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What type of development will be Grand Rapid's next tallest?

Pick and choose   81 members have voted

  1. 1. What shall it be?

    • Office
      12
    • Retail
      0
    • Commercial Mixed use (Office & Retail)
      21
    • Residential
      1
    • Residential Mixed Use (Condo & Apartment)
      8
    • General Mixed Use (Residential & Commercial)
      34
    • Hotel
      4
    • Government
      0
    • Other (Please List)
      1

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47 posts in this topic

I thought reading Grooter's comments lately I wonder what would be the next general use for a 500 ft tower in Grand Rapids, and this poll came to my head :P

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I thought reading Grooter's comments lately I wonder what would be the next general use for a 500 ft tower in Grand Rapids, and this poll came to my head :P

I was wondering the same thing after reading that article. What exactly was Grooter meaning when he said the "economics change" once you hit 500 ft.? Are there diseconomies of scale at that level, or is it just more difficult to build as you have that many more people to fill it with?

Also, thinking of a development at 40+ stories, are there any rumors, whispers, or even just wishful thinking of a company moving enough employees downtown to make a development like this viable? The only employers in the area that I can think of that would have enough employees and the means to bring them downtown would be Alticor and Steelcase (can't imagine Meijers would part w/ the cash for a new HQ).

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I was wondering the same thing after reading that article. What exactly was Grooter meaning when he said the "economics change" once you hit 500 ft.? Are there diseconomies of scale at that level, or is it just more difficult to build as you have that many more people to fill it with?

Also, thinking of a development at 40+ stories, are there any rumors, whispers, or even just wishful thinking of a company moving enough employees downtown to make a development like this viable? The only employers in the area that I can think of that would have enough employees and the means to bring them downtown would be Alticor and Steelcase (can't imagine Meijers would part w/ the cash for a new HQ).

I could see a couple major tenants like say Mercantile, and maybe a law firm, or real estate firm being able to make demand for a 500+ ft tower.

If the right developer can convince Mercantile to save the river, build downtown in an impressive 500fter...

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I wouldn't read too much into Grooter's remarks. He wasn't hinting, and he was probably "explaining" why he couldn't build an office tower for Tower II.

He may be pointing out the fact that land cost is rising so quickly, and that the higher you go, the "fixed cost" of land basically stays the same and becomes a smaller percentage of your total cost.

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It will be some time. We just do not have the services core yet in the business community. Perhaps a large merger or move could spur something like this - but I would not really count on it.

GR is always going to have a short downtown.

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I wouldn't read too much into Grooter's remarks. He wasn't hinting, and he was probably "explaining" why he couldn't build an office tower for Tower II.

He may be pointing out the fact that land cost is rising so quickly, and that the higher you go, the "fixed cost" of land basically stays the same and becomes a smaller percentage of your total cost.

im not reading anything into anything I'm just curious to people's predictions :P

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If anything, it would probably be a revival of the Lyon and Ottawa tower.

...then again, who knows what kind of surprises could be in store for the Riverfront site.

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If anything, it would probably be a revival of the Lyon and Ottawa tower.

...then again, who knows what kind of surprises could be in store for the Riverfront site.

My guess is maybe one signature 350ft+ tower, and many buildings in the 90-200 ft range. (Which isnt bad BTW)

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My thoughts on the next "tallest in GR" would be a mix use building that accomadates Office/Retail space on the lower floors, a mid to high end hotel in the middle floors and high end residentual on the upper floors. The top most floor would house an observation deck or a very high end 4 star resteraunt. In short, it will be a mix use development. Many of the recent tall buildings are being contructed in this pattern as in today's day and age it is not effeicent for companies, even big ones, to house their HQ's in rise rises. Building high rises are costly and more importantly, offices housed in sprawling low rise structures, such as Alticor's HQ in Ada, are more efficent at moving people to and fro and allowing for interaction between coworkers than high rises becuase no one is standing idle waiting for elevators nore is the work envionment divided up by many seperate floors. The alformentioned reasons were some of the considerations that promted Sears & Robuck to move their HQ from the Sears Tower to a sprawling complex out in the 'burbs. Becuase of this many recent developments featuring tall buildings are of a mix use nature. The Plaza Tower, which is currently the tallest in GR and containing a hotel and condos, is an example of mix use. Even the River Front development will result in a mix use complex if the existing office tower are considered along with the residentual spaces about to be added. Therefore the next tallest in GR will be mix use.

But no matter what the next tallest will be used for, I hope it beats out the current title holder by a sizable margin. Plaza Tower, then Eastbank Water Front Towers when constructed, surpassed the Amway Grand Plaza Hotel only by a slim margin and when viewed from a distance the two tower look the same height which was a bit of a let down when Plaza Tower was toped off. So let's root for a 400 to 500 foot edifice to take center stage as the next tallest.

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The next tallest building in Grand Rapids will be the original three stories of McKay tower. That's all that will be left after the multiple F5 tornadoes hit the city and the glaciers move down razing the all the remaining buildings. This will all happen during the fastest moving ice age the world has ever seen due to global warming.

The fiance had ordered "The Day After Tomorrow" on Netflix and delivered last night. Can you tell?

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The next tallest building in Grand Rapids will be the original three stories of McKay tower. That's all that will be left after the multiple F5 tornadoes hit the city and the glaciers move down razing the all the remaining buildings. This will all happen during the fastest moving ice age the world has ever seen due to global warming.

The fiance had ordered "The Day After Tomorrow" on Netflix and delivered last night. Can you tell?

:rofl: Good ole Dennis Quaid hes good at getting you worried :P

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The fiance had ordered "The Day After Tomorrow" on Netflix and delivered last night. Can you tell?

ARGH!!! I wish that I had demanded the two hours of my life back that I lost after watching that horrible movie. :angry:

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There is not enough office demand in West Michigan to warrant a large office tower. The 3 main employment groups - manufacturing, service and medical, do not traditionally use large amounts of downtown office space. It will be a long time before the service industries get big enough to need that large of a block of space.

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in today's day and age it is not effeicent for companies, even big ones, to house their HQ's in rise rises. Building high rises are costly and more importantly, offices housed in sprawling low rise structures, such as Alticor's HQ in Ada, are more efficent at moving people to and fro and allowing for interaction between coworkers than high rises becuase no one is standing idle waiting for elevators nore is the work envionment divided up by many seperate floors. The alformentioned reasons were some of the considerations that promted Sears & Robuck to move their HQ from the Sears Tower to a sprawling complex out in the 'burbs.

And look where that has got Sears today.

Developers can't stop building office buildings here in the Loop, and the market is very soft. I think what keeps things moving are these big law firms moving from building to building trying to out do each other with the best lobby or view.

If only Foremost Insurance had stayed in downtown GR where they were originally headquartered!

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And look where that has got Sears today.

Developers can't stop building office buildings here in the Loop, and the market is very soft. I think what keeps things moving are these big law firms moving from building to building trying to out do each other with the best lobby or view.

I think Chicago and NY may be the exception to the rule. I can't think of any mid-sized city that is building a commercial high-rise of 400+ feet right now. They're all residential. Target was supposed to build a new HQ tower in Mpls, but have now chosen a mammoth suburban area to build an employee "campus", with daycare, workout facilities, parks, lakes, baseball fields, blah blah blah. That seems to still be the trend these days with corporations. The land is just cheaper and is more of a blank canvas out in the burbs, unfortunately.

I really wouldn't mind a bunch more 10 - 15 story commercial buildings as infill, as long as they were designed well. Leave the higher air space for residential. Unfortunately, many people judge a city by its skyline, and high rise office towers tend to look more spectacular than high-rise condo towers, IMO.

Correction, I found a couple

West End Summit Tower 1 - Nashville - 406 ft - was supposed to be completed this year, hasn't broken ground yet

Queen City Square Phase II - Cincinnati - 406 ft - approved, has not started yet

And a couple in Atlanta that are proposed

There are probably a few more, but not many.

The chances that we would get an office tower that tall, like others have said, are slim and none.

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The alformentioned reasons were some of the considerations that promted Sears & Robuck to move their HQ from the Sears Tower to a sprawling complex out in the 'burbs.

Weren't they going through bankruptcy and needed the cash from the sale of the building? Pretty sure that was a MAJOR factor in Sears' decision. And the fact that the growth projections that convinced them to move there never materialized, I think were bigger factors than any inefficiency of the building.

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I think Chicago and NY may be the exception to the rule. I can't think of any mid-sized city that is building a commercial high-rise of 400+ feet right now. They're all residential. Target was supposed to build a new HQ tower in Mpls, but have now chosen a mammoth suburban area to build an employee "campus", with daycare, workout facilities, parks, lakes, baseball fields, blah blah blah. That seems to still be the trend these days with corporations. The land is just cheaper and is more of a blank canvas out in the burbs, unfortunately.

I really wouldn't mind a bunch more 10 - 15 story commercial buildings as infill, as long as they were designed well. Leave the higher air space for residential. Unfortunately, many people judge a city by its skyline, and high rise office towers tend to look more spectacular than high-rise condo towers, IMO.

Correction, I found a couple

West End Summit Tower 1 - Nashville - 406 ft - was supposed to be completed this year, hasn't broken ground yet

Queen City Square Phase II - Cincinnati - 406 ft - approved, has not started yet

And a couple in Atlanta that are proposed

There are probably a few more, but not many.

What about the 700 foot plus tower that is being bult in Mobile right now? I think that building is cmercial.

The chances that we would get an office tower that tall, like others have said, are slim and none.

I don't know how i messed that reply up, but i was thinking that the 700 foot plus tower now being built in Mobile AL. of all places, is being built for comercial use.

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I don't know how i messed that reply up, but i was thinking that the 700 foot plus tower now being built in Mobile AL. of all places, is being built for comercial use.

Wow, you're right:

http://www.skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?19290051

It's going to house the State's Pension Agency. Yeesh.

I didn't even think to look there. I think there also is a wild one planned for Louisville, KY. But the fact that we're having a hard time thinking of them is probably a sign. :P

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ok if not commercial or residential, how about governmental i.e. city county and state offices all rolled into one, is that enough office space to warrant a high rise???

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ok if not commercial or residential, how about governmental i.e. city county and state offices all rolled into one, is that enough office space to warrant a high rise???

I would say its good enough for a 25 story building.

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I would say its good enough for a 25 story building.

i wish they would rebuid city hall the wy it was, but maybe increase it in size... i.e. height :) I love older arch. gothic is my favorite :blush:

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There is not enough office demand in West Michigan to warrant a large office tower. The 3 main employment groups - manufacturing, service and medical, do not traditionally use large amounts of downtown office space. It will be a long time before the service industries get big enough to need that large of a block of space.

For awhile I had thought that since Gr has been so successful in the residential and medical development downtown that office vacancies would be low nad demand high. But after browsing through the real estate sites I noticed a whole lot of space available, especially in class B buildings. In a CBRE report in 2nd qtr 2005 they listed GR's core with a 18% office vacancy rate and they expected to go down because of residential conversion. I also thought that GR had quite a few large to maderately sized companies headquartered in it, am I wrong?

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For awhile I had thought that since Gr has been so successful in the residential and medical development downtown that office vacancies would be low nad demand high. But after browsing through the real estate sites I noticed a whole lot of space available, especially in class B buildings. In a CBRE report in 2nd qtr 2005 they listed GR's core with a 18% office vacancy rate and they expected to go down because of residential conversion. I also thought that GR had quite a few large to maderately sized companies headquartered in it, am I wrong?

There are some fairly good sized company HQ's....in the suburbs. Most of the office space downtown is law firms and financial institutions, with probably 5/3 Bank being the largest single user I would bet. Class A I hear has low vacancy rates, but there have been a lot of old buildings renovated in the past 5 years, which is probably the biggest reason why there is so much Class B vacancy.

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i wish they would rebuid city hall the wy it was, but maybe increase it in size... i.e. height :) I love older arch. gothic is my favorite :blush:

Hmmm I don't think we will ever see a return to gothic style, the economics of it just don't seem to be in its favor.

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There are some fairly good sized company HQ's....in the suburbs. Most of the office space downtown is law firms and financial institutions, with probably 5/3 Bank being the largest single user I would bet. Class A I hear has low vacancy rates, but there have been a lot of old buildings renovated in the past 5 years, which is probably the biggest reason why there is so much Class B vacancy.

They listed the class A vacancy rate at 9%, which is pretty low. They said that a large tenant would not have many, if any options for a building, but that's not uncommon in a mid-size city. Even in Lansing the most contigous class A space you can get downtown is around 40,000 sq ft, there is only around 150,000 sq ft of class A space available downtown total, anyone large typically has to build their own building in small to mid-size cities.

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