Bon Secours Wellness Arena

[distortedlogic]

You guys have some good points. I think the inside is ok, but I did notice that your shoes stick to the floor just about anywhere you walk, it could certainyl use a good mop job. other than that, the inside is fine. The outside is another story. Even when it was new, I never liked the outside. I don't think the brown and white go together very well (ie the apts at Gville Tech; they already look 20 years old!). It could definitely use a more modern makeover. However, I agree this is almost impossible given the money situation. I completely disagree with your statement WHR that there is not much community desire for it. I think there is tremendous desire, I just think that it has been victim to poor management from the get-go. Also, The sports teams were poorly marketed, and a lot of other cities have just happened to build newer or larger facilities since it opened. But I think we are greatly mistaken if we imply that it has not had an incredibly positive impact on Gville, DT, and the exposure for the upstate and even the state.

[gvegascple]

Dreaming here...

Once the Gateway development is built,

Yep, That is definately a dream. I can't imagine even the developers actually believing in this project. I still suspect an ulterior motive

Bilo Center surroundings will be a hotspot for nightlife and entertainment and offer all that any event-goer could ask for.

I agree with GvilleSC on this one. I cant think of a sucessful venue that does not have a string of thriving pubs and restaurants (read- Dinner and a show/game) linining the pedestrian pathways towards it (well, besides the BiLo Center that is..) Even Flour Field has the Taproom and its barely been open 2 years. This is very evident that if the BiLo Cntr Mgt got their act together, it would spark some development nearby which would provide another reason to go to the Bilo center. Once that self perpetuating ball got rolling, I think they would be in much better shape.

Edited March 4, 2008 by gvegascple

[vicupstate]

Yep, That is definately a dream. I can't imagine even the developers actually believing in this project. I still suspect an ulterior motive

I agree with GvilleSC on this one. I cant think of a sucessful venue that does not have a string of thriving pubs and restaurants (read- Dinner and a show/game) linining the pedestrian pathways towards it (well, besides the BiLo Center that is..) Even Flour Field has the Taproom and its barely been open 2 years. This is very evident that if the BiLo Cntr Mgt got their act together, it would spark some development nearby which would provide another reason to go to the Bilo center. Once that self perpetuating ball got rolling, I think they would be in much better shape.

The Bi-Lo Center will never have pubs/restaurants lining the pedestrian pathways, because there are no pedestrian pathways. The site is completely surrounded by multi-lane, sigh speed traffic arteries.

[GvilleSC]

The Bi-Lo Center will never have pubs/restaurants lining the pedestrian pathways, because there are no pedestrian pathways. The site is completely surrounded by multi-lane, sigh speed traffic arteries.

There is plenty of land around the Bilo Center (mostly all on one side, though). They don't really need that parking lot when there's a city owned garage right there.

[lifeisajourney]

I don't think there is any real money to have much in the way of maintenance, or capital improvements at the Bi Lo Center. The facility basically is one step ahead of its debt payments, has been for years. I don't think there has been any real improvements or such in that facility since before the NCAA basketball tournament, and that was six years ago now.

It was always a near run thing on getting a constant stream of revenue to not only pay the debt, but continue to make improvements and have quality entertainment. The facility seems like it is in maintenance mode mostly. Anyone familiar with the decades of the coliseum debate in Greenville probably isn't surprised that the facility struggles. There isn't any real money for it, nor is there much community desire for it.

When it was opened in '98, there was a nice, top level appreciation for it, especially in the number of luxury suites used, the early crowds for hockey, etc., but the curve of crowd total crowd size and luxury rentals has grown smaller and smaller over time. Special events have just died there. The Southern Conference basketball tournament didn't draw flies, and the even fled to North Charleston, probably never to come back for example. Add in competition with the Colonial Center, the Gwinett Arena, the arenas in Charlotte, along with all the other issues and there you have a ten year old facility that is aging fast, and unless some things change - for this goes far, far beyond what management does or doesn't do (and with Centerpoint having less of a role since the Grrowl folding) the Bi Lo Center will just be a larger version of the Memorial Auditorium after a while.

Just a slight correction: the first year the Southern Conference Tournament was here it drew the most fans in the history of the event. From what I hear, Sheer and his group just had a bad business plan and didn't make any money off of it. That's why it never returned.

[vicupstate]

There is plenty of land around the Bilo Center (mostly all on one side, though). They don't really need that parking lot when there's a city owned garage right there.

The problem is not a lack of land, it is pedestrian friendly access. The center is completely cutoff from pedestrian access by the auto-centric roads that completely surround it. Compare that to the Fluor Field.

[GvilleSC]

The problem is not a lack of land, it is pedestrian friendly access. The center is completely cutoff from pedestrian access by the auto-centric roads that completely surround it. Compare that to the Fluor Field.

How so? Most people would probably be coming from Main Street down either Beattie or Elford, both of which have sidewalks and then crosswalks for Church Street. No one would be coming through the cemetery, which is really the only stretch that I can think of that would potentially cause problems for reaching the site. So pedestrians would have 'safe' means of access to the site. No one has trouble reaching the Bilo Center, as it is. Sure they may have traffic cops, but they don't do anything more than what can be done by pushing the 'walk' button at the lights anyway. Are you one who also believes that the Gateway site will fail without a shuttle because people will be too afraid to go to the site or leave it? Hmm, sounds like the perfect location for a jail or crazy house!

[gvegascple]

The problem is not a lack of land, it is pedestrian friendly access. The center is completely cutoff from pedestrian access by the auto-centric roads that completely surround it. Compare that to the Fluor Field.

This is a very good point. It is fairly surounded by highways circling around it rather than supported by several avenues that would be considered pedestrian friendly leading towards it.

Maybe the city could help them out by building a pedistrain bridge over to E North St. That area is where many already park and there are also a bunch of vacant buildings that could be renovated into restaurants, bars, shops for folks to patronize prior to an event/show. This would keep the potential retail shopper in town longer, rather than just goign to the bilo, and getting back into their cars and leaving. This could then help with the Gateway project and even the POM make more sense in their locations.

[Danmire]

I think the biggest obstacle to making pubs/restaurants viable around the bi-lo center is that there is nothing along the arteries to the bi-lo center to entice pedestrians to walk that way. Unless you are going to an event there is nothing along east north st, beattie place or elford that would really make you want to walk down those streets.

IF the gateway site fills in with what they are planning that would go along way as you can see that site as you are walking down either of those streets away from Main st.

[GvilleSC]

Unless you are going to an event there is nothing along east north st, beattie place or elford that would really make you want to walk down those streets.

The same could be said for the ballpark site. Yet, it was built and today restaurants and retail shops are open along BOTH Augusta and Main Streets. If we waited for things to be attractive 'along the way' to a location, then maybe the original building blocks for downtown revitalization, The Peace Center and the Hyatt, should have been placed adjacent to one another. Surely no one would walk down those 6 blocks of 'nothing' to get from one to the other. But, today, life has filled in those 6 blocks and expanded both past and out from this original stretch. Do I need to go on? McBee Station is 3 blocks off of Main (the same distance as the Bi-lo Center). Prior to construction, The Bookends' phase I sat empty at ground level. It's not the case today.

This is all stemming from a 'vision' of creating an "entertainment cluster", which by selling land would also benefit the Bi-lo Center's finances and potentially help them draw more events...

The only reason I'm still arguing this point is because it takes a vision to get things done. And to me, it seems like some people have just written things off (real or make-believe) on account of it being out of the ordinary, or might require some adjustments. With that kind of attitude, we could have some potential candidates for open positions on the DPC...

[vicupstate]

The same could be said for the ballpark site. Yet, it was built and today restaurants and retail shops are open along BOTH Augusta and Main Streets. If we waited for things to be attractive 'along the way' to a location, then maybe the original building blocks for downtown revitalization, The Peace Center and the Hyatt, should have been placed adjacent to one another. Surely no one would walk down those 6 blocks of 'nothing' to get from one to the other. But, today, life has filled in those 6 blocks and expanded both past and out from this original stretch. Do I need to go on? McBee Station is 3 blocks off of Main (the same distance as the Bi-lo Center). Prior to construction, The Bookends' phase I sat empty at ground level. It's not the case today.

This is all stemming from a 'vision' of creating an "entertainment cluster", which by selling land would also benefit the Bi-lo Center's finances and potentially help them draw more events...

The only reason I'm still arguing this point is because it takes a vision to get things done. And to me, it seems like some people have just written things off (real or make-believe) on account of it being out of the ordinary, or might require some adjustments. With that kind of attitude, we could have some potential candidates for open positions on the DPC...

Apples and Oranges...

Traffic arteries do not surround and isolate Fluor Field the way the BiLo Center is surrounded and isolated. All it takes is new in-fill buildings to go up to eliminate the 'gaps' along S. Main between the ballpark and Shoeless Joe Jackson Plaza. With Main street from the Hyatt to the Peace Center, it took even less, you just had to fill the empty storefronts. That's not the case with the Bi-Lo Center, the isolation created by the traffic arteries has to be addressed.

This is the same reason Heritage Green is cut-offf and isolated from MainSt/DT. No one wants to cross Academy.

You simply can't ignore these things.

The retail and restaurants need to go where they will succeed, where they will be in the 'flow of things'. Otherwise, they are forced to create their own 'flow'/draw. That is difficult for a start-up business to do.

[gvegascple]

Apples and Oranges...

Traffic arteries do not surround and isolate Fluor Field the way the BiLo Center is surrounded and isolated. All it takes is new in-fill buildings to go up to eliminate the 'gaps' along S. Main between the ballpark and Shoeless Joe Jackson Plaza. With Main street from the Hyatt to the Peace Center, it took even less, you just had to fill the empty storefronts. That's not the case with the Bi-Lo Center, the isolation created by the traffic arteries has to be addressed.

This is the same reason Heritage Green is cut-offf and isolated from MainSt/DT. No one wants to cross Academy.

You simply can't ignore these things.

The retail and restaurants need to go where they will succeed, where they will be in the 'flow of things'. Otherwise, they are forced to create their own 'flow'/draw. That is difficult for a start-up business to do.

I agree with your point. This might not go over very well with our height-centric folks, but how about instead of a super sky skraper on the gateway site, we instead have an entertainment complex to complement the BiLo Center? Im thinking a few restaurants, retail, pubs, a Jillians-esque sports bar, and an IMAX theatre. We would have to build a nice pedestrian bridge or two to get folks over those pesky arteries but they have used them very effectively in other cities like downtown Baltimore, etc. I think that another anchor tennant that far north combined with one at the Main @ washington would spark quite a bit of renewed interest in filling in the gaps in greenville.

[RestedTraveler]

Apples and Oranges...

Traffic arteries do not surround and isolate Fluor Field the way the BiLo Center is surrounded and isolated. All it takes is new in-fill buildings to go up to eliminate the 'gaps' along S. Main between the ballpark and Shoeless Joe Jackson Plaza. With Main street from the Hyatt to the Peace Center, it took even less, you just had to fill the empty storefronts. That's not the case with the Bi-Lo Center, the isolation created by the traffic arteries has to be addressed.

This is the same reason Heritage Green is cut-offf and isolated from MainSt/DT. No one wants to cross Academy.

You simply can't ignore these things.

The retail and restaurants need to go where they will succeed, where they will be in the 'flow of things'. Otherwise, they are forced to create their own 'flow'/draw. That is difficult for a start-up business to do.

You are absolutely correct, vicupstate. I agree with you 100%. The Bi-Lo Center is surrounded by some major arteries (Academy Street, Church Street, East North Street, and Beattie Place). There's really no room immediately in the area for pedestrian-friendly development other than on the parking lot adjacent to the Bi-Lo Center itself - but that wouldn't be practical in my view.

Yes, connecting both the Bi-Lo Center and Heritage Green with Main are challenges. They're not impossible challenges, though. They're doable. If you can't attack the problem head-on (which appears to be case with the Bi-Lo Center and all that surrounds it), then try to go with some off-set flanking approach. To connect the Bi-Lo Center with Main, a great development on the Gateway site to anchor and attract other developmet would be a huge start. That's why this site is so important, I feel. If that can be done first, then I feel it just takes some additional developments proposed and delivered by developers with a desire to provide smart pedestrian-oriented mixed-use developments along Beattie Place, East North Street, and East Coffee Street (not Elford though - there's little that can be done along Elford) to provide this connection. If you look at the satellite/aerial imagry of these streets, you can see that there's lots of empty lots and room for development that would connect Church to Main.

[Danmire]

The same could be said for the ballpark site. Yet, it was built and today restaurants and retail shops are open along BOTH Augusta and Main Streets. If we waited for things to be attractive 'along the way' to a location, then maybe the original building blocks for downtown revitalization, The Peace Center and the Hyatt, should have been placed adjacent to one another. Surely no one would walk down those 6 blocks of 'nothing' to get from one to the other. But, today, life has filled in those 6 blocks and expanded both past and out from this original stretch. Do I need to go on? McBee Station is 3 blocks off of Main (the same distance as the Bi-lo Center). Prior to construction, The Bookends' phase I sat empty at ground level. It's not the case today.

This is all stemming from a 'vision' of creating an "entertainment cluster", which by selling land would also benefit the Bi-lo Center's finances and potentially help them draw more events...

The only reason I'm still arguing this point is because it takes a vision to get things done. And to me, it seems like some people have just written things off (real or make-believe) on account of it being out of the ordinary, or might require some adjustments. With that kind of attitude, we could have some potential candidates for open positions on the DPC...

The Bi-lo center was opened 10 years ago. What has filled in between there and Main St in those 10 years? Fluor Field was opened 2 years ago and it's aready sparked development around it. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!!!

[GvilleSC]

Apples and Oranges...

Traffic arteries do not surround and isolate Fluor Field the way the BiLo Center is surrounded and isolated. All it takes is new in-fill buildings to go up to eliminate the 'gaps' along S. Main between the ballpark and Shoeless Joe Jackson Plaza. With Main street from the Hyatt to the Peace Center, it took even less, you just had to fill the empty storefronts. That's not the case with the Bi-Lo Center, the isolation created by the traffic arteries has to be addressed.

This is the same reason Heritage Green is cut-offf and isolated from MainSt/DT. No one wants to cross Academy.

You simply can't ignore these things.

The retail and restaurants need to go where they will succeed, where they will be in the 'flow of things'. Otherwise, they are forced to create their own 'flow'/draw. That is difficult for a start-up business to do.

You're not paying any attention to what I'm saying. I'm not comparing the minute details of the sites, which include the traffic arteries. All of that can be worked around with better crossings, and/or pedestrian bridges. Therefore, it's a non issue. Who says that the foot traffic must come down Elford, Beattie or North Streets? I'd say bring people down Coffee Street, which has the most potential for development, then up Church and across the Gateway site. It's not impossible. How can we ever truly expand our downtown if we let "arteries" keep us boxed in? If that's the case, we'll never get passed Academy Street to the north and west, and we'll never get passed Church to the east. But wait, that's right. We WILL get pass those boundaries, because we WILL address them appropriately when the time comes for them to be addressed.

Otherwise, they are forced to create their own 'flow'/draw. That is difficult for a start-up business to do.

Precisely, but not alone. With residential space, office space, and a good branding scheme, people could be attracted. Especially with the gateway site, the potential for a thousand people to be in the immediate area at any given time isn't too far fetched. They might not want to walk to Main and would have options right there at their back door.

All of this is a pipe dream. Don't take life so seriously people.

[GvilleSC]

The Bi-lo center was opened 10 years ago. What has filled in between there and Main St in those 10 years? Fluor Field was opened 2 years ago and it's aready sparked development around it. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!!!

The Bilo Center isn't the draw that we're talking about here. Or I'm not. I'm saying that a village sort of idea should be set up around the Bilo Center to provide options for those going to events, to draw people from the Gateway site, and to simply keep more money in downtown. The new mix of residential office space, retail, and restaurants would be the draw, because they'd be open all year round everyday, as opposed to the Bilo Center which is open a few nights a week.

[Greenville]

I see what GvilleSC is saying about the Bi-Lo Center area, and agree that it can work. At this point, we don't really know whether pedestrians are intimidated by those major arteries or not. We're assuming that people will be hesitant to do that, but if they have a REASON to do it then they probably will. If I am at the Hyatt on the corner of Main and Beattie, and there is nothing going on at the arena, why would I walk that way? To check out the detention center?!? To see what's going on at the cemetery? I don't think so.

The problem to me is not pedestrian access as much as it is the lack of a reason to walk to that area. The Gateway site can play a big role in improving that. What if it has a restaurant on one of the high floors? That would certainly entice people to walk there. Or what if one of the two restaurants involved a Tyler Florence restaurant? I don't think people would hesitate to cross 3-4 lanes of traffic in that case, especially with the pedestrian crosswalks and crossing signals to guide them. We're not talking about crossing an 8-lane interstate, folks.

I definitely see room for some mixed use or even just retail on the land adjacent to the Bi-Lo Center. It would have to be destination-oriented, either by itself or due to its proximity to the Bi-Lo Center, because it is out of the way from the rest of downtown. But it could work, and would certainly be better than some of the stuff that is currently at the Bi-Lo Center.

[linkerjpatrick]

The Bilo Center isn't the draw that we're talking about here. Or I'm not. I'm saying that a village sort of idea should be set up around the Bilo Center to provide options for those going to events, to draw people from the Gateway site, and to simply keep more money in downtown. The new mix of residential office space, retail, and restaurants would be the draw, because they'd be open all year round everyday, as opposed to the Bilo Center which is open a few nights a week.

The Bi-Lo Center is also surround by areas that would make future development almost immpossible compared to the West End. You have a very historic cemetary, the Petigru Historic District, Court House, etc. The only place that can see any development are the Gateway project, and a few parcels like where the old insurance business used to be at the corner of Church and Academy. I think the Bi-Lo Center tried to be Memorial Autotorium 2.0 instead of something unique. It's a case of city planners thinking "inside the box" or big brown box so to speak. The West End Field a natural fit for downtown as the whole area has that classic baseball feel. I always felt the hockey team was an attempt for force something on us to try to make the Bi-Lo Center more of an attraction.

[gvegascple]

The Bi-Lo Center is also surround by areas that would make future development almost immpossible compared to the West End. You have a very historic cemetary, the Petigru Historic District, Court House, etc. The only place that can see any development are the Gateway project, and a few parcels like where the old insurance business used to be at the corner of Church and Academy.

I can see something like this (with a smaller water feature) accross from the street from the BiLo Center in the Gateway site. It's still dramatic enough to Still impress visitors as they enter Greenville, and probably more likely to get built. If it housed an IMAX and some other entertainment focused tennants and restaurants, I would be verry happy and then we could put our tallest building more towards the center of our skyline.

[Greenville]

I can see something like this (with a smaller water feature) accross from the street from the BiLo Center in the Gateway site. It's still dramatic enough to Still impress visitors as they enter Greenville, and probably more likely to get built. If it housed an IMAX and some other entertainment focused tennants and restaurants, I would be verry happy and then we could put our tallest building more towards the center of our skyline.

I think the Gateway project is important for the city, because of its location as well as what it will include. I can certainly live with a destination-type attraction on that site instead. It would work because it already provides parking access in addition to pedestrian access. We would have to be careful that it is not perceived as too out of the way, though. That was a problem with Charleston's IMAX which recently closed.

How large is the Gateway site? I wonder how interested those developers would be in putting that somewhere else? How many sites downtown would be large enough for that? Hey, they could perhaps be a part of the Main at Washington development.

I realize all of this is premature, because Marick is intent on being at the Gateway site. And I think it will work quite well for them there. I don't view their project as a longshot at all, but perhaps I am allowing my optimism to overshadow everything else. I just don't think we should hold the mistakes of previous local developers against these guys.

[breed]

Been gone for a while... finally checking back in to resurrect dead threads...

Here's a thought to start building pedestrian activity at the Bi-Lo Center... open skating. I'm sure the overhead associated with doing it is monstrous, so it may be difficult to pull off... but ice skating at the Pavilion is dangerously crowded... and there really aren't any other options in the Upstate. Allowing the Bi-Lo to serve as a recreational site will help build pedestrian activity on a routine basis, albeit an expensive one.

[whitehourseview]

Been gone for a while... finally checking back in to resurrect dead threads...

Here's a thought to start building pedestrian activity at the Bi-Lo Center... open skating. I'm sure the overhead associated with doing it is monstrous, so it may be difficult to pull off... but ice skating at the Pavilion is dangerously crowded... and there really aren't any other options in the Upstate. Allowing the Bi-Lo to serve as a recreational site will help build pedestrian activity on a routine basis, albeit an expensive one.

Like you say, that's probably not a practical option. But if there is ever to be minor league hockey back in Greenville, another ice facility is about essential. Several other minor league franchises, like the one in Charlotte for instance, have built their own ice facility that is open to the public for rental, for ice training and other physical fitness needs. It brings in a consistent revenue stream not dependent on an arena.

[gs3]

Interesting article about ice hockey in South Carolina. Back in the 1990's when ice hockey was a growing sport, South Carolina had four teams.....one in the Pee Dee, one in Greenville, one in Columbia and one in Charleston. The Pee Dee team folded in 2005. The Greenville team folded in 2006. The Columbia team has folded and played their last game this week. That leaves only Charleston with ice hockey, and per this article, attendance at the Charleston games is down from previous years.

Anyone think there is a chance of ice hockey ever returning to Bi-Lo or is this sport washed up in SC? Can Greenville support ice hockey? What would it take?

Article:

http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/may/06...key_state39793/

[Greenville]

Interesting article about ice hockey in South Carolina. Back in the 1990's when ice hockey was a growing sport, South Carolina had four teams.....one in the Pee Dee, one in Greenville, one in Columbia and one in Charleston. The Pee Dee team folded in 2005. The Greenville team folded in 2006. The Columbia team has folded and played their last game this week. That leaves only Charleston with ice hockey, and per this article, attendance at the Charleston games is down from previous years.

Anyone think there is a chance of ice hockey ever returning to Bi-Lo or is this sport washed up in SC? Can Greenville support ice hockey? What would it take?

Article:

http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/may/06...key_state39793/

That is a really interesting story. I think hockey can work here, but it will take some creative (and consistent) marketing by team owners to make it happen. The potential audience consists of:

1. Those who love hockey already

2. Those who have given hockey a shot, and simply don't care for it

3. Those who don't really know much about hockey, but are open to the idea given the right circumstances

4. Those who refuse to watch it, because it's a "Yankee sport" and "we don't play hockey here"

I think most people here fall into category #3. It's simply not a sport most people in our area grew up playing or watching. They will need some nudging from a good marketing campaign, or perhaps even their own children, to give it a shot.

We have a few people in category #1 (they are probably the ones who supported the Grrrowl consistently) and a few in category #2. The thing I'm not sure of is how many people we have in category #4. That seems like the key.

I hope that there is a price point that would get people in the door and provide good crowds at games. The question is, can a savvy owner pull it off?

Edited May 6, 2008 by Greenville

[gvegascple]

That is a really interesting story. I think hockey can work here, but it will take some creative (and consistent) marketing by team owners to make it happen. The potential audience consists of:

1. Those who love hockey already

2. Those who have given hockey a shot, and simply don't care for it

3. Those who don't really know much about hockey, but are open to the idea given the right circumstances

4. Those who refuse to watch it, because it's a "Yankee sport" and "we don't play hockey here"

I think most people here fall into category #3. It's simply not a sport most people in our area grew up playing or watching. They will need some nudging from a good marketing campaign, or perhaps even their own children, to give it a shot.

We have a few people in category #1 (they are probably the ones who supported the Grrrowl consistently) and a few in category #2. The thing I'm not sure of is how many people we have in category #4. That seems like the key.

I hope that there is a price point that would get people in the door and provide good crowds at games. The question is, can a savvy owner pull it off?

I know this has been brought up before, but a comparison between the Drive at Fluor Field and the Growl at Bilo has to be considered. As many baseball fans might fall into very similar categories listed above, you must look at why the Drive is thriving and why the Grrowl did not.

The Venu-The Bilo Center has not been kept up very well, and certainly would not win any awards or accolades in comparison to Flour Field. They also seem to add something new each year at Fluor Field

Location/Access-The Bilo Center is isolated and its hard to "make a night of it" such as shopping and a show or dinner and an event. While Fluor field has spurred growth around it, the Bilo Center never has. There are abvious access/isolation issues, but they have to be resolved.

Focus on the Family-The lion's share of events that succeed in town are geared toward the family

Marketing/awareness-The Growl did not seem to gain much support from local news, televised or print compared to the Drive

Edited May 6, 2008 by gvegascple