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Water woes fail to dampen Biltmore plans

by Christia Gibbons

The Business Journal of Phoenix

June 23, 2006

The vision is grand.

A five-star hotel, destination shopping, $1.5 million condominiums, pedestrian garden walkways, fancy restaurants, easy parking. Welcome to the renovated Biltmore Fashion Park and a vision for the future of the Camelback Corridor.

But, "It's all pie in the sky until the water issue is taken care of," said David Scholl, Westcor senior vice president of development.

Even as Westcor submits zoning changes to the city of Phoenix this week to make way for residential components in two 165-foot mid-rise, mixed-used towers, it's tackling the concern over an overloaded system that could cause water pressure problems.

Biltmore Fashion Park owner Westcor and other developers, such as Houston-based Hines, New York-based Bayrock Group LLC and Red Mountain Retail Group, took it upon themselves last week to send out requests for proposals to engineering firms to study the scope of the problem and the cost to fix it.

Hines is an international real estate company which owns the office building at the southwest corner of Camelback and 24th Street; Bay Rock Group is an international real estate investment firm that is developing a luxury condominum hotel on the southeast corner of 26th Street and Camelback; and Red Mountain owns the Town and Country shopping center at 20th Street and Camelback.

Hines Vice President and designated broker William Olson said the developers joined "to get our arms around the nature of the water issue."

As it stands, the city has set aside $37 million to fix residential problems in the neighborhoods around 24th Street and Camelback during the next five to seven years. However, the city doesn't have any water plans to accommodate high-rise commercial development in the area.

The Business Journal last July reported that the city's Water Services Department was alerting builders that because Phoenix's sewer system was nearing or at capacity in certain parts of the city, residential infill projects would not be approved until the city or developers offer a solution to improve water delivery to the area.

The last developments along Camelback Road to receive building permits were Optima Biltmore Towers, the 15-story residential structure at the southwest corner of Camelback and 24th, and The Residences at 2211 Camelback, a 12-story luxury condominium.

Olson credits District 6 Phoenix City Councilman Greg Stanton, City Manager Frank Fairbanks and acting Water Services Director Tammy Perkins for "thinking big" and cooperating with developers in talks about the issue.

"We need to know in 2006 dollars, what the estimate of the magnitude of cost to address the water concerns is," Olson said.

Previous estimates by the city have been $14 million to $15 million.

Ray Quay, the city's assistant director of water services, said plans call for a pump station and two 24-inch pipes to relieve commerical water pressure concerns.

With future high-rise development, "we'll be unable to move water along in the Camelback Corridor fast enough." Currently, high-rises cannot be built there.

"The city's viewpoint, I think, is that fixing this (Camelback Corridor) commercial problem clearly rests on the shoulders of the developers," Olson said.

"The cost of the project and who will bear the cost still is undetermined," he said.

Scholl said he would like the water problem resolved in 2007. Westcor would like to open its proposed residential and hotel towers in 2009.

Renovations to Biltmore Fashion Park, which began about 90 days ago, are expected to be completed by November.

Scholl and Olson said their properties don't have water pressure problems, and their development plans are within the guidelines set by the city.

The water pressure concern should not, he said, hold up the building of a second Hines tower. It's just that "in a perfect world, the city would like everything fixed in advance."

Stanton said talks between the city and high-rise developers are continuing. "There will be no significant delay to ongoing developments," he said.

Scholl said the water pressure issue is "the biggest hurdle" Westcor faces. All is going well with the renovations of Biltmore Fashion Park, he said.

In fact, since Westcor bought the high-end shopping center in December 2003, retail sales have steadily increased, going from about $500 per square foot then to around $700 per square foot today, Scholl said. Once the facelift is complete, Scholl said he hopes to see that retail sales number up around $900 per square foot.

"There's no return on the investment (currently), we just think it's the right thing to do for the future," Scholl said.

The revamped fashion center is the prelude to the grander vision of a bustling complex offering luxury living, offices, upscale shopping and a five- or six-star hotel, he said.

As for likely hotels, Scholl said "the names are incredible," but he would not elaborate.

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Not to switch the discussion to Tucson, but this exact issue was mentioned in the comments made on Presidio Terrace last night, and somehow became an argument against it (because the Camelback Corridor is just like Downtown Tucson!), although it was misconstrued.

I would think that the developers would be willing to put forth some of the money for this particular infrastructure improvement, although I've always felt that developers should partially finance infrastructure (mainly school construction, parks and roads), particularly in large-scale developments.

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wow thanks for the info Loftguy, don't be a stranger!

I enjoy making my presense felt from time to time :yahoo:

Not to switch the discussion to Tucson, but this exact issue was mentioned in the comments made on Presidio Terrace last night, and somehow became an argument against it (because the Camelback Corridor is just like Downtown Tucson!), although it was misconstrued.

Here is the major difference between Tucson and the Biltmore:

http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/metro/135631.php

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Here is the major difference between Tucson and the Biltmore:

http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/metro/135631.php

Sorry, I don't get it. Do you mean that the fact this project was approved is a difference, or the height, or what?

I was being sarcastic though. Downtown Tucson is nothing like Camelback, and never will be (a good thing, I think).

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Sorry, I don't get it. Do you mean that the fact this project was approved is a difference, or the height, or what?

I was being sarcastic though. Downtown Tucson is nothing like Camelback, and never will be (a good thing, I think).

Yeah- I just meant that one day you read an article about "height controversy" in Tuscon, and the next day you read an article about it being unanimously approved.

Now the Biltmore area- we would need a year and a half of protesting, committees, politics, press, blood, sweat, tears to get the issue resolved.

(And then Donald Trump left town and gave us the finger)

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Yeah- I just meant that one day you read an article about "height controversy" in Tuscon, and the next day you read an article about it being unanimously approved.

Now the Biltmore area- we would need a year and a half of protesting, committees, politics, press, blood, sweat, tears to get the issue resolved.

(And then Donald Trump left town and gave us the finger)

From what I heard, if I were Donald Trump, i'd be giving us the finger too. I'd LOVE to have a trump tower in Phoenix. What were people thinking Joel? I think they kind of gave him the finger first.

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He stuck in there- he had some appointees trying to smooth things over for about a year...

He even bid on a lot in Downtown Phx that was zoned for 50 stories (Grace beat him out).

-But that little sliver in the Biltmore area just happened to be the worst pocket known to man as far as the NIMBY's go...

So he left- and I don't blame him one bit!

I was told that Phil Gordon threw him under the bus to clear the way for the ASU ballot.

-I don't claim to know much about politics though...

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I can't imagine Phil Gordon doing that. I mean the only thing I know about Phil Gordon is that he's a democrat. But come on, If Donald trump comes to town and wants to build a signiture tower, one would assume a mayor would work with him, in a city that's desperately trying to get development downtown. So Desparate in fact, that they are building a 32 story hotel, with the cities own money!

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The new city financed, 32 story Sheraton Hotel. I'm not sure how tall it'll be but given that it's residential, i'm going to wager between 300-400 ft. While i'm at it though, every street in downtown Phoenix right now, is completely tore up. Why did they rip the entire city up all at once?

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I saw that yesterday, didn't get a good pic. Thanks loftguy, That looks more like a rebuild, instead of a renovation. :)

When it's all said and done, that convention center is going to be huge. Do you think we'll get big conventions? National notariety?

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  • 2 weeks later...

The W hotel is slated for development on top of the Sun- Merc building (Downtown warehouse district). -There is a lawsuit right now over the plans- but I imagine this will get ironed out eventually- I am very much hoping this will happen because I love W hotels and we need one (Scottsdale is getting one why can't Phx?)

As for The Sheraton- the city is building this to help aid the Convention center guests... You posted of it (32 stories)

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From what i've seen of the sheraton, the design looks kind of old Vegas and boring. It seems rather uninspired. Although I'd imagine, that might be in part to the fact that we are in the desert, and boring looking structures run much more efficiently. I'm going to wait for the finished product before I start conveying judgement. One thing I know is that it's pretty much going to tower over the AZ center. Those buildings are alot shorter than I thought they would be.

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Heh, MJLO dunno if you still need more details about what Biltmore is ccause no one really gave a great description but heres a relative synopsis.

The Biltmore area is the most famous neighborhood region of Phoenix (ever since the past). It was named after the Arizona Biltmore Hotel (designed by Frank Lloyd Wright). Back in the 50s it was a celebrity hot spot (a favorite by Marilyn Monroe). Many presidents stayed there (actaully every president for the last 60 years or so). So clearly, it became a natural luxury region. Biltmore Fashion Park was the first luxury shopping destination in the Phoenix area. When Fashion Square was still a regular nothing mall, the Biltmore had I. Magnin (an luxury department store). Today it is one of the most successful malls in the nation, with some really famous brands there (Saks, Macys, Cartier, Ralph Lauren, etc.)

Its also popular business area (Esplanade towers in the region are the most prized business buildings). Best Western, Petsmart and U-haul all locate here (haha thats from wikipedia). THe area has also sprouted many famed local eateries. Many celebrity chefs opened restaurants in the area back in the early 90s. There was once a Wolfgang Puck restaurant there (but the brand eventually did poorly and was abandoned).

Along with the Biltmore Hotel theres also the Ritz Carlton in the area. the Phoenician isnt too far down the road.

THe neighborhood is the "old money" of Phoenix. All three Arizona billionaires live here. However, recently more young people are moving in. Harry Morton (CEO of Pink Taco, President of Hard Rock) bought a house here. Amare Stoudemire recently bought a home here. Charles Barkley lives here. The band Korn once owned a winter getaway here. Brandy Norwood lived here.

Edited by shrek05
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I work at Sky harbor. From the parking ramp on T4 I can see three distinct skylines in Phoenix, Downtown. Uptown and the third one which is dense in appearance, but doesnt have a midrise over 200ft. I believe that to be Biltmore. Is that a correct assumption?

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I work at Sky harbor. From the parking ramp on T4 I can see three distinct skylines in Phoenix, Downtown. Uptown and the third one which is dense in appearance, but doesnt have a midrise over 200ft. I believe that to be Biltmore. Is that a correct assumption?

I don't think it is any dender than Downtown- current height limit seems to be 15 stories in the Biltmore area. Lots and lots of NIMBY's!

It is the "classy" area of Phoenix... Although Old Town is making a push for that it seems. (Arguably)

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