Kansas City Dominating in downtown population

[ShowMeKC]

Downtown Kansas City is growing very rapidly (as you have seen) and we now have about 15,100 people living downtown.

Here are some comparison's from other cities:

*=in a surrounding state (or in)

*Memphis: 22,691

Kansas City: 15,100

*St. Louis: 9,000

Denver: 8,800

Cincinnati: 5,447

*Omaha: 5,240

*Louisville: 3,400

*Nashville: 3,300

Downtown Memphis has 6.5 square miles

Downtown KC has 3.5 square miles

Downtown STL has about 2 square miles

Downtown Denver is from 1-2 square miles

Downtown Density:

Denver: 8,800/4,400

St. Louis: 4,500

Kansas City: 4,314

Memphis: 3,490

Downtown population per unit:

Kansas City: 2.1

St. Louis: 1.5

Downtown employment:

Denver: 110,000+

Kansas City: 100,000+

St. Louis: 97,000+

Cincinnati: 80,000+

Memphis: 80,000+

Downtown Businesses:

Denver: 4,000

Kansas City: 3,000

Cincinnati: 2,300

St. Louis: 1,731

[Allan]

How many people are employed in these downtowns?

[ShowMeKC]

I'll look it up (see the first post)

[M. Brown]

Amazing. Just cuz KC has a large amount of land doesnt mean it cant be dense.

[ShowMeKC]

exactly, we annexed alot of land (313.5 sq miles) plus our metro has over 9,000 square miles (St. Louis even has a little over 9,000)

But we are still a dense city...

Downtown (my estimates) should reach 100k (people) by 2015 or maybe 2020. If we continue growing fast till then.

[Twin Cities]

Those numbers are definitely higher than the numbers I saw for the 2000 estimate.

Cincinnati

Downtown Population

3,824

Downtown Workers

90,000

Denver

Downtown Population

3,735

Downtown Workers

113,000

Kansas City

Downtown Population

3,888

Downtown Workers

50,000

St. Louis

Downtown Population

7,834

Downtown Workers

92,606

[Allan]

Where did you all get these numbers from?

Twin Cities' numbers are much lower (and more like what I would expect) than Devin's.

[ShowMeKC]

They come from the downtown websites, and let me tell you, our downtown population IS NOT 3,000 with only 50,000 workers, haven't you kept up with Kansas City development?

The census probably thinks of different areas as downtown because Kansas City, 3,000 people may live in the loop (more than that now) but downtown stretches from the river to 31st Street and from I35 to Bruce R. Watkins...

Here is an photo to show you some of downtown:

Your telling me that only 3,000 people live in this area:

I'd trust local people/sources alot more than the census, because the census doesn't decide downtown boundaries. In KC our downtown council decided the boundaries.

If you don't believe me look at this:

http://www.downtownkc.org/Housing/January2...ng%20Report.pdf

Weve had 8,000 units proposed since the year 2000 also so your numbers are wrong.

Another, the feds don't have the right to detirmine our downtowns' (as in everyone here) borders so the census cannot be correct.

With the downtown employees, downtownkc.org says we have 90,000 employees, but that doesn't count the proposed IRS and H&R Block HQ's

IRS will bring 6,000 employees ans H&R Block will bring just as many or a little less than that downtown.

[Allan]

Wow.....that huge area is downtown KC? I had no idea it was such a large area!

[Twin Cities]

They come from the downtown websites, and let me tell you, our downtown population IS NOT 3,000 with only 50,000 workers, haven't you kept up with Kansas City development?

The census probably thinks of different areas as downtown because Kansas City, 3,000 people may live in the loop (more than that now) but downtown stretches from the river to 31st Street and from I35 to Bruce R. Watkins...

I'd trust local people/sources alot more than the census, because the census doesn't decide downtown boundaries. In KC our downtown council decided the boundaries.

Calm down. I don't think anyone is arguing with you over this. All I said was that your numbers were much higher than what I've seen. Also, I wouldn't put too much trust in local people/sources due to the fact that they tend to INFLATE or SKEW statistics a lot.

[Allan]

Yeah, anyone who is looking out for their best interest (ie local interests) will tend to skew the numbers in their direction to a certain extent. Which is why the census bureau is the best place to get information most of the time.

[ShowMeKC]

But I guarantee STL's and KC's numbers, the census ( for kansas city) counted only the Downtown Loop which according to it's zip code 64105 has about 3,000 people. But they don't count the rest of downtown.

That is why the feds aren't as reliable in this matter.

But KC and STL statistics are 100% accurate. The feds can't tell us where our downtown borders are. In KC, our downtown council decided and that can't be changed.

I'm being defensive because your information makes KC look like a wuss compared to those other cities, but that is just in an area of 1 square mile in the 3.5 to 4 square miles downtown.

I want to make it clear to you that census estimates or numbers aren't always right. Because they don't live here, and they don't control/run the city. Those are "official" boundaries for downtown.

Denver has about 1 or 2 square miles in it's downtown and St. Louis has only 2 square miles in it's downtown.

[Allan]

I want to make it clear to you that census estimates or numbers aren't always right. Because they don't live here, and they don't control/run the city. Those are "official" boundaries for downtown.

And people from KC are more right than the feds? You believe local numbers over the census? I realize that with all the housing projects, downtown KC has changed a lot in population, but I won't believe anything until I see the next census. I should add that any population data will never be accurate, but the census is the most accurate thing we've got. The census bureau admits to undercounting in Detroit, but it's also over counted in other places. And the local numbers are also inaccurate, as they are just based on studies showing who moves into the types of projects they're building, how many units are being built, etc.

Outside of the CBD & that other dense area in downtown (to the south), a lot of downtown KC appears to be relativily low density. If KC can count that as downtown, why doesn't Detroit make Corktown, Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Midtown, & New Center part of downtown? If we were to go by your definition of downtown, downtown Detroit would have 250,000 employees and probably 45,000 residents.

[mpls]

its best to talk in terms of density: kc defines its downtown as an area twice that of downtown denver, hence it is impossible to have a fair comparison.

[ShowMeKC]

And people from KC are more right than the feds? You believe local numbers over the census?

Yes, because they are blind when it comes to knowing Kansas City

Right now, I can count the number of completed units we have, and the occupied ones and it will come well over 3,000.

Look at that sat. photo, do you think the census uses those boundaries? Do you think only 3,000 people live in 4 square miles? I THINK NOT.

This is zip code 64105 which is a portion of downtown, it has 2,719 people according to the census.

That is zip code 64106 which is also a portion of downtown, it has 6,142 people.

The final part of downtown, zip code 64108 which has 6,785 people.

Which, voila, is a total of 15,646 people.

The downtown council has our downtown at approxomately 15,100 people.

Which number will you trust? The downtown council's 15,100, or the census' 15,646?

[Allan]

its best to talk in terms of density: kc defines its downtown as an area twice that of downtown denver, hence it is impossible to have a fair comparison.

Yep. That's where I was going with my explanation above. I just got sidetracked & never got to my original point, while a rambled on about other stuff. LOL.

So whether the city says downtown is 1 square mile or 100, it does not matter. What matters is the density found within the area. Most of what's found in that pic above does not look dense, & if I were visiting KC, I would not call that "downtown." "Greater Downtown" might be a better term for the area, since that would include the CBD, & the adjacent neighborhoods.

[ShowMeKC]

but you aren't a leader in the city are you?

It is fair, didn't you read this?

Downtown Density:

Kansas City: 4,314/3,775

St. Louis: 4,500

Denver: 8,800/4,400

Who gives a crud what the borders are? Those are the numbers, read em and be satisfied.

[Allan]

Which number will you trust? The downtown council's 15,100, or the census' 15,646?

You expect me to argue over 546 people? That is just ridiculous. The downtown council's number is an estimate based on the number & type of projects, the size of projects, the current demographic trends, and manifold other factors.

[ShowMeKC]

The downtown council's number is an estimate based on the number & type of projects, the size of projects, the current demographic trends, and manifold other factors.

and how do you know that? they know how many people move downtown and almost how many move out. They even sent out surveys to many people who live downtown so that will give them a good idea.

Do you think any of the units downtown (new) will be unnocupied? I think not.

Also, I would trust our city more than the census, the census people don't live here, they don't run the city, they don't know about the projects, they don't know the borders of downtown, they don't know and don't care about our city.

[Allan]

and how do you know that? they know how many people move downtown and almost how many move out. They even sent out surveys to many people who live downtown so that will give them a good idea.

Do you think any of the units downtown (new) will be unnocupied? I think not.

So you're trying to tell me that every single month the downtown development authority or whatever the heck they're called sends out a new mini-census like thing to everyone downtown so they know exactly how many people live downtown? . That is the most insane thing I've ever heard. And they can send out all the surveys they want....no matter what, they will never get them all back. Only a certain percentage will be filled out & returned. That's just how that stuff works. And do I think some of the new units are unoccupied? Of course, it is impossible to have every single brand new project filled to 100% capacity all the time. There will always be a 1-2% (or even lower) vacany rate, even on the newer projects.

[ShowMeKC]

sure maybe 1%, but that's all. the units downtown have been selling like crazy, the Western Auto Building (about 12 floors) sold out in the first week, they moved more to the second building which also sold out, and now they are working on doing a 3rd building nearby, which will probably sell out.

[mpls]

it boils down to definitions of the downtown district.

[ShowMeKC]

which are made official by City Hall (IE Downtown Council)

[Twin Cities]

I'm being defensive because your information makes KC look like a wuss compared to those other cities, but that is just in an area of 1 square mile in the 3.5 to 4 square miles downtown.

I want to make it clear to you that census estimates or numbers aren't always right. Because they don't live here, and they don't control/run the city. Those are "official" boundaries for downtown.

Denver has about 1 or 2 square miles in it's downtown and St. Louis has only 2 square miles in it's downtown.

There is no point in getting defensive because I wasn't trying to prove you wrong or say that your statistics are f*cked. All I said was that your numbers are much different from what I've seen. And don't say that it's my information because it's not. I found it here

http://www.post-gazette.com/businessnews/20001231dstats9.asp so email them. If your offended about the numbers, write someone. Also, you say that census estimates or numbers aren't always right. You're right and neither are local chamber of commerce estimates.

[ShowMeKC]

But this time the census and city hall numbers align perfectly, so it shows the accuracy.