Raleigh Wide Open

[ChiefJoJo]

To Greg Hatem, a developer with his hands in a dozen downtown pots, another turning point came in 2001, when voters picked Meeker for mayor.

Hatem became a strong Meeker ally that year, complaining that then-Mayor Paul Coble had ignored his ideas for redeveloping the former downtown Hudson Belk building, and even chatted with a City Council member during Hatem's presentation.

Meeker campaigned on opening Fayetteville Street to cars and building a bigger convention center with tourist-related money, issues on which Coble was more cost-conscious.

Meeker may not be a huge favorite of many voters and he surely does not have a big ego or command attention, but he needs to get some of the credit for pushing these projects through the city council... starting with Liveable Streets Plan on to Fay St, new RCC, Marriott, Site 1 & 4, RBC, etc. This would have never happened under Fetzer or Coble's watch.

There's still a lot of work to do for the street to become what we want, but we've made more progress in the last 2 years towards that goal than the last 40 or so combined.

[dmccall]

To Greg Hatem, a developer with his hands in a dozen downtown pots, another turning point came in 2001, when voters picked Meeker for mayor.

Hatem became a strong Meeker ally that year, complaining that then-Mayor Paul Coble had ignored his ideas for redeveloping the former downtown Hudson Belk building, and even chatted with a City Council member during Hatem's presentation.

Meeker campaigned on opening Fayetteville Street to cars and building a bigger convention center with tourist-related money, issues on which Coble was more cost-conscious.

Meeker may not be a huge favorite of many voters and he surely does not have a big ego or command attention, but he needs to get some of the credit for pushing these projects through the city council... starting with Liveable Streets Plan on to Fay St, new RCC, Marriott, Site 1 & 4, RBC, etc. This would have never happened under Fetzer or Coble's watch.

There's still a lot of work to do for the street to become what we want, but we've made more progress in the last 2 years towards that goal than the last 40 or so combined.

I agree. I generally am not a big fan, because he isn't quite enough of a cheerleader (we need somebody to keep pounding, as trite as it may sound, the a great city a great community mantra). However, in the Meeker thread I said that by accident or whatever a lot of good things have happened with him as mayor and people like me need to give credit where credit is due. I don't doubt Hatem's version of history either. This is definitely a better time than is was 10 years ago (when oddly enough - our city core virtually sat still during an awesome national economy).

We stood out on F St last night at about 10pm with the sand blowing around looking at what looked like a new ghost town or a new mall development or something. For the last Saturday night, there were no cars or people on Fayetteville St. It was like time freezing or something. Creepy and neat at the same time. Can't wait for next weekend (er - F St that is, not the Willie Nelson concert I have to go to)

[ChiefJoJo]

BTW, the Fayetteville Street party is a perfect opportunity for another forum get-together, don't you all agree?

I know I will be out there... it doesn't have to be anything big... maybe a meet at Times Bar later on in the evening or whatever. I know I'm going to have to check out the food and the beer garden.

I'm open to any ideas on the subject? I've already met Dana and yoga, I'd like to meet some of the other regulars here... Jones, Justin, Tay, Dan, BoylanHts, DTR guy, Transplant, avery, transitman...

[NCMike1981]

What time will the fireworks be? My roomate and I want to head down there if I'm not working....

[Jones_]

BTW, the Fayetteville Street party is a perfect opportunity for another forum get-together, don't you all agree?

I know I will be out there... it doesn't have to be anything big... maybe a meet at Times Bar later on in the evening or whatever. I know I'm going to have to check out the food and the beer garden.

I'm open to any ideas on the subject? I've already met Dana and yoga, I'd like to meet some of the other regulars here... Jones, Justin, Tay, Dan, BoylanHts, DTR guy, Transplant, avery, transitman...

I have walked around downtown proper every weekend for the last couple of months watching the progress on F Street....sometimes I pass others with the same look on their faces I have (amazement at everything going on) or small groups even....do any of you guys just wander aimlessly up and down the streets sometimes?

[Subway Scoundrel]

What time will the fireworks be? My roomate and I want to head down there if I'm not working....

I heard on the news it was at 9:30pm but I would double check if I were you

[dmccall]

6:00 pm Opening Ceremonies at the State Capitol area of Fayetteville Street featuring Mayor Meeker and other dignitaries with a military flyover

6:15 pm Parade down Fayetteville Street and the Block Party begins with street performers, small bands, downtown restaurant booths, etc.

7:00 pm Opening band Tres Chicas on main stage located on the south-end 400 block of Fayetteville Street

8:30 pm Headliner band Royal Crown Revue on main stage

9:30 pm Fireworks

Here is the Raleigh Wide Open official site

[Transplant]

I'm open to any ideas on the subject? I've already met Dana and yoga, I'd like to meet some of the other regulars here... Jones, Justin, Tay, Dan, BoylanHts, DTR guy, Transplant, avery, transitman...

I'd love to, but I'm going on vacation and will miss the party. Take lots of pics!

[ncwebguy]

As long as it isn't raining, I'll be there for most of the festivities. The N&O's stories on the history of the mall have been interesting. Even Ruth "why isn't there a Starbucks on the Christmas Parade route" Sheehan is now a self-proclaimed "avid booster of Raleigh's renaissance." It seems that by 1979, the mall was an admitted failure? Other than money, why did the city not try to fix the mistake? Does anyone know the numbers for sales at the Hudson Belk before, durning, and after the construction of the pedestrian mall? Was there ever a push to get more residences in the CBD in the 70s? Or was that not considered due to the riots in other cities?

What retail opened up as a result of the mall's construction? The hallmark store? Did the drug stores (across from each other on Hargett) already exist or move there? I think there was a Radio Shack where the Capitol Room is now. When did Rainbow Fashions (next to Kimbrells Furniture) open? There was a convenience store in the ground floor of the First Union/Wachovia building in the space Que Pasa now occupies, but that did not front Fayetville Street. Those are the only signs of retail I remember being on Fayetville Street mall, other than the flower shop, barber shop, and Chick Fil A that opened in 1996.

I plan on trying out the full two-way Hargett Street to get home tonight! Things looked pretty good on Fayetville Street itself from Morgan last night, but I only made a quick drive by.

[MR-2]

It is a shame in some ways. Malls of a similar type worked in many other cities. Fayetteville Street was a great looking environment in its mall encarnation. It just turned out to be worse for pedestrians than simply having a road.

[dmccall]

It is a shame in some ways. Malls of a similar type worked in many other cities. Fayetteville Street was a great looking environment in its mall encarnation. It just turned out to be worse for pedestrians than simply having a road.

Vagrants are why it failed. Why did anyone expect someone from north of Peace Street to drive downtown, park, walk two blocks to a store worrying about being attacked when they could safely walk right into the store at Crabtree?? That's not to say that there haven't been incidents at Crabtree, but the perception of safety is more valuable than actual safety. The more people there are just hanging around with nothing to do, the more people and money will stay away.

Unfortunately the bench design in the new F St. does nothing to fix the problem. They should be love seats, not full stretch out and sleep benches. The problem with Fayetteville Street is that nobody in City Hall has had the guts to point out this problem in the last 30 years.

[JDC]

They should be love seats, not full stretch out and sleep benches.

Wouldn't it be funny if there were actual loveseats instead of benches? Now THAT would set F Street apart.

[dwntwnraleigh]

Vagrants are why it failed. Why did anyone expect someone from north of Peace Street to drive downtown, park, walk two blocks to a store worrying about being attacked when they could safely walk right into the store at Crabtree?? That's not to say that there haven't been incidents at Crabtree, but the perception of safety is more valuable than actual safety. The more people there are just hanging around with nothing to do, the more people and money will stay away.

Unfortunately the bench design in the new F St. does nothing to fix the problem. They should be love seats, not full stretch out and sleep benches. The problem with Fayetteville Street is that nobody in City Hall has had the guts to point out this problem in the last 30 years.

I agree with your second point, but I beleive that your first point is actually the syptom of a larger problem - the lack of an ordinance that requires actuve use along the street-level. Without it, property owners are just as likely to lease of office tenants that turn off the lights and lock the door at five PM. In the aggregate, such uses combine to deactivate entire city blocks and make any retail or restuarant uses (outside of lunchtime hours) impossible without public subsidy ( many cities, like Denver, subsidize all of the active uses on pedestrian malls in addition to an active use requirement - that is what makes 16th street successful, not the BRT).

The benches, however, are a laugh. And we've told the city as much. They'll be great cots for the homeless.

[Transplant]

It is a shame in some ways. Malls of a similar type worked in many other cities. Fayetteville Street was a great looking environment in its mall encarnation. It just turned out to be worse for pedestrians than simply having a road.

For me, two things caused F-St Mall's demise:

1) Lack of residential. Without people there after 5, there was nothing to keep the existing stores open.

2) Bad design. The city went too far with those pond-ish things. If they had simply replaced the asphault with coblestone and blocked the road to normal traffic (still allowing for deliveries and parades) I think it could have worked better. Plus, opening it back up would have taken 10 minutes.

Oh well. The new design is nice, the sidewalks are huge... too bad those artistic lights weren't installed.

[ChiefJoJo]

Fayetteville St is going to work. The articles in the N&O this week have been funny paralleling the difference between the mall in '76-'77 and this. Theres really no comparison at all. The thing we always lacked is people... ppl LIVING DT, walking to clubs, bars, restaurants, etc. We will now have that, and it WILL be a success. It is that simple. To me, everything else is secondary. (Honestly, the mall could have worked--we just never had any residential to support it after 5pm. I will say, I'm SO HAPPY that lousy Civic Center is gone forever, and we have our vista again!)

If you have lots of people DT walking around, nobody will care about a few vagrants. In Charlotte along Tryon St, there are hundreds, even thousands of people out each night, and yes there are homeless people too, but the sheer numbers of bar-hoppers, restaurant-goers, and condo-dwellers walking around completely drowns them out.

To me the aura of a DT area is that it offers a sense of place, history, and a feel that North Hills or Crabtree, with it's piped-in musac and EIFS covered walls, will never be able to duplicate. Part of the "feel" is always going to include elements of what it means to live in a real city... street musicians, artwork, clubs, vagrants, noise, etc. Raleigh is trying to become that, and it will be eventually.

[ncwebguy]

The Fetzer "update" of Fayetville Street Mall included installing "arm rests" on all "benches" (painted wood along the mall. Having the "guts" to do this might have been too little too late, as the mall had been dead for years, as the rennovations attracted no new retail. Also, it did not solve the homeless problem, it only moved it to other areas. Will the new benches get a similar treatment in the near future? If there is enoguh people and noise, no one will be able to sleep on benches. To keep the inmates from running the asylum, bars and guards are in place. Downtown could have used both of those during the down times, but was too "southern" (for lack of a better word) to consider bars (restaurants, not steel) and guards (police, ambassadors with homeless shelter information, etc.) as an option. This shift in thinking should lead to The Street's success.

Benches are ok for Capitol Square and the museum areas, but not Fayetville Street. King Street in Charleston does not have a "shiftless vagrant" problem because there are few *public* places to sit!

If there are enough coffee shops and restaurants, everyone who wants to sit can just stop in for a bite and move on. Although Hillsborough Street has few benches but still plenty of people not afraid to ask for money. Sofas that are popping up in the area's malls would not withstand the outdoors, and I hope they don't eat up the abundant sidewalk space with "sofa shelters" to accomodate nicer funiture!

To me, the biggest mistake with the pedestiran mall was the placement of water features that made the walker "pick a side" instead of walking right down the middle. This also eliminated any chance of a trolley service going right through to cycle people from the shops, etc. to their cars in the parking decks. In the same way success attracts more success, failure attracts more failure, which is what happened downtown in the late 70s. I hope the momentum continues in a positive way, but there is no guarantee of that unless people get out and build a sustained presence. Concerts and other programming, which hopefully will continue for the forseeable future, are starting to build this presence. Residents will also contribute.

[dmccall]

Those are great points, y'all. I reread my note and I am far more optimistic than the note conveys. What's neat now is seeing the formerly blaze become excited about downtown proper, not just Glenwood Ave.

[Subway Scoundrel]

For me, two things caused F-St Mall's demise:

1) Lack of residential. Without people there after 5, there was nothing to keep the existing stores open.

2) Bad design. The city went too far with those pond-ish things. If they had simply replaced the asphault with coblestone and blocked the road to normal traffic (still allowing for deliveries and parades) I think it could have worked better. Plus, opening it back up would have taken 10 minutes.

Oh well. The new design is nice, the sidewalks are huge... too bad those artistic lights weren't installed.

I worked a short while many years ago DT and the one thing I thought was bad was in the mornings. People would drive to work and park and walk in the back of buildings never coming in the front door so therefore never stepping foot on Fay St Mall. At lunch, people would go but it was more of hangout. Then at the end of the day, people would exit out the back of the buildings. Some people worked on Fay Street yet only stepping out on the street maybe once or twice a month.

At night people walked around the mall to stay away.

Now, the F Street does not change the fact people park and enter through the back door but I do think if more restaurants and some traffic, people will come and stay and others will come there as a destination. Still has a way to go. I think the place still needs a larger influx of workers such as several large relocations to DT and expecially if they have people coming into town for work.

F Street being open invites more people without having the possibility of being jumped by someone coming out from behind the water fountain or a set of bushes like when the mall was there.

[ChiefJoJo]

N&O article on those who got in early on DT revitalization and how it might pay off.

[ChiefJoJo]

Few good articles on the opening--not sure if they've been posted:

N&O: the vision for the mall

N&O: DT is the place for new corporate relocations

N&O: DT one of the safest districts in the ciy

[urbanvb]

Interesting read especially the last article. Norfolk was 8-5 kind of place as well and afterwards there was really not much going on. Fast forward to today there are many restaurants and the mall. People's perceptions had to change and over time it will for Raleigh also. I doubt many people here no longer view DT Norfolk as a dangerous place to be. As for homeless people and feeling unsafe hopefully it will change as more and more people visit and live DT. Washington DC has a large homeless population but they are dwarfed by the people who walk/live in the city and also by its many visitors.

[Jones_]

Fayetteville St is going to work. The articles in the N&O this week have been funny paralleling the difference between the mall in '76-'77 and this. Theres really no comparison at all. The thing we always lacked is people... ppl LIVING DT, walking to clubs, bars, restaurants, etc. We will now have that, and it WILL be a success. It is that simple. To me, everything else is secondary. (Honestly, the mall could have worked--we just never had any residential to support it after 5pm. I will say, I'm SO HAPPY that lousy Civic Center is gone forever, and we have our vista again!)

If you have lots of people DT walking around, nobody will care about a few vagrants. In Charlotte along Tryon St, there are hundreds, even thousands of people out each night, and yes there are homeless people too, but the sheer numbers of bar-hoppers, restaurant-goers, and condo-dwellers walking around completely drowns them out.

To me the aura of a DT area is that it offers a sense of place, history, and a feel that North Hills or Crabtree, with it's piped-in musac and EIFS covered walls, will never be able to duplicate. Part of the "feel" is always going to include elements of what it means to live in a real city... street musicians, artwork, clubs, vagrants, noise, etc. Raleigh is trying to become that, and it will be eventually.

Agreed....if the Mall had been lined with condo and apartment buildings it would have worked fine....the mantra of the 50's-80's was subdivisions, office parks and shopping malls with downtowns being designated as office parks in most cities.....the other factor, as Dana points out is that our Mall never had any parking on the cross streets or the adjacent streets......imo the presence of civic services such as say the county jail and courthouse make our downtown (and the Mall) difficult when it comes to safety and positive perceptions.....Memorial Auditorium on the other hand is quite an asset....it is difficult to imagine but at the turn of century from Morgan to Davie from Blount to McDowell was a commercial district , that if intact today would rival places like Georgetown for its architecture, both in variety and number of structures...12 solid blocks of 2-4 story Italianiate and Victorian brick commerical buildings that would create a feel and rehabilitated vibe that we can only taste in small portions at places like the Times Bar. Progress II sucks. The Durham Life Building sucks. The Wachovia Building wiped out a section of buildings tha could have housed several used book stores and retro antique stores and small bagel shops...those things that Nancy Horman talks about...I get excited about things like the Reynolds Building too, but damn we could have had it so much better....

[ncwebguy]

Last night I walked Fayetville Street and took some pictures, most of which did not come out well with the limited lighting. There were a few people walking around (including nearby neighbors with their dogs), three officers (two on bike, one on Segway), and one purple shirt ambassador biking. Workers were still cleaning the Morgan/Fayetville Street and Davie/Fayetville intersections with the white concrete. Will those age well or look ugly in six months?

Several benches were installed, perpendicular to the street itself. Several clusters of newspaper boxes (six and six back to back) were scattered along street, near Wachovia, the east side of the 200 block, and Wake County Courthouse. Also by the courthouse, the new steps and handicap ramp was open, which looked confusing but kinda neat too. A lot more modern than the pebblestone building they step up to. Gandalfo's (sp?) deli on the Wilmington side of the Hudson is really close to opening -- the menu sign behind the counter is already full. The Big Easy still neesd some work, but they had some metal fencing and some small tables that are suspended from the side wall. All signs of the former Hardees are gone, and there is a neat 222 in tile on the ground in front of the door.

I only had one beer at Woodys, but there was decent crowds at Cafe Luna, Times Bar (a *lot* of people sitting outside), the Capitol Room, a few people at the Sheraton hotel bar, Woodys (poker tournament and people just hanging out), Zydego, Rum Runners and it's "back room". I had to check several times to make sure it was 10-11 pm on a *Wednesday* night. Two Ts was closed but painting the walls. Did not go by Slim's, Tir Na Nog, and the Pour House, but there seemed to be people going in and out of there as well. There are several people not afraid of going out to Fayetville Street/City Market *now*, before Fayetville Street's grand opening.

[dmccall]

Last night I walked Fayetville Street and took some pictures,...

Sounds like a good report! TWC14 was saying on Monday that we would be able to drive it today. Anyone know if it's open to traffic yet?

I figured they'd have a ceremonial first ride down F St. by Bob DeBardelabin or something like that.

They should open a bar that looks like a fort on that street. They could call it the "A for F-fort"...whatever.

[ChiefJoJo]

Not open yet , at least along the 100 block--couldn't see too far down.