"We don't want to become another Atlanta"

[krazeeboi]

Oh yeah, you need to go to the NC board and get caught up.

[Mr.Marc]

Cola has all of its surrounding counties in it's MSA, but then there are none with pricipal cities healty enough in their own right to prevent commuting, thus influencing the MSA designations. This is not a superiority statement, merely factual. Just these three counties combined have a pop of 850,000. There is no other such area the state, period!

Acutally, Sumter is located right beside Richland and its not included in Columbia's MSA.

[Lady Celeste]

But according to the latest US Census reports, both Atlanta and Greenville (city limits) continue to lose population.

From what date to what date has these losses occured.

From the census own website.

Census Bureau

Per Wikipedia, the 2005 population of Atlanta proper....all 132 sq miles of her....was 442,100.

See here (scroll to demographics):

Atlanta/ Wikipedia

While not always exactly your source for valid information, I don't think Atlanta proper is losing population.

Even from this site, Greenville, while it did lose considerable population from 1990 to 2000, appears to be gaining in population as well.

Census Bureau info for Greenville

Now we all know you can find a million different numbers on a million different site on the internet. Since you mention the US Census, I decided to use their site as a point of reference.

I would be curious though to see your source.

[Jerseyman4]

Teshadoh, you said it.

I buy that

[Spartan]

But according to the latest US Census reports, both Atlanta and Greenville (city limits) continue to lose population.

But as we all know, the city limits in both cases are small, and don't reflect the actual growth of the area. Projections atually show both of them to be increasing slightly.

[teshadoh]

Wow - I guess I amaze my own self what I come up with

Corgi - what the others said, I understand your point, but surprise surprise - Atlanta is experiencing a huge amount of growth. But also - not even the population figures tell the whole story, including Greenville. You have gentrification, lower income housing redevelopment, residential to commercial rezoning / redevelopment & of course a static municipal boundary population that is not exagerated by high growth post-1980 suburban developed areas like municipalities with expanding annexing (of course there is nothing wrong with that - just jealous ).

Otherwise - sometimes a picture tells a thousand more stories than just a number. If you see a lot of new construction & renovations in downtown or near a downtown as is the case with Greenville - would you really say that it's suffering? Also - regarding population decreases, unless a city is witnessing a significant decrease over a prolonged time - I wouldn't worry about it. Aging areas naturally 'level out', so a minimal annual -1% rate isn't anything to be alarmed about.

[CorgiMatt]

Acutally, Sumter is located right beside Richland and its not included in Columbia's MSA.

Neither is Newberry County, and tons of people from Newberry commute to Columbia to work. And there is significant cultural interchange between the two counties. Newberry, in fact, is one of the towns involved in getting a commuter line to Columbia going. And Lake Murray neighborhoods near Prosperity are basically just across the lake from Chapin.

[CorgiMatt]

From what date to what date has these losses occured.

From the census own website.

[url="http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFPopulation?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=16000US1304000&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=atlanta&_cityTown=atlanta&_state=04000US13&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=population_0&ds_name=null&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null

[Lady Celeste]

I always wait and get my numbers from the only official source, the US Census Bureau in the yearly US Commercial and Marketing Atlas, which uses the census bureau's stats as of July 1 of each year. This years atlas, available in the reference department of any public library worth anything, lists Greenville city's estimated population as of 7/1/05 at 54,857, down from 56,002 in 2000. They don't give projections for cities in the atlas.

Like I said earlier, we can find a million different sources to say something that we want it to say. I went to the Census' own website and it in fact does NOT show that Atlanta has continually lost population. Now from their site it uses 2004 data. This should be pretty concrete I would think. I can't speak for Greenville, I can only use the census bureau's website but from 2000 till present Atlanta has not lost population. Since you were at the library (luckily, one that was worth something), did you check to see if Atlanta was continually losing population as you asserted earlier?

[Jerseyman4]

The fact of the matter is, most cities go through flauctuations of population, typically every decade or two.

[goodbye]

The fact of the matter is, most cities go through flauctuations of population, typically every decade or two.

And one thing they don't mention is the daytime population, which is far more indicative of the true size and growth of a city such as Greenville.

[motonenterprises]

Everyone thats been on these boards a while knows that Greenville truly has a population of 300,000+(urban area)! Screw those stats! This place is booming, I live here I should know right? And Atlanta losing population? Come on. It just moves around.

[krazeeboi]

I don't know if we should "screw" the stats (especially since you just used one, LOL), but instead consider which stats we're using and what they reflect.

[CorgiMatt]

Like I said earlier, we can find a million different sources to say something that we want it to say. I went to the Census' own website and it in fact does NOT show that Atlanta has continually lost population. Now from their site it uses 2004 data. This should be pretty concrete I would think. I can't speak for Greenville, I can only use the census bureau's website but from 2000 till present Atlanta has not lost population. Since you were at the library (luckily, one that was worth something), did you check to see if Atlanta was continually losing population as you asserted earlier?

The fact that we can use "a million different sources to say something we want it to say" is why, as I said, I always wait for the yearly commercial and marketing atlas. It is the source that gives the latest published census bureau's figures. The entire atlas is based on the latest official census bureau estimate figures. It has a glossary of definitions and goes into great depth about cities, counties, MSAs, core-based MSAs, income levels, retail figures, you name it. I could not live without it. The current edition, and I already look forward to next year's edition, shows that as of the 2000 census, Atlanta's municipal (the city; i.e. city limits) population was 416,474 and that as of 7/1/05 the estimated municipal population (the city; i.e. city limits) population was 399,217.

[motonenterprises]

I don't know if we should "screw" the stats (especially since you just used one, LOL), but instead consider which stats we're using and what they reflect.

Yes I did use a stat, but a stat that is more of a true indicator of a city's size. Not one drawn up by political lines. If you use those city population stats then Charlotte is bigger than Atlanta and Rock Hill is bigger than Greenville. But when you go to these cities you can see that this is no way in heck true. Atlanta feels a lot larger than Charlotte and Greenville feels a lot larger than Rock Hill. Because they truly are.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Will Rock Hill expand it city limits anytime soon?

Why does SC have such an anti-city laws?

[goodbye]

Fortunately times are changing in that department, even if a bit slowly. Now if every city in SC could grow as fast as Greer has recently, we'd have about 90% city population to 10% rural population in SC.

[krazeeboi]

Will Rock Hill expand it city limits anytime soon?

Not sure how big Rock Hill has grown in terms of size since 2000, but since that time it has been the fastest growing satellite city in the Charlotte metro area.

Why does SC have such an anti-city laws?

See here (post #6).

[Lady Celeste]

The fact that we can use "a million different sources to say something we want it to say" is why, as I said, I always wait for the yearly commercial and marketing atlas. It is the source that gives the latest published census bureau's figures. The entire atlas is based on the latest official census bureau estimate figures. It has a glossary of definitions and goes into great depth about cities, counties, MSAs, core-based MSAs, income levels, retail figures, you name it. I could not live without it. The current edition, and I already look forward to next year's edition, shows that as of the 2000 census, Atlanta's municipal (the city; i.e. city limits) population was 416,474 and that as of 7/1/05 the estimated municipal population (the city; i.e. city limits) population was 399,217.

I am totally confused now. You said that this commercial and marketing atlas uses the latest official census bureau estimate figures. I went to the actual census bureau's website and per their own website, Atlanta's 2004 population was 419,122. Now you are saying that as of 7/01/05, Atlanta's population is listed at 399,217. Are you telling me that in ONE year Atlanta lost 19,905? Something here is not right. Can you give me the exact title of this book in which you are getting this information so I can google it. I would find it hard to believe that in one year Atlanta can lose almost 20,000 people and it not make the news here. Especially with all newly constructed highrise residential buildings in the last four years. Am I to believe that all these buildings are sitting empty, all these new developments like Atlantic Station (which did not displace any pervious citizens as it was built on what was previously a mill) sitting empty.

Even the county in which Atlanta is mostly located went from 816,006 in 2000 to 915,623 in 2005. Are you telling me that 20,000 a year....A YEAR...are fleeing the city of Atlanta, a rate that would be 5%, and no public official has batted an eye to this event. All the infill debates going on within the city of Atlanta is because developers want to build larger houses inside the city only to watch them sit?

Here is the census bureaus own website with THEIR 2004 population stat.

Atlanta's 2004 Population

The Atlas you reference uses the census' own numbers. Are they saying that the census' own numbers are incorrect. I'm just confused as to where they got the 399,217 population stat. Fulton County Georgia has already challenged and won an appeal against the census bureau for county stats. There is a set way to calculate pop figures through zip code information. Atlanta does this yearly and the Census has already agreed with the county that this formula is correct so how can the numbers now diverge so drastically? It does not add up.

I will end this by saying Atlanta is not losing population and any source that can show that should be made readily available on the internet for scrutiny. What is the title of the book in which you are getting this information from? I will do some research on my own.

[sonofaque86]

Yeah, I don't know how the census burea gets their estimates sometimes...One year they got Columbia growing a couple of thousand people and another they say it gains like 40 people while other estimates by different people have it growing by thousands...They need to go to the cities personally or whatever and see the numbers because infill is happening like crazy.

[monsoon]

The Census Bureau provides detailed information on the methodolgy they use to determine population. Its more than looking at building permits. It includes the birth rate, death rate, migration, and so forth. They are probably better than anyone else on letting people know how they do their work.

[CorgiMatt]

I am totally confused now. You said that this commercial and marketing atlas uses the latest official census bureau estimate figures. I went to the actual census bureau's website and per their own website, Atlanta's 2004 population was 419,122. Now you are saying that as of 7/01/05, Atlanta's population is listed at 399,217. Are you telling me that in ONE year Atlanta lost 19,905? Something here is not right. Can you give me the exact title of this book in which you are getting this information so I can google it. I would find it hard to believe that in one year Atlanta can lose almost 20,000 people and it not make the news here. Especially with all newly constructed highrise residential buildings in the last four years. Am I to believe that all these buildings are sitting empty, all these new developments like Atlantic Station (which did not displace any pervious citizens as it was built on what was previously a mill) sitting empty.

Even the county in which Atlanta is mostly located went from 816,006 in 2000 to 915,623 in 2005. Are you telling me that 20,000 a year....A YEAR...are fleeing the city of Atlanta, a rate that would be 5%, and no public official has batted an eye to this event. All the infill debates going on within the city of Atlanta is because developers want to build larger houses inside the city only to watch them sit?

Here is the census bureaus own website with THEIR 2004 population stat.

[url="http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFPopulation?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=16000US1304000&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US13%7C05000US13121&_street=&_county=Atlanta&_cityTown=Atlanta&_state=04000US13&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=population_0&ds_name=null&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null

[Lady Celeste]

I have always found it strange that the Census Bureau's latest figures for cities on its website is a year behind their yearly estimate that takes place every July 1st. The source I'm talking about is the first place to go for the most up-to-date, most accurate marketing research statistics available to business executives: The Rand McNally Commercial Atlas and Marketing guide. The atlas comes out the first of every year and includes the Census Bureau's estimate of city populations as of July 1st of the previous year. I am using the 2006 edition.

Okay, the population estimate through July 2005 has been released by the Census Bureau. Atlanta's population is listed as 470,688. Where did Rand McNally get 399,000? I highly doubt that almost 80,000 people moved to Atlanta between July 2004 and July 2005.

[teshadoh]

I do have my own Rand McNally Commercial Atlas - they are wonderfully massive books full of statistical information. Rand does use their own estimates though - not the Census, except for the 10 year final figures. They also have devised their own version of urbanized area.

[Spartan]

Honestly, I would trust the commercial numbers slightly more than the Census ones when it comes to "urban area" stats. Census figures sometimes include areas that are added in- classified as urban- when they really shouldn't be... this is a result of politics. I'm not saying one is more correct than the other, just probably closer to the truth. None of this is perfect though.