Say goodbye to gasoline!

[GRDadof3]

These formulas were derived 30 years ago and are not suited for vehicles like a hybrid. Hence, they predict much higher mileage than what is seen by drivers. Hybrids do best on city streets since they recover energy in the brakeing process. They actually get worse gas mileage on the highway than an equivalent convential car due to the extra weight of all the equipment on board.

Yes, I was taken aback by the gas mileage difference when I looked at a Civic Hybrid. I'm so used to highway mileage being better than city, not the other way around. Even the Honda salesman talked me out of the Civic hybrid. He said I'd be better off with a standard Civic, which has very low emissions as well as good gas mileage.

I don't think Hybrids are a waste, but they certainly are fighting an public perception war right now. If you look at them just for the gas mileage difference, it's pretty hard to justify the thousands of dollars extra that they cost. If you look at them for the low emissions and better gas mileage, and if you only drive in the city with constants stops and starts, then they start to make sense.

I find that most people who buy them do so for the status of saying they have one. I haven't heard of any anti-hybrid road rage though. That's a new one.

[Snowguy716]

The advantage to hydrogen electrolysis is this:

You can take the water locally, separate it locally, and save loads of fuel by not having to cart it half way around the world, refine it, and then ship it off to gas stations all over the country. I find it rather sad that Minnesota has the largest oil refinery for a state that produces no oil itself.

Of course it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, but that extra energy can come from renewable sources like solar, wind, hydro, etc.

I get sort of tired of this "if it's not the 100% perfect God would do it if he was human solution, then let's not bother at all"

We can't just sit around waiting for a miracle to happen... it's certainly better than the status quo.

[damus]

The advantage to hydrogen electrolysis is this:

You can take the water locally, separate it locally, and save loads of fuel by not having to cart it half way around the world, refine it, and then ship it off to gas stations all over the country. I find it rather sad that Minnesota has the largest oil refinery for a state that produces no oil itself.

Of course it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, but that extra energy can come from renewable sources like solar, wind, hydro, etc.

I get sort of tired of this "if it's not the 100% perfect God would do it if he was human solution, then let's not bother at all"

We can't just sit around waiting for a miracle to happen... it's certainly better than the status quo.

It'd be good for national security. Take us off the grid, which terrorists could use against us. Fuel cells could also reduce our dependency on oil from who should be our enemies.

[Snowguy716]

Very good point.

Or we could close off our city centers to cars, build electrified transport, mandate a 50mpg fuel efficiency rating, and take the money saved on gas and put it into researching even better alternatives.

Sure, you won't be able to buy a conversion van for the two of you and drive around the country.. but maybe you'd be able to get a decent train with an all glass scenery car.

[damus]

Very good point.

Or we could close off our city centers to cars, build electrified transport, mandate a 50mpg fuel efficiency rating, and take the money saved on gas and put it into researching even better alternatives.

Sure, you won't be able to buy a conversion van for the two of you and drive around the country.. but maybe you'd be able to get a decent train with an all glass scenery car.

I'm not sure who's going to be driving around the country.

In regards to what you said about cars, I take it that you're kidding. The economy would tank.

[monsoon]

Well actually, electrolysis is not an efficient way to produce hydrogen. The amount of electricity required to produce significant amounts of hydrogen would require us to build a lot more power plants either buring coal or using nuclear fission. (which has very nasty by products).

The current plan for Bush's hydrogen economy takes this into account and they way they are going to produce large amounts of hydrogen, maybe you didn't know this, is to refine it from oil. Now you know why he announced it.

It would be better if we invested our time, efforts and money on more renewable fuels such as Bio diesel, Ethanol, and making solar power more efficient. Hydrogen is a waste of time that will not bear useful fruit.

[damus]

Well... Bush did say he wants us to also use "clean" coal and nuclear technology. He also mentioned something about renewable energy in the last SOTU address, but I haven't heard of anything from that. I read about vertical wind turbines that are built by some company out west (i think montana). Due to the design of these they are able to be operational at higher wind speeds than the windmill style turbines we see today, and with each mph increase in wind speed the energy increases exponentially.

Isn't bio diesel unrealistic? How much of a waste would it be to produce vegetable oil simply for the fuel? In regards to ethanol, good luck. From what I read, corn based ethanol is a waste and takes too much energy to produce. Sugar based ethanol, what they use in Brazil, is supposedly the better alternative. The corn lobby is pretty strong around here. Ethanol is pretty expensive out in the northeast because the corn lobby got their way and there are tarrifs on imports of ethanol. That's partly why gas prices are more expensive here in the northeast.

[Snowguy716]

Sadly, Damus, I was being serious. Of course I was being a little sarcastic, but we need to head in that direction.

Train travel is quite amazing, no matter what George Bush says. And it is economical. Especially with an electrified train track. Let's take some of the money out of building new roads and put up some train tracks!

Some places in the country are realizing this, like the midwest.. where they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade train tracks for high speed service (110mph) with Chicago serving as a hub.

Beyond this, the Twin Cities are heading in a direction in which unless you are disabled, a car is unnecessary.

It would be so easy for Minneapolis to ban cars from the city center in about 10 years when you have commuter rail access, rapid bus transit, and two light rail opportunities.. plus shuttle buses that serve downtown already for $.50/ride.

If Europe can do it, and quite successfully, why not in the U.S in our densest areas? Europe's economy is actually doing quite well right now.. or maybe it's just their currency.

Sugar based ethanol would work quite nicely. And it would be good for Minnesota. Sugar beets are a big industry here

[damus]

What about handicapped people? You will need emergency vehicles to be allowed access, too. To completely shut off cities to traffic simply won't happen in this country any time in my lifetime.

[Snowguy716]

Of course. This is how it works in Salzburg.

Emergency vehicles

Taxis

Service vehicles

and vehicles with permits (handicapped people, etc)

Thru traffic is by no means allowed. Basically, traffic reduced by 80% or so.

[GRDadof3]

Of course. This is how it works in Salzburg.

Emergency vehicles

Taxis

Service vehicles

and vehicles with permits (handicapped people, etc)

Thru traffic is by no means allowed. Basically, traffic reduced by 80% or so.

Just about every city in the country shut off motor vehicle access to their main retail areas in the 70's and 80's, and almost every one of them became vacant, pedestrian-less, storeless ghost towns. Most have switched back to a narrow street with parallel or angled parking on each side, and most of them have seen some rebirth again.

I've only read about a couple of "transit malls", and I haven't heard whether they have been built yet or are successful.

On the topic of ethanol, there are quite a few ethanol/bio-deisel production facilities that are expanding quite rapidly in Michigan and other Midwestern States. There must be some kind of expanding market or they wouldn't be doing it.

[damus]

On the topic of ethanol, there are quite a few ethanol/bio-deisel production facilities that are expanding quite rapidly in Michigan and other Midwestern States. There must be some kind of expanding market or they wouldn't be doing it.

I'm sure most of the increased demand is stemming from a new regulation banning the previous additive in gasoline because of high numbers of carcinogens that are present when the exhaust is mixed with water. Ethanol is what everyone is using now.

[hood]

Ethanol and Biodiesel present other problems, they are expensive to produce and require subsidies to be feasable with current technology, I also heard that it's hard to transport. Also, I seriously doubt that there could ever be enough farmanlnd to supply us with enough of this stuff. I think the best short term option for alternative fuel is methane hydrates, they are in abundance just offshore and being methane would be an excellent energy source, they do require very careful extraction though.

[monsoon]

Gasoline is expensive to produce. When you add in all of the government spending on port facilities, tax credits to energy companies to build pipelines and refineries, and the huge military cost (both in money and lives) to protect the oil in unstable parts of the world, you would find the cost/gallon is much higher than what people are paying.

Ethanal and BioDiesel are a bargain in comparison and if even a small amount of government money that is spent on the oil industry is instead applied to these alternatives then they become very attractive alternatives and much more viable than hydrogen.

Isn't bio diesel unrealistic? How much of a waste would it be to produce vegetable oil simply for the fuel?

What is missed in these arguments is that BioDiesel can be produced from the by products of food production. How much vegetable oil do you think is thrown out into landfills by the fast food industry? And the by products of Biodiesel can be used as animal feed for farm animals. It is a very effective way to produce energy.

[damus]

What is missed in these arguments is that BioDiesel can be produced from the by products of food production. How much vegetable oil do you think is thrown out into landfills by the fast food industry? And the by products of Biodiesel can be used as animal feed for farm animals. It is a very effective way to produce energy.

I didn't bring it up because there isn't enough vegetable oil used by restaurants to fuel a good percentage of the population. I would guestimate that it's under 1%. The rest would have to be produced for the purpose of fueling these cars. I think someone here posted it, I saw a fast food company in the Pacific Northwest has a fleet of company cars fueled with biodiesel. It's admirable but I do not see it being a large scale solution to our problem.

[monsoon]

I didn't bring it up because there isn't enough vegetable oil used by restaurants to fuel a good percentage of the population. I would guestimate that it's under 1%. The rest would have to be produced for the purpose of fueling these cars. I think someone here posted it, I saw a fast food company in the Pacific Northwest has a fleet of company cars fueled with biodiesel. It's admirable but I do not see it being a large scale solution to our problem.

Tell this to Europe. Germany alone expects to produce 750 million gallons of BioDiesel this year and they are increasing production by 50%/year. The rest of the EU is following suit. The USA, with its vast areas for agriculture could produce huge amounts of the stuff.

[Cotuit]

Brazil expects to become energy indepent in the next several years by using ethanol produced from sugar cane.

Just about every city in the country shut off motor vehicle access to their main retail areas in the 70's and 80's, and almost every one of them became vacant, pedestrian-less, storeless ghost towns.

Boston's Downtown Crossing and Burlington, Vermont's Church Street Marketplace are successful auto-free zones. In Providence we had an auto-free zone on Westminster Street which did not work.

[dtown]

Tell this to Europe. Germany alone expects to produce 750 million gallons of BioDiesel this year and they are increasing production by 50%/year. The rest of the EU is following suit. The USA, with its vast areas for agriculture could produce huge amounts of the stuff.

there is an ethanol plant in Caro, Michigan and it alone produces 40 million gallons of ethanol by usi ng only locally grown corn. I think we could definitly produce much more of this stuff,

I saw a thing on TV about this guy who gos around and gets used vegetable oil from fast food places and makes his own biodeisel for like 40 cents a gallon. it was pretty neat.

[mclawsdrive]

Biodiesel from most crops isn't extremely efficient, although its better than efficiencies from corn ethanol. Most biodiesel is made from soy, which is a bad choice, its just something a lot of farmers already grow. Hemp, mustard seed and other crops produce far more energy for the effort. I won't even get into the currupt politics preventing hemp production in this country.

But the real future of biodiesel is in algea, (some types produce over 50% of their biomass as oil. This is compared to something like 2% for soy. Also, algea can be fed sewage waste to supply water and nutrients, and this can be done at the site of sewage treatment plants, or in the desert or other unuseable area (instead of using existing farmland). Ideally, we'd be using our existing sewage infractructure to produce valuable fuel (with a little help from the sun), all the while facilitating the waste treatment process and getting fertilizer from the broken down poo as a happy byproduct.

Research is underway, but is not recieving govt funding (guess the petroleum lobby might be scared about competition).

Additionally, experiments are underway using algea to filter smokestacks at coal power plants. The algea produce veggie oil as they filter the smoke.

In the meantime though, shouldn't all waste oil be used for fuel. Its pretty stupid to throw it away, when my Diesel jetta can get 48 miles on every gallon of it.

One final argument is that it is more cost effective to use veggie oil for soap production. This argument is completely bogus. The by-product of biodiesel production is glycerin (the ingredient that soap makers can obtain from veggie oil). These products aren't in competition for veggie oil, in fact, producing them together would lower costs for both products.

As far as ethanol goes, producing it from corn is stupid, but hopefully as research advances, we will be producing ethanol from the cellulose in agricultural waste.

In any case, research should be focused on cleaner burning diesel, because diesel engines are 30% more efficient than gasoline engines. If we want to consume less petroleum, we should produce more diesel engines.

[dpbaker]

While we're on the topic of gas... does anyone else come across people who insist that you're a moron if you buy a hybrid? I mentioned buying one to some of my more hickish friends (i live in rural CT) and they thought I was stupid. I like the accord, but the affordable civic hybrid is what I'd probably try to buy. I have heard of people who come across more road rage when driving a hybrid. My only qualm about buying one is socially; being lumped into the same group as the self-righteous "i'm better than you" liberal types. Obviously, this really isn't going to stop me. The reason I want to get one is so I'm not polluting the environment so much, not to save money on gas like many of the anti hybrid people like to rationalize it as.

I've seen various "hashings of the numbers" and it does seem that hybrid models, especially ones like the Ford or Lexus SUVs do not ultimately yield any cost savings when you factor in the average length of ownership, initial costs, etc. but like you said, for you and others it's less about cost and more about environmental friendlines. A recent article on hybrids in a local rag did report as good as 60mpg city! I can't remember though if this was an EPA estimate or if it was a real, driving test figure. The few drivers I have talked to about their (mostly) Priuses (all right, what is the plural of Prius? Prions....?) really like them a lot. They are certainly quiet, and they do give claims of significantly better mileage. The article also did highlight the "hybrid road-rage" phenomenon as well which seems to be real, at least here in the S.F. Bay Area, largely the big, SUV drivers whining about the hybrid drivers that actually drive the speed limit in the fast lane, God forbid.

I wouldn't worry what others think of you, just put an NRA sticker on your new hybrid and then they'll really be confused....

Have a look at the new Toyota Yaris, I think pushing 40mpg gas engine?

[hood]

There is company that has systems that can supposedly convert your car to run on hydrogen with no major modification, mainly to the computer system. Switch To Hydrogen! I don't know about this, it seems sort of suspect but after reading through everything it sounds like it may be for real. They claim there is some law being proposed by the Consumer Product Safety Commission regarding the sale of chemicals that has temporarly halted the sale of these systems.

[PghUSA]

FoxNews Heartland show on Saturday night had a segment with a man running an Orlando company manufacturing biodiesel from fast food waste.

Charris Ford in Colorado has been doing this for years. Glad to see it is catching on!