Vandenberg Center/Calder Plaza

[MJLO]

So then dad you would be in favor of say, Privatizing the Plaza?

I'm all for that, maybe privatization would bring much needed maintenance, encourage perhaps new investment, and bring the plaza to life. I wonder though, if out of civic control, would you still be able to use the plaza for public functions? That is a plus to the plaza, the venues, concerts, festivals, and rally's. I just cant stand the buildings, the location, the mediocrity, and the dingy look as of late.

[GRDadof3]

There's probably a happy medium, where much of the plaza is left for public use and maintenance, and the surrounding buildings are privatized.

[Picture Michigan]

I don't know much about art. Could someone explain to me what the "artistic purpose" of the buildings is? Is it to be a plain, black background for the bright orange, very fluid sculpture, or is it more than that? Would it work with a blue facade (like the hotel proposal had?) or does it have to be black? And how does the county building factor in, it's a little off to the side.

I think, after what we've just learned, to say "artistic purpose" is a bit of a reach. As a photographer, I personally think the contrast is appealing. Bright red/orange against the stark black/brown backdrop. The random sweeping lines of the sculpture against the even grid of the buildings. And then, when the State building across the street reflects the sunlight: an added suprise. Nice lines.

This is a good discussion. In my opinion, this is clearly: "it's broke so fix it." But not tear it all down. The plaza (front and back) can be redesigned and become more welcoming. It could almost become part of the convention center if done properly.

I perceive the 5/3 buildings and parking lot to be more a blight than Calder Plaza, and should be the focus of this discussion.

[MJLO]

Well i'm pretty sure part of the way the plaza, is the way it is, has to do with the fact that it sits on an enclosed parking structure. You can really see it from the air. The plaza really looks disproportionate from the air. I'm sure because all the open space has to do with festivals. My personal opinion is that the 350 days a year when it's not being used, it's just a big empty boring space. Proposals for better utilization?

[Rizzo]

Privatizing the place would proably work, but would ruin the spirit of the project and its whole reason. The Calder was given to GR and GR was charged with protecting it for the world interests... I think the buildings should stay in the same ownership.

[MJLO]

yes Rizzman I can see that, but the current owners suck at taking care of them.

[Rizzo]

Quite a quandary; protect the the ideas the plaza represents or give into the wallet. If I was a buisness man I wouldn't touch that place with a 30 foot pole, actually I wouldn't step one foot on the plaza. Now if the circumstance wasn't there and screwing the "H" word and everything that currently exists, I'd dozer that.

[civitas]

Another thing that urban renewal screwed up was the block size. Crescent used to continue west to Monroe and there was a north-south street between Monroe and Ottawa. There was also a north-south street west of the Pantlind Hotel (between Monroe and the river) but I think it stopped at the Civic Auditorium parking lot.

The scale completely changed with the super blocks.

In this photo the Old Kent Building (aka 5/3) is up and the Gas Company (North of OKB), the Hall of Justice, the GR Press and the Union Bank Building (aka NBD, Bank One and Chase) are under construction. The old City Hall and County Buildings are still standing.

The rest of the city has a much more appropriately scaled street grid.

[snoogit]

I'd turn it into a park...

Seriously I'd tear everything down, make a soft hill down to monroe street, have most of it be grass, and trees except for a small part where the calder sits.

If Calder wanted his roof mural to be more public he probably should have put it on the ground, maybe via tiles or colored concrete or whatever, where the Calder is standing, not on a roof where it never is seen.

[GRDadof3]

The rest of the city has a much more appropriately scaled street grid.

Question: After the old City Hall was torn down (where the new Courthouse sits), how long did that lot sit vacant? I remember the space capsule sitting there and a weird one lane street connecting back to Ionia on that lot for as long as I can remember.

[civitas]

Question: After the old City Hall was torn down (where the new Courthouse sits), how long did that lot sit vacant? I remember the space capsule sitting there and a weird one lane street connecting back to Ionia on that lot for as long as I can remember.

The Union Bank Building was built with a parking deck that extended from the south face of the building almost to Lyon. The lower lever surface lot was at the Ottawa elevation and the upper level deck was at the Ionia elevation. The space capsule was in the little park between that parking deck and Lyon.

The County bought the park and condemed a portion of the bank's (DP Fox now owns the building) parking deck to build the new courthouse.

The upper parking deck remains on the east side of the bank building and there is a ramp between the bank and the courthouse that allows access to parking under the bank and Frey buildings..

[GRDadof3]

The Union Bank Building was built with a parking deck that extended from the south face of the building almost to Lyon. The lower lever surface lot was at the Ottawa elevation and the upper level deck was at the Ionia elevation. The space capsule was in the little park between that parking deck and Lyon.

The County bought the park and condemed a portion of the bank's (DP Fox now owns the building) parking deck to build the new courthouse.

The upper parking deck remains on the east side of the bank building and there is a ramp between the bank and the courthouse that allows access to parking under the bank and Frey buildings..

I can maybe see tearing down the old City Hall for another greater building, but for a parking ramp? That's absurd!

[dbrok]

Man, losing both the city hall and courthouse sucked.

[Rizzo]

Thats the thing with this mess, it really screwed with block size. I think in the olden days the N/S street was Kent and the E/W street was Bronson per the map I have in front of me.

Thats a great pic civitas, lets you get a feel for Campau and Lyon's idea of their own Grand Rapids.

[MJLO]

holy crap how the city has changed since those photo's were taken.

[civitas]

I can maybe see tearing down the old City Hall for another greater building, but for a parking ramp? That's absurd!

Here's a good shot of the surface parking and deck. You can see the space capsule too.

[GRDadof3]

Here's a good shot of the surface parking and deck. You can see the space capsule too.

Whoever perpetrated that sham (tearing down City Hall for a parking lot) should be drawn-n-quartered at Calder Plaza for all to see. Bring back public hangings?

[MJLO]

from that shot, a building would go nicely at the old kent parking lot.

[civitas]

Whoever perpetrated that sham (tearing down City Hall for a parking lot) should be drawn-n-quartered at Calder Plaza for all to see. Bring back public hangings?

What is even more frustrating is the fact that the new courthouse eliminated x-number of those parking spaces with apparantly no impact on the bank building (ie. the old courthouse could have stayed and no one would have suffered).

[GRDadof3]

from that shot, a building would go nicely at the old kent parking lot.

It is quite a massive footprint MJLO. I thought this photo was relevant to this discussion:

[grcitydog]

I don't have any pictures, but the Plaza, as related to festival usage could take a lesson from the new (withing the last several years) fesival space in Kalamazoo. Instead of a large open concrete slab with a couple of non-descript buildings sticking up out of it, they have more of a park atmosphere with water features, flowers, trees, benches, a small amphitheater; in other words, a more people friendly space. I don't see why that sort of thing wouldn't work here, at least to some degree.

[Allison Slater]

As much as the red scupluture against boring buildings is an artistic view, I also think the same red sculpture against green foliage would be just as artistic, while also providing a more friendly atmosphere as citydog has said.

[eagle]

Those pictures of the new clocktower remind me of something. Has anyone been to the John Ball Park parking lot that's right across from the Coke Plant? There's a pile of beautiful, ornate, stone decorations that look exactly like the stone decorations that used to surround the city hall and now surround the clock tower.

Is it possible that they dumped the extra in the park ? It was there all last year and I'm assuming it's still there.

[markrumsey]

I'll agree to that, I think there can be some redevelopement done, to make the plaza more pedestrian friendly. What if, The city and county were to relocate, and someone were to privatize those buildings. I think Private offices fronted by retail would be a much better suit. Private companies would do more for beautification and up keep.

Why couldn't the city or county lease out the ground floors to retailers? It could be an additional source of income. Also, another piece of the puzzle is the underground parking, they city derives a good chunk of annual income from this site.

[Khorasaurus]

Why couldn't the city or county lease out the ground floors to retailers? It could be an additional source of income. Also, another piece of the puzzle is the underground parking, they city derives a good chunk of annual income from this site.

Why couldn't the city just continue to run the parking garage? It runs other lots and garages that aren't on the site of city hall.