Vandenberg Center/Calder Plaza

[Greedo]

No we don't save everything, only that which is significant.

The Towers was a failed "complex" that never really developed. The building isn't tied to anything significant and is being developed into something better.

Same holds true with structures like the Federal Building, Frey and Chase Bldgs, there's nothing particularly special about them.

But City Hall has one of the most important pieces of public art in the United States permanantly attached to it. Not to mention a rooftop mural by Calder on the Kent Co. Bldg. These three pieces are meant to coexist.

So I say redevelop around the property, but let's preserve what makes Grand Rapids distinct.

[Rizzo]

I'm sold on the idea of development around the Calder plaza But is the Calder "one of the most important pieces of public art in the United States" ?

[mpchicago]

I'm sold on the idea of development around the Calder plaza But is the Calder "one of the most important pieces of public art in the United States" ?

Considered one of Calder

[MJLO]

I'll agree to that, I think there can be some redevelopement done, to make the plaza more pedestrian friendly. What if, The city and county were to relocate, and someone were to privatize those buildings. I think Private offices fronted by retail would be a much better suit. Private companies would do more for beautification and up keep.

[AlexPKeaton]

Fixing that wall on Monroe, replacing the Federal Building, and building something good on the 5/3 lot would do wonders for that area without needing to tear down the City and County buildings. There is a nice middle ground here.

The buildings accross the street aren't all that nice either. I'm still pissed at how the new courthouse turned out. At least the buildings fromt the 70's are from a time when we didn't know any better. The courthouse is new construction, and it's ugly as hell!

-nb

[Veloise]

...

But City Hall has one of the most important pieces of public art in the United States permanantly attached to it. Not to mention a rooftop mural by Calder on the Kent Co. Bldg. These three pieces are meant to coexist.

...

I wouldn't refer to more than 100' of open space as "permanently attached."

Bet most people in town have never seen the county-top mural.

[GRDadof3]

Considered one of Calder

[Rizzo]

What would be nice is to have all the banks and state/federal consolidated into one building. I'm not saying it could happen, but it would free up a good portion of land to play with.

[snoogit]

I was actually referring to One Illinois Center, just East of Michigan Avenue. One of the first large-scale office building complexes in Chicago. But the one by you Mark is great too. I don't have a picture unfortunately.

I like the Courthouse personally. Considering what it's function is, and that you can't have all windows in courtrooms, I think it turned out pretty well.

Frey's references to the Calder Plaza and a performing arts center should be a big DING DING DING for everyone, considering Grand Action will most likely spearhead any fund drive for such a venture.

The Gainey(lol) PAC at Calder Plaza? that should put ($) ($) in anyone's eyes. What would also be great is to have redo Calder's county mural on the roof of said PAC. of course with a new PAC.

[GRDadof3]

The Gainey(lol) PAC at Calder Plaza? that should put ($) ($) in anyone's eyes. What would also be great is to have redo Calder's county mural on the roof of said PAC. of course with a new PAC.

I wonder if we're not the only ones with our eyes on the 5/3 lot. A Performing Arts Center could be built at the South end of Calder Plaza and into the 5/3 lot.

The large treed planters at the bottom of this aerial make that area look smaller than it really is:

Make it more intimate, like Lincoln Center in NY

I think you guys would like that.

[AlexPKeaton]

The thing that annoys me the most about the courthouse is that it's not flush with the street. Instead they put a little island of grass in there that doesn't even look good. It just looks cheap. The windows are nice, but there are huge blank areas as well. The entrance doesn't look very "grand" and roof line doesn't do anything for me either. I guess it was just a huge let down because at first I thought that was the Lyon & Ottawa Tower going up. That was before I found UP, of course.

-nb

[Greedo]

Frey's references to the Calder Plaza and a performing arts center should be a big DING DING DING for everyone, considering Grand Action will most likely spearhead any fund drive for such a venture.

As long as influential donors like Nancy Mulnix, Mary Ann Keeler and Fred Meijer are still kicking, and arts opinion leaders like Celeste Adams and Joe Becherer are around, Frey will face stiff opposition to any changes with Calder Plaza.

I'd rather he convince the Feds to move and 5/3 to give up their crappy parking lot.

Separately, just did some fumbling around the Internets and found an NEA 40th anniversary site which includes a great, concise article on the Calder installation.

Couple images too, including this one, which is almost too weird.

[GRDadof3]

As long as influential donors like Nancy Mulnix, Mary Ann Keeler and Fred Meijer are still kicking, and arts opinion leaders like Celeste Adams and Joe Becherer are around, Frey will face stiff opposition to any changes with Calder Plaza.

I'd rather he convince the Feds to move and 5/3 to give up their crappy parking lot.

Separately, just did some fumbling around the Internets and found an NEA 40th anniversary site which includes a great, concise article on the Calder installation.

Couple images too, including this one, which is almost too weird.

Very weird, considering they tore down the old Couthouse (shown in that picture), and then didn't that lot sit empty for about 30 years or more, before the current Courthouse was built?

Greedo, I wasn't suggesting changing Calder Plaza, but putting the PAC on the 5/3 lot or at the Federal Courthouse site (although highly unlikely since we haven't heard that it will be replaced anytime soon), and then have it face Calder Plaza as another "piece" of the plaza. Considering its proximity to Devos Hall, the convention center, and the Amway Grand, the 5/3 lot sounds more and more a likely candidate, IMM.

[destijl]

Very weird, considering they tore down the old Couthouse (shown in that picture), and then didn't that lot sit empty for about 30 years or more, before the current Courthouse was built?

Greedo, I wasn't suggesting changing Calder Plaza, but putting the PAC on the 5/3 lot or at the Federal Courthouse site (although highly unlikely since we haven't heard that it will be replaced anytime soon), and then have it face Calder Plaza as another "piece" of the plaza. Considering its proximity to Devos Hall, the convention center, and the Amway Grand, the 5/3 lot sounds more and more a likely candidate, IMM.

I believe that is the old City Hall beneath the Calder (not the courthouse).

[GRDadof3]

I believe that is the old City Hall beneath the Calder (not the courthouse).

Oh, I think you're right.

[destijl]

Oh, I think you're right.

I have seen many similar photos taken by preservationists at about that same time, since the old City Hall was already slated for demolition at the time the Calder was installed.

[JackBBV]

I haven't been able to post for a while regarding our projects - like to tell you why but not on-line. But I want to speak up about the City & County Buildings.

On the project we proposed for Vandenberg Center we hired the architect Richard Keating, a former principal with SOM who is very familiar (by direct knowledge) with the real history and design of those buildings (including Calder's involvement). It's a very long explanation (and one that he shared with us and some of our opponents on that project) but I think if you knew the real design history of those buildings it would diminish the "significance" point of view.

I'm not trying to make a case to take the buildings down - but they certainly aren't being preserved through the care (or lack of) that they are receiving now. If there is a real desire to save them then the "status quo" approach to doing nothing isn't going to accomplish keeping them up much longer.

Again, I'm not trying to stir things up on those buildings, but you should be informed on the real issues and history of those buildings before you make a case for their preservation. The inefficiancy of City Hall is unlike any other building any of us had ever seen before (it burns money both is terms of operating cost and more so in it's incredible poor design). I could eat up this whole post with the issues of City Hall and I would love the opportunity to tell you what we learned about it - but it would take for ever to do it. Bottomline - regardless of whether you care about it's history or care about the money being spent on it (and the many millions more to follow) you should be arguing for something to be done there.

Believe it or not I would like to see City Hall truely preserved - through renovation and reuse by someone who can and will take care of it. Forcing the City to stay there (which some believe is a way to insure the building stays) actually puts the building in greater jeopardy.

MJLO: Our project was not hindered due to financing or any other economic issues. We had provided a bank commitment letter to the City to show we could secure financing. That was their spin but it wasn't accurate. Hopefully most people in the area recognize that if you mention the "H" word in a development project in the core city or you're viewed as competition to certain interests - then the project isn't going to happen. Many projects have been shut down for reasons the public never gets the benefit of factually knowing.

[Rizzo]

Thank you for the response Jack.

[MJLO]

Thanks for clarifying that up for me Jack. I wasn't sure, perhaps it was just the spin I had heard via John Logie. I am not a fan of those buildings, or preserving Vandenburg Center in it's current state. I think my positions are well known. I also want to know if anything could be done, in regards to special interests, that dodge competition when the H word gets involved. I found it a little odd and political when the HPC didn't get involved when a certain ornate building was torn down last summer.

[Greedo]

Indeed, thank you Jack for the feedback. I've never heard the story from the SOM principles, only those who sat on the steering commitee to install the sculpture or our local art historians.

From that perspective, I only understand what the area has become, what it represents to the city--specifically the artistic conversation that those two buildings (however insignificant architecturally) have with the sculpture in front of them.

If the buildings are inefficient, then they should be rehabbed into shape. Nothing gets me more upset than government waste.

[Khorasaurus]

From that perspective, I only understand what the area has become, what it represents to the city--specifically the artistic conversation that those two buildings (however insignificant architecturally) have with the sculpture in front of them.

I don't know much about art. Could someone explain to me what the "artistic purpose" of the buildings is? Is it to be a plain, black background for the bright orange, very fluid sculpture, or is it more than that? Would it work with a blue facade (like the hotel proposal had?) or does it have to be black? And how does the county building factor in, it's a little off to the side.

[MJLO]

yes i've not gotten that either, I've still not been totally sold on the architectural siginificance of the buildings. Other than perhaps they were designed by SOM, (who apparently thinks they are junk). They are also in desrepair. Why the nostalgia?

[gvsusean]

wait.... the architects think that they are junk?????? If so, how can we keep a baby a mother doesn't even love?

[AlexPKeaton]

A lot of what SOM has done and continues to do is junk. Why are they so highly regarded again? Regardless, I'd still like to see those buildings preserved AND the plaza improved.

From what I recall, and I'm obviously not the most in-the-know person here, is that the JW Marriott wasn't announced until after the Vandenberg Plaza idea was in public. The timing did look rather suspicious to me, and I figured with a competing hotel the Vandenberg Plaza one would die. Although I didn't exactly care for the proposal, if it involved the Federal building instead I would have been all for it.

-nb

[GRDadof3]

I think you guys are reading into this, thinking the architect thought they were "junk". Of course, the architect probably doesn't think they are significant, probably like he thinks Grand Rapids is insignificant. Like Vinoly probably feels the same way about Van Andel Institute ("eh, just another one of my pieces, not my favorite"). Like Maya Lin feels about Rosa Parks Circle ("I designed a plaza where? In the name of who?). Give me a break.

Their significance has really nothing to do with SOM (they have the nickname Three Blind Mies for Chrise' sake). Their significance is most likely more locally influenced.

And I'm all for kicking out the City and County and cleaning up those POS's. They look horrible.