Michigan's Freeway system.

[6th Gen local]

on the subject of Wilson not being that busy, I disagree very much, I'm not in town right now, but aren't they widening it from 28th up thru lake michigan dr.? Wilson is not only packed full of cars for a two lane rd. It's also one of the deadliest on that stretch, in Kent County.

Its basically getting widened from O'Brien North to Lake Michigan Drive. The longer stretch from O'Brien South to 28th Street isn't getting widened this year from what I can see. It really could use 5 lanes from 28th to Rememberance Road.

[Ka3kab]

Actually GRDad, the bridge was lined up perfectly. Unfortunately, hot weather caused the sections to expand, crushing the expansion joints, which then knocked two piers out of plumb destroying the foundations of those, following by one of the bridge sections sagging 11 feet below where it was supposed to be. I remember when I was young seeing the bridge unfinished for a few years while the state decided whether it should be torn down, left abandoned, or finished. The way it was built was widely debated during that time. Obviouisly it was finished, but the bridge has a track record of problems. But for now, it serves us well.

I met one of the engineers working on the bridge, and he still believes it should have never been built in the first place. The other proposal was to have improved I-675 and directed traffic around the lifting bridge when things got tied up.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I hate bridges. My Grandparents used to live on Wixom Lake north of Midland and I remember that bridge from the time I was something like 5 y.o. and not being finished until I was 10 or 11. It's a giant, concrete lego set. Prefab'ed somewhere and put together on site. No thanks, I'll stick to 675, not so many billboards anyway.

[dtown]

are you talking about the US 10 bridge? I always wonered why they put right through the middle of a lake.

[grrwymg]

Its basically getting widened from O'Brien North to Lake Michigan Drive. The longer stretch from O'Brien South to 28th Street isn't getting widened this year from what I can see. It really could use 5 lanes from 28th to Rememberance Road.

Couldn't agree more, 6th. With the continued (supposed) growth of Millenium park and the continued growth in the Standale district of Walker, traffic is bound to continue to increase. It's bad enough already. Having 5 lanes would definately alleviate the cluster that is Wilson Ave. currently.

[A Slice of Pie]

Of course an extension of M-6 to complete the loop around GR would be extremely useful. No one can deny that. Well.... judging from the responses on this board, I guess some people could deny it....

Sure, it you like more endless sprawl in GR.

if you build it, they will come, and we have seen that thus far with the south beltline

Yes, because of course those cars magically appeared on M-6 as soon as it opened. Poof! Out of thin air! Those cars didn't exist before November 17, 2004, and suddenly those cars materialized. It's not as though that traffic was using other inadequate and less efficient roads before M-6 was built....

im sure there is just as much sprawl in the ann arbor area.

Sprawl in Ann Arbor?? Where? Any sort of growth potential for this area has been squashed with the recent PDR millage boondoggle.

Michi, those are some nice pictures of I-75 in the Saginaw-Bay City area. I just recently moved to MI and am looking forward to touring and taking photos of the state's excellent highway system.

[GRDadof3]

Sprawl in Ann Arbor?? Where? Any sort of growth potential for this area has been squashed with the recent PDR millage boondoggle.

Wishful thinking. What about Saline, Ypsi Township, Plymouth/Canton area, and the fact that Livingston County is one of the fastest growing rural counties in the State. Those people don't all work in Detroit. Many commute to A2.

[tracer1138]

Of course an extension of M-6 to complete the loop around GR would be extremely useful. No one can deny that. Well.... judging from the responses on this board, I guess some people could deny it....

Yes, because of course those cars magically appeared on M-6 as soon as it opened. Poof! Out of thin air! Those cars didn't exist before November 17, 2004, and suddenly those cars materialized. It's not as though that traffic was using other inadequate and less efficient roads before M-6 was built....

Actually, Highways do create their own congestion... we have a saying in the urban planning field

"you can't build your way out of congestion"

It makes sense when you think about it logically and economically.

Every time you expand or build new a highway it reduces the time + money cost of living in that area effectivily making it cheaper to build new - subsidizing sprawl.

In this way expansion of highways opens up new land for development, a sort of open invitation. As people move out (often with little actual population growth), zoning forces subdivisions to spread over larger and larger areas (a result of people being able to afford land made cheaper and cheaper by highways).

The further people are away from amenitites and from each other, the more often and the further they have to drive...

ergo

Congestion.

The problem is, we use the predict and supply method of transportation planning - land use affects the actions we take.

We look at current trends of population expansion and we build highways to accomodate that spread, whereas we might consider that the actions we take might affect land use ie. by not expanding roads/highways, the development wouldn't materialize (remember, this isn't so much new development as it is just people moving further and further out).

The highways were originally supposed to be an inter-city mechanism instead of the intra-city system we have now.

As stated previously, building highways to their originally planned standards (as eisenhower had imagined them) - with fewer, more spread out exists and fewer penetrations into inner cities might have done a better job of keeping sprawl in check.

On top of that, the closer people live to amenities and each other (vis-a-vis higher density) the less overall driving they have to do, decreasing per capita congestion.

It's a little bit counterintuitive.

It's an often unrealized truth that the easier you make it for people to get into the cities via highways (ie ripping up neighborhoods and huge swaths of land on behalf of our expansive asphault friends) the more likely they are to live further and further out (in this way, even commuter rail built too far out into the countryside can induce sprawl).

In short, the more highways we build in this state, the more the land is just going to get eaten up, the more clogged our existing highways will get.

Don't get me wrong, I think highways are a vital link in our transportation grid, but we're a nation of extremists and in this case, it is possible to have too much of good thing.

Sprawl in Ann Arbor?? Where? Any sort of growth potential for this area has been squashed with the recent PDR millage boondoggle.

Apparently you haven't been privy to Ann Arbor's development news as of late.

Unlike many other cities in our state, Ann Arbor is in fact having a difficult time containing it's growth.

Downtown, the city has had to turn down numerous proposals for highrises because the influx of would be more than it can handle.

On top of that, google is moving 1000 jobs into the area (possibly downtown)

And the areas south and east of AA certainly aren't at a loss for high tech development.

I like the idea, unfortunatly it will never happen. I think a high speed rail line connecting Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Detroit along i96 is what I want to see.

The only reason it would never happen is because you and others have that attitude toward it.

That's why we have study after study... when the researchers go and survey the public perception all they hear is "It'll never happen, it'll never happen!" They respond to that and so...

It never happens

End of Rant

[roads-scholar]

This is a little off-topic, but I guess this thread could present more than one topic.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone thinks that the M6 highway (SouthBeltline) would ever be expanded further west, and then north, eventually connecting to I-96, as kind of a west by-pass for U.S. 131, and also serving traffic to the Allendale/Mid Ottawa County croud...

I don't see the need right now, maybe in 15-20 years. A much bigger need is widening the M-6. Sprawl is beginning to affect traffic especially between M-37 and US-31.

[GR8scott]

I don't see the need right now, maybe in 15-20 years. A much bigger need is widening the M-6. Sprawl is beginning to affect traffic especially between M-37 and US-31.

I totally agree on that one. I was a little dissapointed right away with only 4 lanes (and exit lanes between kalamazoo and Byron center) I thought it should be 6 lanes between 131 and m37 the most used section and near the airport. theres always a little slowdown just east of kalamazoo. The good thing is that the bridges are already wider to accomadate more lanes

a side note, when you merge onto Southbound 131 theres always a problem merging when 3 lanes of 131 and 2 merge lanes (5 traffic lanes) go down to 2 tatal at 76th street about a 1/2 farther. 131 should be 3 lanes in each direction to at least 84th, if not, 100th street, or all the way to I-94

[GRDadof3]

I don't see the need right now, maybe in 15-20 years. A much bigger need is widening the M-6. Sprawl is beginning to affect traffic especially between M-37 and US-31.

Ha, the "build your way out of congestion" principle has been played out all over the country, and has failed miserably. I don't think any of the highways around GR should be widened until some serious State dollars are invested in mass transit. There hasn't been one dime spent by the State in that regard, but they want to drop $400,000,000 to widen I-196 East of downtown.

Second of all, the GR Metro area (and Michigan for that matter) is not growing fast enough to warrant additional lanes of traffic. And the economy is not growing fast enough to warrant additional lanes of traffic to accommodate trucking. Why shoulder the next generation with more highways to maintain, when there will not be any more people? Sorry if you have to slow down for 1/4 mile stretch of highway on your way to work, but move toward the city or closer to your job if you want less traffic to put up with. Don't ask me to pay for your shortened commute time.

[FilmMaker]

Why shoulder the next generation with more highways to maintain, when there will not be any more people?

I keep raising this notion every time someone proposes yet another swath of poorly built, vinyl-sided, unimaginative, taupe colored single family residences in Kent County. What are we going to do with all this vinyl when the population finally fulfills every prediction made over the past ten years? You think housing prices are falling now? Just wait until there are 5 homes for every buyer left in the general population. Kentwood and Gaines Township are going to resemble a ghost town papered in vinyl. It's only hope will be to become the mother of all "regentrification projects" - and somebody will need to find a way to re-bulldoze it all back into open space or farmland. Quite frankly, this is one of the strongest arguments for PDR in my mind.

Then again, once the population shrinks as predicted, traffic will no longer be an issue!

[Phizzy]

Ha, the "build your way out of congestion" principle has been played out all over the country, and has failed miserably. I don't think any of the highways around GR should be widened until some serious State dollars are invested in mass transit. There hasn't been one dime spent by the State in that regard, but they want to drop $400,000,000 to widen I-196 East of downtown.

I agree. It also seems that road construction projects are poorly prioritized. For example, commuters to GR from Sparta, Kent City, and points north have to commute in on crappy M-37, which is especially congested between 3 Mile Rd and 6 Mile Rd. But, on the other hand, there seems to be an abundance of freeways in other areas in the GR Metro.

[GRDadof3]

I keep raising this notion every time someone proposes yet another swath of poorly built, vinyl-sided, unimaginative, taupe colored single family residences in Kent County. What are we going to do with all this vinyl when the population finally fulfills every prediction made over the past ten years? You think housing prices are falling now? Just wait until there are 5 homes for every buyer left in the general population. Kentwood and Gaines Township are going to resemble a ghost town papered in vinyl. It's only hope will be to become the mother of all "regentrification projects" - and somebody will need to find a way to re-bulldoze it all back into open space or farmland. Quite frankly, this is one of the strongest arguments for PDR in my mind.

Then again, once the population shrinks as predicted, traffic will no longer be an issue!

I don't think anyone's predicting a population shrinkage in this area. If anything, the Grand Valley Metro Council is predicting continued population growth. However, it's not in the double digit growth range.

I do agree that the growth patterns are troublesome. I'm not totally convinced that the PDR is the right answer though. My guess is that it will only push people out even further.

[dtown]

I want them to keep the highways the widths they are now, but just fix the damn things, and do a good job. I think that will make everyone happy.