Vandenberg Center/Calder Plaza

[civitas]

Today was so nice that these ladies actually sat on Vandenberg Plaza.

[Rizzo]

Person I know works in the City bldg. and says hardly anyone like to eat on the plaza because they think everyone's watching from the windows above. Privacy walls anyone, anymore walls needed?

Civitas, I like the reflection of the bright Calder in the windows, very nice.

[GRDadof3]

Plus, it's just blinding out there with all that concrete and no foliage to absorb the sunlight and heat. I usually see a few people out there when we go to the tire swing, but not very many.

[civitas]

Plus, it's just blinding out there with all that concrete and no foliage to absorb the sunlight and heat. I usually see a few people out there when we go to the tire swing, but not very many.

The scale of that space has always been wrong. It is an outdoor room that is defined by the buildings around it. Unfortunately the buildings are too small relative to the size of the space (and it is open to the east).

Compare Calder Plaza to the interior court at the GVSU business school. At GVSU I have a similar sense of being in the open when standing near the fountain by Fulton as I do near Ottawa on Calder Plaza. You are open to the street and there is little sense of enclosure.

Inside the court, however, you feel much different. There are many factors that impact the emotion, but I doubt that people looking down on you is one of them. It is simply a nicer place to be because of scale, landscaping, building height, outdoor furniture, etc. Calder Plaza is brutal by comparison.

[wolverine]

Very good observation rizzo. This is one of the reasons architects try to avoid placing very large open, barren plazas near their buildings, because people will only gather there if there are other people, or some sort of shelter where they won't be noticed. The only succesful thing about them is they provide a place to pass through. There's a whole bunch of interesting articles and essays that talk all about these spaces.

The GVSU one is way better in that it's a bit more broken up by the lawn, and as civitas said, the scale is much better with the surrounding buildings.

[Rizzo]

Very good observation rizzo. This is one of the reasons architects try to avoid placing very large open, barren plazas near their buildings, because people will only gather there if there are other people, or some sort of shelter where they won't be noticed. The only succesful thing about them is they provide a place to pass through. There's a whole bunch of interesting articles and essays that talk all about these spaces.

The GVSU one is way better in that it's a bit more broken up by the lawn, and as civitas said, the scale is much better with the surrounding buildings.

In that context wouldn't the space around The Calder provide a type of personal space and distract from the barrenness? It breaks up the space and creates a partition giving opportunity for obstructed views providing a greater sense of a place to hide. The artwork seems to offer the plaza a private gathering place yet also leaving the plaza with a kind of breath-ability due to its organic design allowing for people to walk around and under.

I was down there on Wednesday feeling as if it was a wall creating some kind of space a user could feel private. I felt like my personal space was intact around 20 feet away and as I was walked out farther it felt increasingly lost. As I approached the perimeter bounded by hedges and various greenery, the City and County buildings it returned again. This might at first feel unconformable to a person, but with a while of being there it makes sense and provides for an unusual experience.

It seems to me that in the 60s people thought this concept was justifiable because the huge artwork was the center piece and the wide open space was to create a sense of canvas so the Calder could stand out, as if it didn't already with the color choice, size and scalability.

The Calder is friggin' huge and pretty cool.

[MJLO]

I don't think the Calder Plaza, could ever provide a "personal" space. The sculpture itself is somewhat interesting. But the buildings are characterless and cold. The energy of the plaza is all fragemented. When I want personal space, I go to the park at the ford museum ( i'm just going to call it that instead of slaughtering it with trying to spell it.) Actually my favorite spot to read and think, is by the Van Andel Museum in the grass, right before those curvy stairs that go up to the Eberhard Center.

[Rizzo]

I'm assuming thats the point of The Plaza and buildings, to be "characterless and cold." It lets The Calder stand out even more.

[civitas]

It seems to me that in the 60s people thought this concept was justifiable because the huge artwork was the center piece and the wide open space was to create a sense of canvas so the Calder could stand out, as if it didn't already with the color choice, size and scalability.The Calder is friggin' huge and pretty cool. [/quote

The modernist architect placed his buildings (sculptures) on large, raised, empty plazas (pedestals). Calder Plaza is primarily all about the city/county buildings. Secondarily it is a public plaza. The Calder is very nice, but to the modern architect it is simply an accessory, a decoration, for the building. Calder Plaza is exactly what it was intended to be. The only time people say they like the plaza is during festivals when it is covered with people and tents. They only like it when it is hidden.

The traditionalist architect, however, understands the importance of the public realm (streets, plazas, parks, etc.) and uses his buildings to enhance the quality of public space. The European plazas that date back centuries understand public space. BTW, many people say that GVSU downtown has a European feel.

There is no question that architecture is an art, but urban architecture also demands a civic responsibility. Architects who think that their buildings are more important than the public realm that surrounds them should not be allowed to practice in urban areas. They will get it wrong every time.

[Rizzo]

My problem is when you walk North to the Plaza and surrounding buildings the scale of the grid isn't great. It's almost as if the City was built around this plot of land and was left as a park then dozed over to make way for the buildings that are there now.

[MJLO]

In all my years of living in GR, i've never just gone to the plaza. In all my years of being obsessed with and spending all my time in downtown. The only times I have ever gone to Vandenburg Center is if I was paid to, or I wanted a taco during a festival. Oh yeah, and I was there when John Kerry spoke, that was cool. But I could give a crap less about a big orange hunk of metal. I know i'm letting my class and sophisotcation shine thru. But a concrete slab, a bunch of twisted orange steel with rivets, and two ugly ass buildings are not very inviting. I did all my thinking elsewhere.

[civitas]

My problem is when you walk North to the Plaza and surrounding buildings the scale of the grid is way out of scale. It's almost as if the City was built around this plot of land and was left as a park then dozed over to make way for the buildings that are there now.

The VandenBerg Plaza (Michigan to Lyon and Monroe to Ottawa) was 4 blocks before urban renewal turn it into one block.

[Rizzo]

I did this a while back to demonstrate how the grid would look:

You have Kent N-S and Bronson W-E cutting right to Crescent.

Never mind the massings they don't represent my views of redevelopment...

[numstead]

It sounds to me like you folks understand the difference in scale and character between Vandenberg Plaza and the courtyard at GVSU. Congrats. But it doesn't sound like you understand function.

Vandenberg Plaza is large in scale because it serves as a civic gathering place for festivals, demonstrations, and rallies. The courtyard at GVSU is a private setting for classes to have small group discussions and for students to each lunch or throw a frisbee around. Of course you're not going to pack a picnic and sit by the Calder, just as you're not going to march 20,000 immigrant workers through the university.

Form follows Function

[Allison Slater]

I have to admit that at least in the past 5 years, I've never even seen the Calder. (And I do drive around town randomly every few months.. never seem to pass it) I do admit the Calder sculpture is nice from the pictures, but the plaza itself has given me no reason to go there.

Actually, what would be cool.. from that aerial shot it looked as though there were some empty spaces between buildings... What if between the buildings the city built some resturaunt/shops for each of the sister cities.. providing a look into what the sister cities are like, offering meals from said areas, and various items for the area. That would bring people into the area in general, and then bring them out into the plaza to eat their Lasagna, Sushi, etc. The plaza would continue to serve its original purpose of being a city center, whilst also giving people a reason to be in the plaza throughout the rest of the summer.

[Nitro]

I have to admit that at least in the past 5 years, I've never even seen the Calder. (And I do drive around town randomly every few months.. never seem to pass it) I do admit the Calder sculpture is nice from the pictures, but the plaza itself has given me no reason to go there.

Sounds like you need to get down to Festival. It's coming in two weeks. Be there or be square.

[civitas]

It sounds to me like you folks understand the difference in scale and character between Vandenberg Plaza and the courtyard at GVSU. Congrats. But it doesn't sound like you understand function.

Vandenberg Plaza is large in scale because it serves as a civic gathering place for festivals, demonstrations, and rallies. The courtyard at GVSU is a private setting for classes to have small group discussions and for students to each lunch or throw a frisbee around. Of course you're not going to pack a picnic and sit by the Calder, just as you're not going to march 20,000 immigrant workers through the university.

Form follows Function

I do appreciate your point about function, but I believe the space could accommodate a wide range of activity without being so brutally harsh.

Function is, in fact, exactly what I'm talking about. The design "function" of Calder Plaza is to showcase two modern structures. Everything else is a compromise. Many of the festivals have outgrown Calder Plaza and the biggest has always closed Ottawa from Michigan to Monroe to create sufficient space. It really doesn't work for most activities that want to be there and especially for the day-to-day stuff.

Rosa Park Circle, on the other hand, is comfortably used by people eating their lunches at noon and then at night one block of Monroe Center is closed and 7,000 people enjoy Blues on the Mall. It is designed to be flexible and is attractive to big and small groups.

BTW, I went to college in the late 60's and we could march 20,000 people through any campus in the country. Civic demonstrations do need a place and city hall is an appropriate place, but you shouldn't custom design public spaces for an activity that happens a few times a year. When 20,000 of us had something to say to MSU about the Viet Nam war we closed Grand River Avenue and moved in for a few days. Ah, I love the smell of tear gas in the morning....

[Veloise]

Very good observation rizzo. This is one of the reasons architects try to avoid placing very large open, barren plazas near their buildings, because people will only gather there if there are other people, or some sort of shelter where they won't be noticed. The only succesful thing about them is they provide a place to pass through. There's a whole bunch of interesting articles and essays that talk all about these spaces.

The GVSU one is way better in that it's a bit more broken up by the lawn, and as civitas said, the scale is much better with the surrounding buildings.

Wolverine, could you find and upload a pic of the Diag for us?

TIA

[civitas]

Rosa Parks Circle uses birches to define the space. They allow views in and out, but are effective as an edge.

The grassy mounds soften the space while allowing overflow area for large crowds when necessary.

Even larger crowds could be accommodated on the adjacent streets.

Most of the time the space is used by smaller groups or individuals (as is the case today).

Come downtown, there's plenty of room for more.

[GRDadof3]

civitas, we probably keep walking right by each other.

[civitas]

civitas, we probably keep walking right by each other.

It looks that way. I'll let you know if I'm ever in one of your photos.

[Allison Slater]

Sounds like you need to get down to Festival. It's coming in two weeks. Be there or be square.

Hmm I'll likely be DJ'ing at a friend's store for his grand opening in 2 weeks... when Exactly is the festival?

[Veloise]

...

Most of the time the space is used by smaller groups or individuals (as is the case today).

Come downtown, there's plenty of room for more.

Civitas, if you'd looked over towards Olive and the Friends I'd have waved back. Were you there when the Critical Mass on stunt bikes rolled through?

[Nitro]

Hmm I'll likely be DJ'ing at a friend's store for his grand opening in 2 weeks... when Exactly is the festival?

Feb. 2nd through the 4th.

[civitas]

Civitas, if you'd looked over towards Olive and the Friends I'd have waved back. Were you there when the Critical Mass on stunt bikes rolled through?

I missed the bikes. I did walk past 4 Friends though. We're you sitting on the bench behind the last car in this photo?