high-rise living then we currently have in Charlotte.

The number of projects in the pipeline and under construction may cause some to pause at the moment, but these aren't projects that developers are going to sink millions into without studying the market first.

[monsoon]

Metro, it's not about the fact that undeveloped land still exists around these projects. If that were the sole driver of condo towers Nashville wouldn't be proposing a 1000'+ tower with a residential component. I think that both towers can and will work in the market, and that we'll continue to see condo towers in the near future. The Charlotte market was and is vastly underserved in regards to true high-rise living. A visit to most cities in the country will uncover more high-rise living then we currently have in Charlotte.

If you read my comments on the Signature tower, you will find that I question the sense of the building of that tower as well. The Signature tower, the Vue and 210 Trade are all still proposals at this point.

I was not comparing the PTL directly to the Vue and 210 Trade. I was comparing the illusion created by the marketing of those places that created the buyers for these properties. If you remember there were questions about the viability of this project even back into the mid-80s when Bakker was still proposing it when he was based on Park Rd. Despite that, thousands of people sent in their money for a place in this building because they did not do their homework, and they bought in to the theory, "I better get one now while I can". Never mind it didn't make any practical sense.

The difference between the PTL property and the others are that the others are going to demonstrate financial viablility before the banks will give them a construction loan to put up the towers. That means sufficient sales of the very expensive property to get to that point so we are not going to see empty towers built this time. However I believe that either one of the properties will be scaled back, or you are going to seem some very husth up price cuts in order to get these places built.

[stateman99]

The Signature tower, the Vue and 210 Trade are all still proposals at this point.

I think 210 Trade is a little more than a proposal at this point.

[keer5771]

I think 210 Trade is a little more than a proposal at this point.

Agreed - foundation is being poured for a 50+ story tower, and with that kind of land number, the deal doesn't work without the tower component. It would have never proceeded as a "proposal".

[MZT]

210 is a harder one or me to imagine falling through. The city has too much at stake for it's image, to allow a huge hole or unfinished skeleton to exist right next to the bank HQ's and the uptown signature light rail station.

[monsoon]

I think 210 Trade is a little more than a proposal at this point.

Do you have specific knowledge or is this just an opinion. I am not trying to give you a hard time, but if you know something that has not been presented here, we all of course would be interested to hear it. I think it has already been mentioned above they are building the epicenter portion of the project. It's not clear that they have to have a tower there as well for that part to be successful.

[stateman99]

No nothing specific. I just feel for the work and concrete they put into the job so far (for the tower portion) wouldn't be done for just the hope that they sold enough units to build the rest of it. Plus, given what was said on the threads earlier that this project is fully financed and there are no pre-sale requirements. I understand the schepticism, but I tend to believe this one is a for sure, even more so than the Vue which I believe firmly in due to there announcement a couple of weeks ago. I mean people keep saying I wont believe in a given project being "for sure" until a shovel goes into the ground. Well, the shovel has gone into the the ground and concrete has been poured on this one already.

[ElricSeven]

No nothing specific. I just feel for the work and concrete they put into the job so far (for the tower portion) wouldn't be done for just the hope that they sold enough units to build the rest of it. Plus, given what was said on the threads earlier that this project is fully financed and there are no pre-sale requirements. I understand the schepticism, but I tend to believe this one is a for sure, even more so than the Vue which I believe firmly in due to there announcement a couple of weeks ago. I mean people keep saying I wont believe in a given project being "for sure" until a shovel goes into the ground. Well, the shovel has gone into the the ground and concrete has been poured on this one already.

Once the foundation is poured, even if the current promoter fails, that foundation would be too much of a value for a buyout in bankruptcy. Someone's going to carry the ball over the goal line once that foundation is in, barring a collapse of the condo market Uptown.

[keer5771]

Do you have specific knowledge or is this just an opinion. I am not trying to give you a hard time, but if you know something that has not been presented here, we all of course would be interested to hear it. I think it has already been mentioned above they are building the epicenter portion of the project. It's not clear that they have to have a tower there as well for that part to be successful.

Ghazi bought the land for something like $14 mm. That's over $4 mm per acre. There's no way on earth a 3-story retail project could stand on its own two legs with that kind of land number and no major public assistance. This is College St., not 5th Avenue.

Clearly, all parties have committed, financially and otherwise, to move forward, as evidenced by the TWENTY-FOUR HOUR foundation pour a couple weeks ago. Nothing makes sense here without the tower - it's a definite go.

[rockhilljames]

Metro, I take your point about the Heritage tower, people bought on speculation based on their support (however misguided) of PTL. At the end of the day, it's not uncommon to see a condo tower at a resort, so I don't think it was idle speculation, just a backing of the wrong people.

You and I merely disagree in the strength of the Charlotte market. Based on your comments, I'm taking it that you don't feel that Charlotte's market can support those size towers at those price points. In that, you and I disagree. I think that not only is the market here, but it is relatively untapped and growing.

I don't think we'll see similarly sized towers any time soon, more along the lines of the 20 - 30 story towers, but high-rise living in Charlotte is coming on the scene at the right place and at the right time. If you really look at Charlotte, you can see a convergence of factors right now; renewed interest in downtown living, a growing population of transplants used to urban living, an economic boom fueled by white-collar jobs, and a center city gaining enough momentum to be self-sustaining.

It could all end tomorrow, but I feel we'll see this residential boom continue for at least the next 10 years.

[monsoon]

I do think the residential boom will continue as long the county population continues to rise by 25,000 people/year.

[monsoon]

I will say that recent announcements as put forth in the 210 Trade thread, including comments from the one of the very developers responsible for the project, have got to be putting some heat on the Vue. Maybe we will see some equivalent renderings from them detailing exactly what they intend to build in Charlotte. Of course a few steam shovels might help with the doubt too.