Historic Intown Neighborhoods

[travey]

We lived in Hampton Heights in 1970-71 and my brother went to the school being talked about. I thought it was called Spring St. Elem. but it may have been Southside. I started kindergarten in 1972 and attended Mary H. Wright. My brother was in 2nd grade and remained at Spring St(or Southside) It could have been the first year of desegregation. Gosh....I am old.

[Jael]

We lived in Hampton Heights in 1970-71 and my brother went to the school being talked about. I thought it was called Spring St. Elem. but it may have been Southside. I started kindergarten in 1972 and attended Mary H. Wright. My brother was in 2nd grade and remained at Spring St(or Southside) It could have been the first year of desegregation. Gosh....I am old.

Well, I feel better about having to struggle to remember if you lived over there and are confused! ;-)

I've been to the building that was the elementary school once after it became the Arts Center, but as for Jenkins, I don't think I was ever in it. My parents were very strict about where I could go for things, and I don't remember even being allowed to go to basketball games at Jenkins or Cleveland. I couldn't even go to our own being held at Evans if it was a school night.

Re being old, you're just a spring chicken if you started kindergarten in 1972 - I graduated from college the year before that!

[Sparkleman]

So I've got some extra time at lunch today so I cruise down Carlisle St in Hampton Heights. Its looking pretty good with 3 houses for sale that have been renovated and 2 others actually being renovated. I wonder what the going prices are? The street itself has new light posts up and has been cleaned up. Its been a long time coming but it looks like The Preservation Trust (neighborhood association?) and the city know what they are doing.

[Spartan]

The ones on Carlisle range from $90k to $125k. These places are a steal.

[Spartan]

So I am home for the weekend. Today I drove over to Hampton Heights and just rode around for a few minutes. This is the first time in years that I've been able to go to HH on a weekday, and let me say that the progress of this neighborhood continues to impress me. First of all, one of the most important signs of a neighborhood's come-back is that you see women walking around alone or pushing strollers or kids playing. I saw all but kids playing (but its also a school day). This is a key sign that the neighborhood's residents feel safe. The new streetlights on Spring Street take you all the way to Morgan Square, and they have rebuilt some old sections of sidewalk along this stretch.

The bike lanes add a lot to the community, though I don't know that they are necessary on W Hampton Ave. I'll discuss this more in the BikeTown thread.

[Sparkleman]

The ones on Carlisle range from $90k to $125k. These places are a steal.

No offense, but I think that's a little over priced for the neighborhood.

[Spartan]

Why do you say that?

[Sparkleman]

If they range from 90k to 125k, lets just say that the average is 110k and according to the tax records for Carlisle St the average living square footage is anywhere from 900 to 1300 square feet so lets use 1200 square feet as an average. 110,000 divided by 1200 equals out to about $91.66 a square foot. Anybody that pays that per square foot for Hampton Heights needs a head check. The going rate for Hillbrook is $80-$90 per square foot and its in a way better school district. The same could be said for Duncan Park. Plus the houses in Hampton Heights are a zillion years old so even renovated the plumbing, wiring, or whatever else ails in an old house is bound to expire at anytime. I grew up in Converse Heights so I know all about stuff that can happen even in renovated houses. Don't get me wrong in that I am not slamming HH, I just feel the houses are over priced for the square footage you are getting.

[Spartan]

I see your point, but IMO thats a $2 per square foot difference, and thats not a big deal to me when you consider the benefits of living in that neighborhood (walking distance to downtown, center of the city, unique/interesting architecture, etc). I'm also viewing this from the Charlotte lens, where houses like these get snatched up quickly, and for much, much more money (like double or triple those costs). You get a lot less house for those prices in Charlotte, and in comparatively worse neighborhoods, so to me thats a steal.

The Preservation Trust also cuts some good deals on loans to repair the old houses. For someone like me with no kids, and who doesn't want a large house and lawn like is available in Hillbrook, this is the ideal situation.

[Sparkleman]

I guess I can see your point on buying one if you're single (I didn't but downtown was a little deader 10 years ago) or don't want to do yard work but to me to spend that kind of money for basically what is a studio apartment in the form of a house its a bit of a stretch. The whole key is if you want to be close to downtown enough to want to live over there. I know they are working hard to revitalize the neighborhood and make it safer and I hope they succeed, but you are still on the fringe of some pretty rough places. Thats why HH has never been as embraced as Converse Heights is. Converse Heights went through a very rough stretch in the 70's when almost all the houses were about to fall in but then the renovations began. The thing they didn't have working against them was the safety in the neighborhood and the school district.

[Spartan]

Yeah and I agree with you there. I would not have wanted to move to HH 10 years ago, and certainly in the 70s and 80s most of Spartanburg's older neighborhoods except Converse Heights were very run down. Though 1200 square feet is not a studio by any stretch When you pay that much for 500 sq feet and still consider it a good deal, then we can start talking about craziness

I suspect you will disagree on my following statements, but I very strongly believe that urban neighborhoods like Hampton Heights are going to see a rebound in the coming years. This is following a national trend of reviving older urban neighborhoods as generic subdivisions like you tend to find in Boiling Springs become less popular and start to fall apart and lose value because of poor construction and general living conditions. You can't walk anywhere, you have to sit in awful traffic all the time, and you spend lots of time commuting via car. This is on top of the problem of national mortgage companies giving loans to people who never should have could have afforded them in the first place. Now, in Spartanburg this decay is going to be less pronounced than in places like Charlotte because you can still live in a quality suburban setting like Hillbrook or Woodridge and still have reasonable commutes to wherever you work in the County.

My point is that the urban neighborhoods are going to be revitalized over time. Its not going to be fast, but I think it will happen. I personally view it as an investment potential. The neighborhood is getting better as I noted in my post on Friday. The return potential on housing in places like this is very high. IMO, Hampton Heights has the potential to be another "Converse Heights" over time, including price points.

[Sparkleman]

Actually Spartan, I do agree with you to a point. Folks have been talking about an HH revival for many years now and I think its is finally going to come to fruition. The deal is though is how much are those houses going to appreciate. I don't see how they can appreciate much for what you are getting. If you are content to live there forever, then its a good deal. However if you have a job that may move you or you decide that HH is not for you, getting your money back and then some could be tough. I actually tend to think some of the houses over in the Oakland Avenue area could fare much better as the neighborhood is better and closer to the action downtown.

As far as Boiling Springs is concerned, I don't see that train slowing down anytime soon. I have many friends as well as a business partner that live up there and love it. Sure the traffic sucks, but you just deal with it. There are many houses up there that were built in the 60's, 70's and 80's to were very well built and many of the folks up there could care less about what happens downtown as many have either been up there a long time or have moved up there because they could not get what they wanted ijn town. In fact BS is finally starting to get something they never really had before; restaurants. Sure the first ones are really bad chains, but once folks realize the amount of coin that is up there, many others (good ones ) will follow. Its just a different dynamic up there where folks want new houses with all the amenities. I'm sure you see a ton of this in Charlotte like out in Cornelius, NC which used to be nothing 10 years ago.

I like you think urban neighborhoods can and will be revitalized, just not to the extent of say a Converse Heights (there are many reasons here and this can be a whole other topic). As for investment potential, you may be able to "flip" a house in HH, Oakland Avenue section, or Converse College area or you may be able to buy and rent them out. But if you do the renting thing, thats the first step to returning the neighborhood to where you are currently trying to get it out of.

Edited March 23, 2008 by Sparkleman

[Spartan]

Yeah you have a point. I think that the revitalization costs aren't as big of a deal as you might think because it happens here in Charlotte all the time... well, if they don't tear the old houses down first. I think Hampton Heights is a special target because it is so unique even for Spartanburg. The other neighborhoods have a lot of mill houses, so the architectural variety isn't quite as diverse, though even those neighborhoods have a lot of character despite the fact that they are run down and not very safe at night. Cleveland Park comes to mind as a potentially great neighborhood.

Regarding Boiling Springs, my comments were directed more towards the newer subdivisions that are going in up there where all the houses look exactly the same. That trend is more recent, and there is indeed some quality housing stock in that area. Thats also why Boiling Springs isn't going anywhere. I think the nature of that area will ultimately have to change in order for it to remain viable, but I also think that the people who live there are going to demand it. I think that people there like the way it is, and if they want to deal with that traffic then thats their problem They've tried to incorporate a couple of times, and even though it never passes, its still a sign that people feel a sense of community around that place.

I agree that The North Dean/Oakland Ave area has some great potential to be a cool intown neighborhood. It needs an identity and it needs some gentrification, but after that happens, it would be a great place to live. In fact, I'm surprised that one hasn't taken off already. But hey, one neighborhood at a time, right? Supposedly Beaumont is on the list too.

Spartanburg's intown neighborhoods would surprise many people. They are off the beaten paths, but with the proper infrastructure upgrades they could be lively places again. Each of the old mill towns in the city has at least one great street that has lots of larger houses that were clearly where the upper management of the mills lived. North Liberty St in Beaumont and Saxon Heights in Saxon come to mind. The potential of this city is limitless... but we just need something to generate the demand to make it happen.

[Sparkleman]

Well, the folks in HH demanded a grocery story and low and behold about 10 years after Community Cash/Green Galaxy closed, they finally got one. To me, this is the starting point for HH to rise up as a neighborhood. This along with safer streets and the neighborhood taking pride in what they are building will allow it to continue to grow. The North Dean/Oakland Ave neighborhood is smaller as it has been cut up some to form Barnet Park and a lot of houses that were part of the old "GasTown" have been razed and are now just vacant land waiting on whatever the Renaisance chooses to do with them. I highly doubt they will build new houses. But I have heard the CC Woodson Center is making improovements and many of the houses in the small section have been updated. This used to be a horrible, crime ridden neighborhood, but I think its pretty safe these days. Plus as you mentioned, the houses that are left have cool features and interesting archetecture. I think it would help some if the places of business on Hall, Alabama, Dean, & Oakland maybe moved out as these became residential again instead of commercial.

I also feel a grocery store of sorts is going to be needed somewhere downtown to help serve these folks and others like them. Spartan do you have any ideas on where a grocery store would fit in downtown? I was thinking possibly beside Vic Bailey Lincoln Mercury on all the empty space on Daniel Morgan.

[Spartan]

Yeah, if you haven't been by the former Phyllis Goins Apartments on Collins Ave, you should check those out. They've been completely removed and replaced by some relatively nice housing... I think its called "Collins Park" now. The latest concept for affordable housing is to have mixed income neighborhoods rather than concentrate poverty in one area. Mixed income neighborhoods are much more stable, and studies show that low income people are more likely to be productive citizens when in this setting. Most or all of the Spartanburg Housing Authority housing units are being replaced over time.

With Renaissance Park, it is supposed to have mixed use developments, meaning that some housing will be returned. The former GasTown area housing may not be much of a loss since they were unimproved shotgun housing. I think the houses that are left are probably the better of the houses from that era.

I've often thought about a grocery store, and I am not sure where the ideal location would be. It needs to be near the center of downtown so that new residents there can walk to it. But it should also be near at least one other neighborhood and near a major road. My only concern with the Vic Bailey location on Daniel Morgan is that its so far removed from most of downtown that its almost not downtown anymore. Its too far for most people to walk to. Honestly, if they could tear down the Goodyear place at Kennedy & Church, they could build a nice midrise with a grocery store --ideally a Publix or Harris Teeter-- on that lot. It would have great visibility and access. Do you (or anyone else) have thoughts on that idea? Other ideas?

[Sparkleman]

I've often thought about a grocery store, and I am not sure where the ideal location would be. It needs to be near the center of downtown so that new residents there can walk to it. But it should also be near at least one other neighborhood and near a major road. My only concern with the Vic Bailey location on Daniel Morgan is that its so far removed from most of downtown that its almost not downtown anymore. Its too far for most people to walk to. Honestly, if they could tear down the Goodyear place at Kennedy & Church, they could build a nice midrise with a grocery store --ideally a Publix or Harris Teeter-- on that lot. It would have great visibility and access. Do you (or anyone else) have thoughts on that idea? Other ideas?

I think the Daniel Morgan location would be perfect as it is a 4 lane road along with access to Pine St, there is plenty of room for parking, and if its a Publix, Super Bi Lo, etc, Converse Heights folks would use it as well as most of the CH hate Ingles which is the closest grocery to them. You are going to be on the back side of Barnet Park so it would be an easy stop to pick up additional picnic items before an event. You would also be right down the street from Beaumont/Drayton which might help jump start that neighborhood. You also would be close to the Wofford St neighborhood which hasn't had a grocery since the Community Cash where Kapasi Glass is now closed many years ago.

If you put it where Goodyear is, thats less than a mile from where the new Sav More opened to serve HH and the city's southside. I also don't think folks would want to park in the Kennedy St parking deck (which they would have to due to no other place to park) and carry groceries that far.

[Spartan]

There was also a Community Cash on Union St where Carolina Cash Co. is now and on Pine Street where Express Music used to be, right?

What you say is true. But you're thinking in terms of a standard grocery store. Harris Teeter and Publix specialize in urban stores that are more compact (they have a smaller footprint) and therefore require less parking. They have them in most other larger cities in the state. Greenville has a new Publix on McBee Street that is this style. Columbia has one on Gervais and Rosewood. I think its important to serve the potential neighborhoods in and around downtown. Beaumont and Drayton have a shiny new Food Lion on Garner Rd to use

[Sparkleman]

There was also a Community Cash on Union St where Carolina Cash Co. is now and on Pine Street where Express Music used to be, right?

The Community Cash on Union was actually down from Carolina Cash where the Merit Co is now. There was not one on Pine St. Those stores were something called Colonial Grocery stores. They didn't last very long.

I know the type of store you are talking about but I really don't see that being a big hit here as people of the "SC" have always shopped at the bigger stores. Its probably because we have always had a lot of storage space in houses vs apartment living where space is limited. I just don't see folks walking to the grocery store and carrying groceries home in the rain if they don't have to. The type of store you are talking about may work when you get a lot more folks downtown (like Greenville has done over the last 15 years), but I think a standard one would do killer until we get to that point.

[Spartan]

Ah ok, I see the confusion. I was talking about in the future assuming that it would be at least that far out. I realize I didn't specifically say that. My apologies. There is no way we'll get a grocery store intown anywhere before then. IMO if we can't get an urban grocery store, we may as well not get one at all. Suburban design is not acceptable in downtown. Really what we need is a major white collar employer to move in to downtown. We could then support a larger drug store than Smith No. 1 and perhaps a small grocery store. This would also help boost demand for downtown housing, and probably boost the volume of people who can and who want to afford it.

[Sparkleman]

Well, I'll go ahead and disagree here. I think a grocery store planted on Daniel Morgan near Vic Bailey Lincoln/Mercury would be a smash hit. It doesn't need to be a monster store and it would be about 3-4 blocks away from the proposed action dowtown. Plus it would not be that easy to get to from downtown as Converse St stops at the CCC. But it would be easy for the folks of the surrounding neighborhoods to get to. I don't just mean Oakland Ave section and Converse Heights but also the neighborhood behind the county offices where the Spartan Mills plant used to be. They used to be serviced by the Community Cash on the corner of Evins St and Church and are another intown neighborhood that is conveniently forgotten. One of the ideas here is to get folks downtown and if a grocery store will do the job and stay out of the way, so be it.

[Spartan]

I still think its too close to that Food Lion. I think we're in agreement that a grocery store would be a good idea in downtown. I think we just disagree on the location and probably timing. One option that we haven't mentioned is that it could be built as an anchor in the new urban village that is proposed for Renaissance Park, or possibly along North Church somewhere. The parking lot behind the County Courthouse at St John & Daniel Morgan would be an ideal location. High traffic volume, high visibility, lots of parking, walkable to the downtown core...

I will agree that Vic Bailey needs to move out. That is a horrible place for a dealership. Oh and while we're moving car dealerships, Wakefield Buick and Joe Gibson's kingdom on West Main need to move too.

[Sparkleman]

If the grocery store were to be modeled after the ones on Hilton Head Island where they are subdued and blend in with the surroundings, I don't think it would matter where you put it. You may not remember but in addition to the original Food Lion that was at Pinewood into mid 70's to late 80's there was also a Community Cash (they were everywhere) over where Roses was (now Big Lots)an old style BiLo over where Sky City used to be. Thats 3 grocery stores within 1 mile and much like what takes place over at Hillcrest now. Face it, a grocery store really has to screw up to not make it. I still think the location on Daniel Morgan is good just because it is one of the larger blocks of land in downtown that is available.

I'm not too big on car lots either but at least they are not in the immediate way. Vic's empire used to be out past USC-Upstate but that was long ago and I don't see him moving back out there. His operown helped tear down the remnants of Gastown. If he would not have moved in town, who knows how long those horrible old "houses" may have stayed around.

[Spartan]

I just don't see people walking to that location from the core of downtown, or any of the in-town neighborhoods except that North Dean area and possibly the section of Beaumont that is behind Wofford. If a grocery store is going to locate downtown, walkability will be key.

[roads-scholar]

I just don't see people walking to that location from the core of downtown, or any of the in-town neighborhoods except that North Dean area and possibly the section of Beaumont that is behind Wofford. If a grocery store is going to locate downtown, walkability will be key.

I think a "walkable" location for an urban grocery store is somewhere on East Kennedy Street. A developer would have to cobble together some property but a store at this location would be convenient for autos and pedestrians.

I've always felt Kennedy Street was a hodgepodge of small businesses and downtown would benefit from a larger commercial development there.

[Sparkleman]

I'm sorry fellas but I just don't see the urban grocery store working out here until there are more folks downtown and even then it might be a stretch. I know you see it in other cities but we are not like other cities. Time moves way slower here. Heck, it took us 10 years just to get an Olive Garden (as if thats a big deal). People are not used to walking in the "SC" unless its for exercise. They are more apt to pick up groceries on the way home from work or to do some errand. I just don't see folks here making a special trip to the store and walking to do it. Call me backwards, but Spartanburg ain't NYC, Charlotte, or even close to Greenville.