North Shore connector may not happen?

[TheGerbil]

There is a letter in today's paper from a former opponent of this project who changed his mind. The letter actually bugged me a little. So you can see what I mean, I'll just quote a key paragraph:

In contrast to the airy generalities Port Authority Board Chairman Jack Brooks set forth in his July 12 Midweek Perspectives piece ("All Aboard Mass Transit"), Mr. Onorato took the time to explain the details of the unselected alternatives for the connector (e.g., a bridge from Gateway Center or a bridge from the convention center), why they were not selected, what future potential there is to extend the system beyond the North Shore (North Hills, airport corridor, Allegheny Valley and beyond) and why we must capitalize on these federal and state appropriations for $400 million-plus.

Okay, is it just me, or is this ALL stuff that has been explained again and again? Maybe the Port Authority hasn't been as clear as they should, but this info was out there long before the meeting this letter writer attended. This just goes to show how many nay-sayers are simply not trying to inform themselves. I am glad this guy attended a town hall meeting at least.

[tooluther]

So "issue 1" in the PG this Sunday was letters to the editor again bashing the north shore connector. These people are starting to really piss me off. How is no one in this city informed about anything of value. One person said that they should be building the T to the airport instead of the North Side...HELLO!!!!! that's where it goes FROM The north side, this is a phase 1.

I spend the weekend in Chicago, and the "el" system is awesome...it really had me thinking about PAT. I'll get my thoughts together for a post later today (I'm sure you will all be dying in anticipation )

[blueblackcat]

How is no one in this city informed about anything of value. One person said that they should be building the T to the airport instead of the North Side...HELLO!!!!! that's where it goes FROM The north side, this is a phase 1.

Some of those people must not even know where the airport is. What makes me mad is that the newspapers get all kinds of mail like this and never seem to get the hint that their reporting must really suck.

[mjcatl2]

There was more last week on the plans to move ahead starting this fall. I forgot to post it and now I can't find it, but anyway I guess it's happenin'

[globalburgh]

About 2 weeks ago, blogger Chris Briem posted an update:

Pittsblog

Moderator edit: Just fyi, you aren't supposed to just link things without making some commentary of your own.

[blueblackcat]

About 2 weeks ago, blogger Chris Briem posted an update:

Pittsblog

The comment section on his blog is just infuriating. Where do some of these people get their facts? Somebody actually said that the only thing the connector will serve are trips to a game a couple times a year. Good for them!

[globalburgh]

The comment section on his blog is just infuriating. Where do some of these people get their facts? Somebody actually said that the only thing the connector will serve are trips to a game a couple times a year. Good for them!

Some people are against any big ticket transportation project. And others only support the one transportation project they think will have the most positive effect (usually in terms of self-interest). You can see my comment, though I know the MVE isn't popular here (or anywhere else, for that matter).

The comments on Briem's post provide another example of how divided Pittsburgh is. There are a million ideas to fix the region, but everybody seems to have their own. I think the best term to describe Pittsburgh politics is Balkanization. Embrace the big picture at your own peril.

[mjcatl2]

It frustrates me that anything that is not the city proper is deemed a suburb and that a highway would not only suck more people out of the city, but also put them into these "burbs"

The Mon Valley is not a cluser of suburbs, portions are subborn yes, but the river valley is a string of towns the grew from industry back in the day. The people deserve direct access to the city. The expressway won't be a cure all, or much, but it will help connect a long existing urban area to the regional core.

I know that very few people agree with me as any highway to them is the devil in concrete.

[UrbaniDesDev]

Then a priority should be running a T line down the Mon, not a major highway along the waterfront. A waterfront that could prove to be the savior for these communities, but not if it is separated from the community by a freeway, or I should say TOLL ROAD! I don't think it will help the old communities as much as it would introduce more sprawl throughout the surrounding townships

[mjcatl2]

There should be both. The T won't be extensive enough, it's not creating sprawl. These are old urban communities with awkward access. Again, I know that to many here, there is absolutely no justification for a highway, so I don't want to round and round on it - I am just pointing out that this isn't a sprawl thing.

[globalburgh]

Then a priority should be running a T line down the Mon, not a major highway along the waterfront. A waterfront that could prove to be the savior for these communities, but not if it is separated from the community by a freeway, or I should say TOLL ROAD! I don't think it will help the old communities as much as it would introduce more sprawl throughout the surrounding townships

I grapple with the sprawl that will certainly follow the highway. I'd love to see light rail down the Mon Valley, but no one is offering money for that project. Meanwhile, the poverty in this area is stifling. However, I think residents of the Mon Valley can and will do what Pittsburgh can't and won't do. All they need is that catalyst, someone with a vision.

[chucka]

The only old communities that the expressway will directly serve is Hazelwood and Braddock. But in serving those communities it will spilt them from the river and potential redeveloped brownfields. I grew up in Charleroi, one of the communities that is supposedly served by the toll road. The only thing, the on and off ramps are miles away from Charleroi's main street and empty out in the middle of farmland. If you travel the portion of highway that is currently open, you won't see anything except for forest, farms, and the growing amount of housing developments. I would agree that there needs to be better access to and from the Mon Valley, but this highway will not help as much as people say. Plus the cost of it is unbelievable, we should be spending that money for existing bridges and roads that need to be improved. Just look at the North Side to see exactly what a highway can do to a neighborhood.

[mjcatl2]

Don't expect much to happen in an area that has poor access.

[blueblackcat]

MJ, not this again! I know you firmly believe that this highway is such a good thing, but look at the price tag. It's not worth it. That kind of spending is not a priority. If they're willing to spend that arbitrarily ridiculous sum of money on a completely new turnpike, they should build the T into everywhere it needs to go *first*, and then immediately finish every other highway construction project around here that never got finished. One of the worst things about the Mon is that it's redundant, it just cuts a new road across many other unfinished routes that need to be expanded and connected to each other. The whole idea that yet another brand new highway project is ever going to solve the region's problems is absurd.

[mjcatl2]

I already said that I didn't want to go round and round on this again.

The Mon Valley has incredibly poor access. Sorry 51 isn't and will never be upgraded to a highway. The T will never be able to address the needs in and of itself. It's a fantasy to think that will. The T opened 20 years ago and just now the next leg is positioned to be slated for work. And it's only the first stop of a new leg, not even a serious route.

In the decades that it will take the T to even get to the Mon Valley, nothing is going to happen there.

[blueblackcat]

In the decades that it will take the T to even get to the Mon Valley, nothing is going to happen there.

It seems that supporting mega-highways out of cynicism for the alternatives is a good way to create a self fulfilling prophecy. Good news for killing support for more highway projects is gas is at $76 a gallon. Maybe now it won't take decades to get the political backing for mass transit to get built.

[mjcatl2]

It seems that supporting mega-highways out of cynicism for the alternatives is a good way to create a self fulfilling prophecy

Maybe, if that were the case to begin with, but its not. What it is, is reality.

[blueblackcat]

Maybe, if that were the case to begin with, but its not. What it is, is reality.

Either way, what's getting built for the T is a huge step forward. Unlike the MonFaye which was build against all logic, the single most expensive section of the T out to the airport is getting built first. In theory the rest of the way to the airport can get built piecemeal, station by station for a few million each and not require years of pending approval for funding. It's not destroying the city in order to help it, and it will start adding revenues to the regional economy a lot sooner than the MonFaye will, and it will also have a bigger overall rate of return. Throw in that it's a step towards energy efficiency and sustainable transportation, better air quality, etc, and we have a winner.

[mjcatl2]

Sorry I don't buy the irrational all or nothing fantasyland.

The region needs additional transit and needs better highway access as the transit can't address the issue as well as needed.

I would love a transit system so large that it would make Manhattan look like nothing, but it will NEVER EVER happen. It's going to take what, 4+ years just to cross the river - probably another 20+ for an extended Western route.

And oh yeah, in the meantime, we going to get money for an eastern route that not only covers Oakland, but eastern burbs... and let's not forget the North Hills... and of course the Mon Valley.

I would love it and it should already be here, but it's not and the political (or sadly, social will) isn't there to push it through (even as fast as it could happen, it would still be decades).

[Evergrey]

Thought some people might find this transit usage map interesting... it comes from http://www.briem.com

This map shows that the dense communities in the Mon Valley already have high public transit usage. IMO, this would make this area a good candidate for further public transit development (such as a T). A light rail line would represent a tangible investment in these communities... which is a big thing that seperates rail from bus lines... and could prove as a catalyst in turning these neglected treasures around. The map also shows that public transit usage is virtually non-existent in the Robinson/Moon/Airport area (doesn't the West Busway serve this area?) ...

[UrbaniDesDev]

Great map Evergrey. Notice the high transit usage in the T corridor through the South hills.

MJ. I would love to see The Mon Valley Expressway become reality, but the routes and thinking behind what they are proposing is SO poorly thought out and will NOT be a benefit to the region. There are better alternatives to what they are proposing but they remain so single minded. The fact that an another entire freeway's worth of traffic will empty on to the already overtaxed Parkway East is absurd.

PennFuture has offered better, more insightful alternatives but the Turnpike commision will have none of it. The Turnpike Commission has no interest in hearing what is better for the community they are only interested in what is bst for their agendas.

http://www.pennfuture.org/files/event_camp...anmap_82702.pdf

http://www.pennfuture.org/files/event_camp...portb_42402.pdf

The fact that in the bigger picture, the expressway offers 2 expressway routes to Morgantown makes it redundant. It should have gone from Uniontown to Chambersburg, Md. and not morgantown. This would have given a new route to DC via I68. This would have been more in the theory of the center and spokes plan, where Pittsburgh is the center and higways fan out from the center. This would have us bypass the Pa Turnpike and that would not benefit the fat turnpike commisioners. This highway has been poorly thoughtout from the begginning.

[Evergrey]

I believe you mean Cumberland, MD as opposed to Chambersburg, UrbaniDesDev. Great links.

[blueblackcat]

Sorry I don't buy the irrational all or nothing fantasyland.

There's "reality" and there's reality. The Mon-Faye has been getting built since the 1950's, and it's still not even close to being a "reality". It's a dead-end highway that nobody uses, and the most expensive, damaging, and highly-opposed section of it has yet to be funded.

The Mon-Faye most likely will never actually be completed. Gas is going way up, mass transit usage is going up, and sooner or later the bottom is going to give way from political support for more highways. But the desperate "reality" in the political world right now is that now they're looking to turn the construction over to profit-seeking foreign investors from Australia who would get to have their way with toll revenues, just to try to get it built.

Let's put this into perspective. We're considering to pull eminent domain over property owners AND local governments AND community groups in order to let profit-seeking foreign investors build a road that we have to pay tolls on that will dump all it's traffic on top of city infastructure that is nowhere close to prepared for it. It's been getting built for 50 years and the road is still completely deserted, disfunctional, because of that last piece. The Mon-Faye is useless without the Pittsburgh "extention", yet they waited for 50 years of skyrocketing construction costs, to build the most expensive piece last.

Versus the T which will have almost exclusively positive externalities and will be completed and fully functional in 4 years.

[globalburgh]

The fact that in the bigger picture, the expressway offers 2 expressway routes to Morgantown makes it redundant. It should have gone from Uniontown to Chambersburg, Md. and not morgantown. This would have given a new route to DC via I68. This would have been more in the theory of the center and spokes plan, where Pittsburgh is the center and higways fan out from the center. This would have us bypass the Pa Turnpike and that would not benefit the fat turnpike commisioners. This highway has been poorly thoughtout from the begginning.

I've recently suggested that Uniontown begin to look towards DC (and its exurbs). Certainly, that would make more sense than pinning the area's hopes on Morgantown or Pittsburgh. Regardless, much of the Mon Valley is effectively isolated from Pittsburgh. There is a transportation infrastructure problem. Would completing the MVE help? I have no doubt that it would help, but that is quite a price tag.

So we let the completed portion rot or syphon off money to maintain it?

I don't see a problem with a toll. I think that issue is a non-starter.

Are some of you suggesting light rail to connect to the completed MVE? I could embrace that as long as we are looking at an express rail system that doesn't have to stop at every surface street traffic light.

Do any of you think such a plan could garner the requisite political backing?

[mjcatl2]

It will be full functional across the Allegheny in 4 years - that's it.

I agree that the Mon-Fay path to Morgantown is not needed - frankly I don't see much of a point to most of the path south of Allegheny county. Sadly this is the only portion left to build. This is the area that need access to the city and could act as an alternate of the Squirrel Hill tunnel.