Signature Tower out of Place?

[DruidCity]

First of all, Signature Tower looks like a great addition to me.

Move to Memphis and Birmingham where blacks are still making 75% of what whites are.

That was a strange, inappropriate comment, especially considering the percentage in Nashville :

http://www.city-data.com/housing/houses-Na...-Tennessee.html

Median household income in 1999 for:

White non-Hispanic householders: $43,185

Black householders: $29,525

[tistic]

Hey Tistic, I appreciate your response but I think it's totally off base. My points do not concern resentment of wealth, they concern a misplacement of priorities and an immature need to show off ones wealth with flashy things. I think Sig Tower is a monstrously immature and childish display of vanity for the developer and for anyone who lives, let's say, above the 40th floor. I mean, just watch the video. You're right, though. I certainly can't relate to it, nor do I ever want to.

Nashvillain--

I've met lots of public figures, and many of them seem to have a big ego or a vanity problem. But IMO Tony Giarratana is not at all like that--Tony is refreshingly humble for someone of his public prominence and influence. Tony is hardly an immature or childish person; quite to the contrary, having interacted with him on several occasions he strikes me as exactly the sort of quality person anyone should want as a friend.

And while it may be politically correct to bash the wealthy or anyone above the 40th floor , let me commend a book to everyone. The Millionaire Mind by Dr. Tom Stanley (Professor of Economics, UGA) is an amazing window onto the character traits and habits of wealthy people. The book is based on sophisticated survey research and extensive personal interviews about why many men and women became their family's first generation to earn a net worth of a million dollars or more.

If you're like me, you'll find some very surprising things in the book you may not expect, or that you may not (yet) see in your own life. But you'll probably also see a lot of things in it that are personally familiar to you, things that validate your own choices and ways of thinking--many of which have no direct relationship to how much money one may earn.

You may just realize that the people who are financially independent and who are the most economically productive among us are very much worth relating to.

[nashscan]

And while it may be politically correct to bash the wealthy or anyone above the 40th floor , let me commend a book to everyone. The Millionaire Mind by Dr. Tom Stanley (Professor of Economics, UGA) is an amazing window onto the character traits and habits of wealthy people.

Hear Hear! Tistic is right on the money, no pun intended. Wealthy people are very different than people who act wealthy. Most multi-millionares don't sit around with their noses in the air while eating caviar. Most multi-millionares are hard working and socially average. They drive used cars and live below their means.

[rocky top buzz]

Those of you who have read my posts before realize that I am with all of you on capitalism and free market. However, I also think I see where Nashvillian is coming from. We have had posts discussing conservation overlays, and I think that is more what Nashvillian is talking about. If you won't allow a new 5,000 square foot Brick home to be built in Sylvan Park, why allow a 65 story tower amongst 30 story towers?

Again, I am all in favor of property owners rights and the benefits of such, but this does deserve discussion amongst you who are fans of conservation overlays

[Guest]

To all -

The "do not build a skyscraper" record gets old sometimes. Not in Sobro not in Midtown and now heaven forbid not even in the CBD?!?!?!

Now you never hear any of the skyscraper proponets saying please not another 5 story brick building or why rehab that old building for lofts when you can build a new skyscraper. I for one welcome a very diverse mix of developments.

One can always find a reason not to change and grow as a city but it takes true visionaries like Tony G and others risk fortune and fame to help Nashville reach its awesome potential.

Bottomline to me is that while I may not shop in the same boutiques as the Signature residents their presence on the streets and their median income numbers WILL change the retail model for d'town and bring in more retail. For those in the know retailers have a herd mentality, where one opens others are sure to follow.

[NewTowner]

To all -

The "do not build a skyscraper" record gets old sometimes. Not in Sobro not in Midtown and now heaven forbid not even in the CBD?!?!?!

Now you never hear any of the skyscraper proponets saying please not another 5 story brick building or why rehab that old building for lofts when you can build a new skyscraper. I for one welcome a very diverse mix of developments.

One can always find a reason not to change and grow as a city but it takes true visionaries like Tony G and others risk fortune and fame to help Nashville reach its awesome potential.

Bottomline to me is that while I may not shop in the same boutiques as the Signature residents their presence on the streets and their median income numbers WILL change the retail model for d'town and bring in more retail. For those in the know retailers have a herd mentality, where one opens others are sure to follow.

Well, I hate to repeat this record, NB, but I think for your own sake you should get used to the idea that a great many people--particularly urban design professionals--do not equate the erection of skyscrapers with "growth" in any positive sense, and do not believe a vision based merely on height will ever fashion a place worthy of affection and respect.

I know that you, for one, do not base your vision merely on height...you celebrate the fact that the Signature Tower residents will change the pace to which Nashville's streets throb. I agree with you on this, completely. And honestly, downtown Nashville is currently so zombie-like that I feel a flutter in my own heart for the big ol' SIG T (Hooty Hoo!). I do not personally share the borderline-Marxist conviction that rich people shouldn't buy apartments downtown en masse (and honestly find assertions to this point dumbfounding). But please, Nashville_Bound (and every other skyscraper fan, for that matter):

Realize that many people here on Urban Planet and elsewhere feel that skyscrapers, no matter how much you love them, possess a serious downside, for all of their ups. I won't risk antagonizing more accusations of preachy snobbery by actually going into them here. But the table is big enough for everyone, for real, and ya'll need to lighten up on the pro-Nashville, pro-"growth", pro-architecture, pro-development, pro-change, anti-skyscraper crowd.

We are...*sniffle*...people too.

[Guest]

I agree I would be cast out of the American Planning Association if I were a member but they have much too fine a palate for my taste.

As you know NT these are the same professionals that decimated our cities and created the suburban utopias in the 50's and 60's. Now the pendulum has over corrected in my estimation and anything over 5 stories is abysmal and the 'burbs are purgatory. A little balance please urban planners.

[NewTowner]

I agree I would be cast out of the American Planning Association if I were a member but they have much too fine a palate for my taste.

As you know NT these are the same professionals that decimated our cities and created the suburban utopias in the 50's and 60's. Now the pendulum has over corrected in my estimation and anything over 5 stories is abysmal and the 'burbs are purgatory. A little balance please urban planners.

Whoa. This would require a whole new thread to answer reasonably. I won't try here.

All I am asking, Nashville_Bound, is that you show a little more kindness and openness to people who disagree that the skyscraper is an ideal, or even acceptable, object of civic ambition. We are not just naysayers--there are reasons we believe the things we do, and it hurts feelings and ruins conversations when we are emotionally poo-pooed for prefering low-to-mid-rise buildings--with the only articulate reason given that we are speaking in "nerdy braniac" terms which bore and confuse people. That might be a good reason to ask for clarification or buy a dictionary, but it is not a good enough reason to shut people down.

I do not personally believe that the Central Business District should be closed to high-rise buildings, because of freedom and precedent and a few other things. I do believe, however, that SoBro and the Gulch need tighter controls. That doesn't mean my opinions should be law, but nor does it mean that they should be automatically disqualified by you or those who agree with your "tall affections."

Despite common accusations otherwise, I don't believe for a second that people need a degree to form an educated and valid opinion about architecture and/or urbanism. I respect and love the citizen-soldier lay interest catered to and encouraged by sites like Urban Planet. I am afraid that if there is any elitism on this site, it is not displayed by the "planning professionals" (??)...rather, it is displayed by the anti-academy techno-fans who resent a dissenting word--particularly when it can be backed up with facts and precedent framed in the post-and-lintel language of architecture and urban design.

I am "Low" and Proud. Deal with it. I respect you, and hope we can return to a civil a meaningful dialogue.

[Guest]

NT

I swear there must be more that one poster using your account because every so often reading one of your posts reminds me of being forced to sit through the "3 Faces of eve" movie back in middle school...I left the class thinking what the F*** was that all about!

Not sure if you were replying to my post or to a compiliation of historical posts or just having a bad day but there is no way a rational person could feel slighted or disrespected by my previous post?!?

To restate: I LOVE most quality buldings tall, short, fat, slim, modern, classical, whatever...I think Nashville needs a good mix of all of them. I think it is GREAT that others disagree with me and I do not take any offense.

Not sure if that was civil or meaningful but that was the intent.

[Hankster]

NT

I swear there must be more that one poster using your account because every so often reading one of your posts reminds me of being forced to sit through the "3 Faces of eve" movie back in middle school...I left the class thinking what the F*** was that all about!

Not sure if you were replying to my post or to a compiliation of historical posts or just having a bad day but there is no way a rational person could feel slighted or disrespected by my previous post?!?

To restate: I LOVE most quality buldings tall, short, fat, slim, modern, classical, whatever...I think Nashville needs a good mix of all of them. I think it is GREAT that others disagree with me and I do not take any offense.

Not sure if that was civil or meaningful but that was the intent.

If it makes you feel any better, I understand exactly where you are coming from, and I believe that most people have similar feelings. At least I know I do. I love well designed low and midrise buildings, and surely many of you realize by now, I love skyscrapers too. Personally, I love having the whole gamut of building types. It makes my heart soar to see the diversity. I don't really like the look of Washington DC, for example. The fact that so many of the buildings are pretty much the same height is boring to me. Individually, most of the buildings in DC are spectacular, but there is a certain monotomy about it that I don't like.

[NewTowner]

Not sure if you were replying to my post or to a compiliation of historical posts or just having a bad day but there is no way a rational person could feel slighted or disrespected by my previous post?!?

When you throw up posts in which the principle--in fact only--message is that you are tired of hearing people say "don't build skyscrapers," people who feel that we should not build skyscrapers might feel a little knocked around. I don't know...maybe it's just that a lot of nice folks have been saddened by the fact that the anti-skyscraper rationale is never addressed properly, it's just shot down straight away. Here I must take a passage from a little Nashville (Hard) Bound:

The "do not build a skyscraper" record gets old sometimes. Not in Sobro not in Midtown and now heaven forbid not even in the CBD?!?!?!

Now you never hear any of the skyscraper proponets saying please not another 5 story brick building or why rehab that old building for lofts when you can build a new skyscraper. I for one welcome a very diverse mix of developments.

Some people don't think of skyscrapers as a legitimate form of architectural "diversity," any more than they think of provisional Big Box retail shacks set in parking lagoons as a legitimate form of architectural "diversity," because of a genuine belief that they are inherently flawed--particularly when allowed to proliferate randomly in neighborhoods (SoBro, the Gulch, Midtown) where Midrise is called for simply because there is not already have a precedent of highrise. Who would want Paris demolished and replaced with skyscrapers? Aside from Le Corbusier, I mean?

Some people believe that the Signature Tower is okay in Downtown (some do not!!). But I think many people would agree that it would be indecorous (like wearing your jammies to a state funeral) for that giant sucka to plop down in, say, Belmont/Hillsboro.

Now I challenge all of you to address the actual logic behind midrise love, rather than simply continue to tell highrise antagonists that their opinions are not welcome simply because you don't like or understand them. If I need to reiterate the logic behind midrise love, I will be happy to do so.

Let's assume that the BIG SIG T (Hooty Hoo!!) is going downtown, and that this is acceptable. Would Signature Tower be out of place if it were behind Bosco's in Hillsboro Village?

[LA_TN]

Ok, enough, I'm going to say some of you are not living in the real world.

3 groups of people:

1) those that live here

2) vistors from rural areas/smaller cities

3) vistors from larger cities

1) burb people could care less, city people will take pride in Sig T

2) some will be amazed, the rest would never move to the 'big city'

3) height and density - Sig T resolves the first issue

Now then, Sig T is going to put some serious $$$ people downtown. Why is Cool Springs growing? Because company owners don't drive far to work. Add 2+2 folks...Sig T is much bigger than just one building, the residents will make a lasting impact on DT that we can't even comprehend today...

[nashvol85]

One comment I'll add to this is that everyone that I have talked to (who isn't big into urban development/skyscrapers) seems to think this proposal is amazing. Even some ol' folks who I thought would oppose such a project think that it will be a great thing for the city. The only way I think this project will have a negative effect on the city is if there is a large group within the city that does not want the tower to be built. So far I have not heard many who think this so far.

[ATLBrain]

One way to look at Signature is to ask yourself... what would you rather have: 400 luxury units built vertically or 400 McMansions?

[barakat]

One way to look at Signature is to ask yourself... what would you rather have: 400 luxury units built vertically or 400 McMansions?

AMEN! This exact thought had crossed my mind.

[Nashvillain]

AMEN! This exact thought had crossed my mind.

Sort of like, well, would you rather have Bush or Kerry? Neither actually, but since I have to choose...How about some brownstones? What about some Victorian mansions, sort of like what was downtown 100 years ago or something similar to the French Quarter? What about a 1047 foot tall compensation mechanism/ego massager? Oh, wait.

I meant to quote ATLBrain's post that monsoon quoted below.

[monsoon]

One way to look at Signature is to ask yourself... what would you rather have: 400 luxury units built vertically or 400 McMansions?

Is there really any difference? Given that there is no land shortage in Nashville that would warrant such a tower, the Signature Tower is a testimate to excessive living. Just like the McMansion. Personally I think cities are best served by building human scale architecture that appeals to and can be afforded by a large cross section of people. Signature towers (pun intended) don't do this.

Someone earlier said they didn't like the fact that DC had a height limit to something like 12-14 stories, but I would argue that DC, as a result, has some of the best street life in the entire country.

[Guest]

Villian

We have been round and round on the scraper debate so on that I agree just to disagree no harm no foul, after all one man's 1047 foot tall ego massager is anothers home.

I would love a brownstone (not so much the victorian) but again what would the price have to be to justify what, 20-30 brownstones instead of 330 Viridian Units? And with the frontage problem you would be walking down an alley just to reach your front door. Maybe some of the lots that are too small for a tower there seem to be plenty.

And finally I am curious what your thoughts are on scraper v. a parking lot. The last proposal for this parking lot was in 1994 for a HCA?Columbia tower (per FMJ).. If there were two or three proposals for this lot say a tower or a twelve story or sow row houses then I think a debate could be a positive but it this case it was a tower or parking lot.

[Nashvillain]

Villian

We have been round and round on the scraper debate so on that I agree just to disagree no harm no foul, after all one man's 1047 foot tall ego massager is anothers home.

I would love a brownstone (not so much the victorian) but again what would the price have to be to justify what, 20-30 brownstones instead of 330 Viridian Units? And with the frontage problem you would be walking down an alley just to reach your front door. Maybe some of the lots that are too small for a tower there seem to be plenty.

And finally I am curious what your thoughts are on scraper v. a parking lot. The last proposal for this parking lot was in 1994 for a HCA?Columbia tower (per FMJ).. If there were two or three proposals for this lot say a tower or a twelve story or sow row houses then I think a debate could be a positive but it this case it was a tower or parking lot.

It's not really a debate since it's Tony's property, he can build what he wants. I've never stated otherwise. I can express my opinion on what he builds, though. In this case, I think what he intends to build sucks. For the reasons that monsoon stated above, for a lot of the reasons that others have stated in the past that have since gone on to other things. For issues like wind shear and creating an inhospitable environment for people to actually function in. For issues of energy usage/sustainability/practicality which people (developers/architects/politicians/you&me) should consider coming to terms with and not sticking their head in the sand/up their butt, assuming that things will continue on the course pioneered in the last century. For basically being an ever present reminder and stunningly blunt symbol of the ever widening gap between the rich and poor, the aforementioned haves and have nots.

[Guest]

Actually Tony G just bough the land earlier this year though he may have had an option to purchase for a while.

It seems I have failed to realize the extent of your feelings regarding towers and or the class system. It is evident that we have very different views on basic points.

So I will listen to old Ben's wisdom and beg off.

"He that blows the coals in quarrels that he has nothing to do with, has no right to complain if the sparks fly in his face. "

Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

[Nashvillain]

Actually Tony G just bough the land earlier this year though he may have had an option to purchase for a while.

It seems I have failed to realize the extent of your feelings regarding towers and or the class system. It is evident that we have very different views on basic points.

So I will listen to old Ben's wisdom and beg off.

"He that blows the coals in quarrels that he has nothing to do with, has no right to complain if the sparks fly in his face. "

Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

So what does that mean in regards to this conversation, we shouldn't have it? Or I shouldn't have a part in it? Class system? Which country is this? Ben Franklin is spinning in his grave.

[monsoon]

Indeed. UrbanPlanet is here to promote cities and the urban environment, not skyscrapers, (there are other places for that). Skyscrapers can add or detract (which is often the case as they are built in the South) from urban living so the question and discussion are very valid.

[ricky_the_great]

well this thread is really enjoyable to read haha.

[Guest]

Not at all have at it by all means your points are as valid as mine.

We are just approaching our positions regarding a scraper from diametrically opposing positions that go much deeper than the Signature and as such will probably just talk past each other.

The quote was aimed at myself not you. This whole tall v short, urban fabric v plastic phallic symbol is really not my quarrel and thus I can bring no passion to the debate.

[Guest]

Let's assume that the BIG SIG T (Hooty Hoo!!) is going downtown, and that this is acceptable. Would Signature Tower be out of place if it were behind Bosco's in Hillsboro Village?

NT I will play along and answer no I think it would stand out. But on the other hand I would not like a one level structure like Bosco's on the Signature lot. How about you? Anybody?