Arizona off-topic

[colin]

you guys I want rain!!!! I'll even take a lonely cloud in the sky

It rained here yesterday. Vail got an inch and it hailed in Midtown.

Today has been really cloudly (89 outside right now).

The storms will come soon.

[MJLO]

Colin where are you right now?

you're not in AZ that's for sure.

[convulso]

you guys I want rain!!!! I'll even take a lonely cloud in the sky

shouldda been here yesterday (and today, the way things are looking). driving down into town from campbell avenue in the foothills around 5 p.m., the sky was a sight. we drove I-10 east all the way to the safford exit, just to see how long it would last, and it rained hard the whole time. that area - the chihuahuan desert - gets a little more precip than we do in the sonoran.

[MJLO]

quit teasing me! Does the valley ever get rain? Or do we only get these five minute monsoon blips. Because if that's "rain" in the valley. I want no part of it! That's like having a big huge juicy steak in front of you and only being able to take a small bite.

[colin]

shouldda been here yesterday (and today, the way things are looking). driving down into town from campbell avenue in the foothills around 5 p.m., the sky was a sight. we drove I-10 east all the way to the safford exit, just to see how long it would last, and it rained hard the whole time. that area - the chihuahuan desert - gets a little more precip than we do in the sonoran.

Holy sh*t! And you just came from San Bernardino yesterday? That's a lot of driving you're doing.

Yeah, the area to the east and south of us just gets more rain. You can see it in the vegetation. It may be the elevation change, but it may also have something to do with the mountains.

Sorry, Matt, monsoons are typically only about 20 minutes long in one place, but pack quite a punch. We do get those days every once in a while where it rains for more than 2 hours, but it's not as common. There are also lots of days like what we're having today in Tucson: no real rain, but lots of cloud cover.

[MJLO]

send some of that cloud cover my way. It's only ever sunny in the valley. Not sunny in a cheery way. But sunny in the sun is angry and knows you have no place to hide way.

[MJLO]

Colin dude, I gotta ask, what is it exactly that you do? You're friggen everywhere. I'm sure you travel for pleasure, but do you also travel for business. It seems every week you have pictures of new places. Kinda makes me jealous.

[colin]

Well, you have to remember that I've been here for almost three years now, and I usually either go somewhere in Arizona or New Mexico, including a lot of little weekend stuff. I take a trip every chance I get, which is really the only reason I keep a regular job, however my vacation is now down to almost 0.

To answer the question, I'm a web developer at UA. I had to go to Phoenix a couple of times for some stuff involving GIS. Other than that, no travelling.

[convulso]

GIS - fantastic! i need to get my pc out here ASAP so i can get my GIS going again. open-source GIS on my mac is a joke. good field to go into, especially in these parts.

[loftguy]

I'm a native...

I've never lived anywhere else- so it's unfair for me to compare/ contrast...

-But I've visited many places.

And I do feel there is a lot to do in Old Town, Downtown Tempe, Midtown/ Downtown Phx, Biltmore/ Kierland areas if you live in these places...

You guys complain of Mesa- yes- Mesa is everyone's least favorite city it seems... (Of all of the Phoenix suburbs)

I understand the gripe/ complaints- believe me-

But I think with our youth- we should first try to be proactive about figuring out what needs to be done to better this city (assuming any of you plan to stay here).

-And it is hard for me to take the complaints seriously if you've never tried going to bars/ clubs in Old Town, shopping at Fashion Square/ Kierland, tried all the cool restaurants in MidTown (get connected and you'll probably like it here)....

Anyways- just my thoughts-

I always end up "sticking up" for Phoenix... -Hope not to offend anyone.

[convulso]

I always end up "sticking up" for Phoenix... -Hope not to offend anyone.

not offending me, for sure - you sound just like i do on the birmingham forum at times, sticking up for the hometown. i just like the fact that you stuck up for phoenix's glass / metal architecture trends in the new urbanism thread...no apologies for trying to acknowledge the newness of a new city by incorporating novel architecture. when everything's new and artificial, one way to build is to celebrate the newness and experiment with building types, etc.

i don't like phoenix (mostly), but i don't like what little i know about it; not catagorically everything i think i know. it would be hypocrisy for me not to acknowledge that i 'use' phoenix, even in the short time since i've lived here. i'm not convinced the good outweighs the bad; i just have no illusions that it's all bad. i like your attitude about doing something to address a place's faults instead of grousing about them.

[MJLO]

hey joel,

I understand what you are saying. I am still new here, and by no means hate it. I think one thing about these forums, is that with them come people who have opinions on all sides. I actually like Mesa. I mean it's the opitomy of a massive bedroom community. But I like saying I live here. I enjoy telling people I live in metro Phoenix, I really love what I learn about it.

But to me this is not home yet, i'm not sure if it ever will be. I'll reiterate what convulso said, Home is Grand Rapids, and I always root for the home team and stick up for it. I hear the word Michigan and my eyes light up. It's so cheesy but it's true. The hardest thing for me out here, has been the sunshine. I hate it with a fiery passion, it's unrelenting and it doesn't go away. I love rain, i love violent thunderstorms even more. As morbid as it is, I have found the one place on earth that has the most god awful boring weather I could find. I moved here, because my stepdad was sick, now I take care of my family. I know we have monsoons which last for like a month or so, but it's just not enough. But keep teaching me and showing me. I pray that I find a way to want to stay, because everyday at work I look on the boards and see all the flights to Detroit and sigh.

ok end cheesy rant.

and never apologize for sticking up for your home dude, it's what you should do

[convulso]

I pray that I find a way to want to stay, because everyday at work I look on the boards and see all the flights to Detroit and sigh.

dude, that was kinda tear-jerking, no shtt...

i think that the best way to deal is just to go ahead and admit to yourself that you like home, and you miss home, if it's true. at least, i started feeling a little better about being in tucson once i took that approach. i moved here by choice, and i knew more or less what i was getting into. i think the crazy amount of people here from other places puts a lot of pressure on this area - both phoenix and tucson. many of the problems both cities face are direct results of the transplant surge. i've told myself that i will move away - not necessarily even back home - just away - if i feel like my presence here is a drain on this area's very limited resources and i offer it nothing in return. in other words, if i get into habit of life here where i consume more than i'm able to produce / contribute, i'll leave. the appeal of using this absence from home - of finding out what you really value about your home, and what you miss, is further incentive, should i ever decide to move back. if you are here to help with family issues, i know your choices are not so easy. i think there is some aspect of life in this unique desert / weird urban environment that you may yet be able to focus your interests on. forums like this are good for that, and for having some idea of what it feels like to be elsewhere in the country. hope you can resolve the discontent one way or the other - it's not fun to feel far from where you want to be, at heart.

i do feel you on the weather. i miss the hell out of lightning storms...but i do NOT miss the humidity. i have friends telling me that humidity in AL is 93 percent right now, with no rain in sight - this on a 102 degree day. so for me, weather here is not all bad.

[colin]

Well said, convulso.

I actually completely agree that you should get involved to make your community a better place: be a part of the solution and not the problem. Tucson especially has a lot of upcoming issues (mainly water) that are going to bring out the growth issues and maybe push the idea that we have too many people coming in.

I certainly can't single out myself from this immigration, since I've only been here a few years, but I do work to try to support the community, in a number of ways. Even if you're not doing anything just yet, it's great that you're fully conscious of your potential strain on the community. I guess, in the Southwest, that's much more apparent than in other areas.

I get really frustrated with people who talk down to Tucson, especially those who say it's boring, which I think is totally ridiculous. Phoenix is the same way, I think. Despite it's problems, it still really is a beautiful place, and I can definitely see why one would grow to love it. I agree with loftguy in that there are lots of things to do there, you just have to get out and do them.

As for home, I've actually thought about that a lot, and don't really consider any place home more than Arizona. I've lived most of my life in East Texas, but have almost nothing good to say about it and don't even like going back there. And I was born in New Orleans, but moved away when I was very young.

But I've moved around a lot all through my life, so I don't know that I need a place that I call "home" to be comfortable. When people ask "Where are you from?" here in Tucson, I usually say "New Orleans" which brings out a barrage of stupid cajun jokes, to which I'll respond "I don't even remember living there. I've moved around a lot." That'll usually shut them up.

[MJLO]

I'd be proud to say I was from New Orleans, It's one of my favorite places. But I think most of us can agree, we are on this site because we are fans of our respective homes. I'll say it right off, I'm becoming a big fan of Phoenix, it definately has it's own culture. I really don't mind the fake titties SUV's and Starbucks. I absolutely love some of the developements. Right by my house there is a developement called Dana Park. It's flippin gorgeous! It may be tantamount to a glorified strip mall, and it may have a see of parking but I love the design of the place. You don't find things like that back east. Perhaps i'm establishment. But I love AJ's my mom gets alot of our food from there, my favorite part is their beer selection. I'm a big puss when it comes to drinking I'm not a fan of beer, unless it doesn't taste like beer. But I'll tell ya, Id LOVE to take anyone to Michigan. Grand Rapids of all the places I've lived has to be my favorite. Just so much fun. But it depends on what you're into I guess, my brothers and I are going for a drive today, either Prescott or Tucson. There will be pictures.

[convulso]

my brothers and I are going for a drive today, either Prescott or Tucson. There will be pictures.

ccol - we're heading either to prescott or to sonoita / bisbee, etc. today. gotta remember to take pics - i'm bad about that.

[colin]

Wow, everyone's driving somewhere! Let's guzzle that gas!

I went down to wine country with a friend, and to a vineyard I had previously skipped (Callaghan). Interestingly enough, it was by far the best wine I've had in that area, and I ended up with a bottle of one of their reds. I was disappointed that some of the wineries had closed though, specifically one in Patagonia and another near Sonoita. Also, the little one right on 83 south of the 10 didn't have their sign out, so they were also closed.

That Sonoita-Elgin area is so gorgeous though. You don't see that sort of landscape in many other places.

On the way back, I took the beautiful little forest road over the Santa Ritas and found a creepy, old ranch site that I had been to over two years ago, but could never find again.

There's another group of wineries on the east side of the Dragoons: Dos Cabezas, Fort Bowie and one other, with another in Portal on the east side of the Chiricahuas. I've never been to any of these, but probably will eventually.

My friend ended up with four bottles, which I thought was a little ridiculous. All except one were supposedly presents.

[MJLO]

Ok so we went to Payson. I loved it! It kind of reminded me of home with all the scary hill people and actual trees! I'll be headed back to Payson soon.

[colin]

Yeah, Payson's cool.

I really like the area around the rim there, especially Pine and Strawberry, which I think are just the coolest little villages. Heber is also nice.

Post pics when you can, if you have any.

[MJLO]

Just to let you guys know i'll be in Seattle this week for work. I may bring back pictures, but it's not a leisure event so more likely than not, I'll just be at the airport. But you all better get back here and start a talkin!

[colin]

Have a good time!

I love Seattle. Take the bus Downtown if you have a chance (174 or 194 express).

[MJLO]

i'm not going to get far from the airport my friend, but i'll do my best

with my crazy busy schedule over the next few days I probabally won't be seen as much as I want to be around, so keep the convo going guys i'll do my best.

[loftguy]

We're No. 5!

The Arizona Republic

Jun. 27, 2006 06:35 PM

For more than a year, Phoenix has looked forward to surpassing Philadelphia in population to become the nation's fifth-largest city. It didn't happen quite as fast as projected, but results of Maricopa County's official mid-decade census have ended the wait.

Phoenix had 1,475,834 residents as of Sept. 1, or 12,013 more than the Census Bureau estimated for Philadelphia as of July 1. Phoenix has been growing by an average of 77 people a day, and Philadelphia is losing population at 27 a day, so the two-month differential does not matter in the rankings.

Still, the Philadelphia area can thumb its nose at metropolitan Phoenix. The Philly region, with 5.8 million people, is fourth-largest in the nation. Metro Phoenix, at 3.7 million, ranks 14th.

Can downtown Mesa be restored?

By Sarah Lynch

East Valley Tribune

Jun 25, 2006

When Barry Bertani wanted to go somewhere special for dinner before catching a show at the Mesa Arts Center recently, he went to downtown Tempe. Dining in Mesa would have been more convenient for the 65-year-old Dobson Ranch resident, but, like many other Mesans, he feels downtown Mesa doesn't have much to offer. "I go to downtown Mesa and I think the clock has been turned back about 50 years," he said. "Downtown Tempe, even when Tempe was not so commercialized, had its charm and character and interest," he continued. "But downtown Mesa? It's just an embarrassment."

Most people agree that the rows of small shops and restaurants that comprise Mesa's downtown square mile just don't compare to the bustling bars of Tempe or the swanky art galleries of Scottsdale. By day, it's rare to see people carrying shopping bags, and by night, the streets are deserted. "People want to compare us to Scottsdale, Tempe or Phoenix, but those are regional downtowns," said Tom Verploegen, president of the Downtown Mesa Association. Scottsdale has its resorts. Tempe has Arizona State University. And Phoenix has a lot of public and private employment. Mesa's demographics and its sprawling size, by contrast, cannot compete, he said, even though it's the most populous city in the East Valley.

Many people had high hopes that the opening of the $100 million Mesa Arts Center would ignite a renaissance downtown. Almost a year later, not too much has changed, and experts say that's because it takes more than an arts center to make a successful downtown. A truly vibrant downtown should have a mixture of retail, institutional, residential and offices spaces as well as a supportive community that is willing to invest in all of those things. "I think it's pretty boring," said 18-year-old Mesa resident Peter Lora, who shops and works at Fiesta Mall but rarely goes downtown. "There's nothing to do. With Mesa being such a conservative city, if you're in your teenage years, you have to leave Mesa to have fun."

Many cities have college campuses based downtown. The development is vertical and dense, with storefronts and restaurants on the street level and offices and condos on higher floors. "It's like a three-legged stool," said Patrick Murphy, senior town center development specialist for the city. "You need residential, office and commercial for the stool to stand up straight."

ATTITUDES AND INCENTIVES

But while there are many factors that contribute to a less than vibrant downtown Mesa, some say the biggest problems boil down to two things: Attitudes and money. "Downtown Tempe has been institutionalized into the psyche of the citizen," said Rod Keeling, president and executive director of Downtown Tempe Community. "You can't say that about Mesa." That attitude in turn affects how much money a community is willing to invest in its downtown, Keeling added.

Mesa - like Scottsdale, Tempe and Chandler - has invested public money in its downtown in recent years. In addition to the arts center, the city spent about $20 million on an elaborate streetscape project to improve lighting, landscaping, sidewalks and public seating, among other things. But Mesa still differs from these other Valley cities in a major way: It has not been aggressive about digging into its budget to offer monetary or infrastructure incentives to private developers to help cushion the high cost of investing in a new downtown business.

Because there are many large, old buildings, the cost to tenants for building improvements is high - particularly if someone wants to retrofit a building for a new restaurant, Verploegen said. That, along with a lack of foot traffic, can deter someone from starting a business. "Mesa is at a point right now where incentives would make some sense," Keeling said. "Incentives are all about leverage. How does the city leverage a few dollars against huge dollars?"

In the past, the city has offered some incentives downtown, both on city-owned and privately owned property. Those have included selling land for less than its market value, waiving development fees, expedited design reviews, property tax abatements and limited-time offers to receive utility services at a cut rate, Murphy said. But with Mesa's tight budget, offering incentives downtown has become a rare thing, Murphy said. Most recently, the city offered roughly $80 million in incentives to De Rito Partners Development to construct Mesa Riverview on Dobson Road and Loop 202 - an area well outside the downtown region.

By contrast, Mesa's largest incentive package in a downtown development was a $1.7 million investment to revitalize the building that's now One MacDonald Center, which is home to US Bank and a Quizno's restaurant. The developer's contribution was $5.4 million. Incentives are approved on a case-by-case basis, and lately there's not been much money to offer, Murphy said. "If you offer people money, that would help. Yes," Murphy said. "Is that the only solution? I don't know. It's one of those things where if you throw money at people, would they have come anyway? That's one of the questions our (City Council) wrestles with."

Incentives are generally used in the early stages of the evolution of a downtown, Keeling said. They help plug development gaps, or the gap between the cost of a project and breaking even on an investment. Over time, incentives are less necessary as the market takes its course. Neil Calfee, deputy development manager for Tempe, said that's partly how Tempe created a successful downtown. The 1980s, he said, were Tempe's "heyday" of incentives. "We used every tool in the book in the early years," Calfee said. "In some respects, we wrote the book on how to do it."

Verploegen agreed that incentives are a good tool to encourage someone to take the plunge. A committee will be presenting a list of possible "creative" incentive programs to the Mesa City Council this fall that will not require a large city expense. "We need to build a case so strong that economic reasoning overrides the political uncomfortableness," he said.

While many different types of development are needed to give Mesa a boost, most people seem to agree that condos and apartments should be the focus for now. "I think if you see condos built downtown, you're going to see that market attract a different kind of retail downtown," said Charlie Deaton, president of the Mesa Chamber of Commerce. "But that's got to be in place. Those (businesses) aren't going to come here first and hope to attract the market to them." At the same time, however, visitors to the arts center complain about a lack of restaurants open during evening hours. While many have expressed interest in opening a more high-end establishment that stays open later, no one has done so.

TAKING THE PLUNGE

Among those who are looking to be the trendsetters for the restaurant business are Brad Jones, along with his friends, Aidan Shanahan and wife Karen Mayo- Shanahan. The trio hopes to open a family-friendly Irish pub with live music, a "warm woods" atmosphere and a menu that offers both traditional Irish fare and a slightly fancier kind of food. "We were in South Norwalk (Conn.) and it was a strip of restaurants, boutiques and independent shops - and it was very much a destination," Mayo-Shanahan said. "You went there to walk. You went to the coffee shop, the ice cream parlor." "When we moved here, we looked at Main Street and thought it had potential, but it was basically antiques and second-hand clothes."

One of the few upscale dining options downtown now is Bak'd, an eight-month-old restaurant on Main and Robson that features five- to seven-course meals and where food is considered an art. While the catering side of the business is booming, the restaurant side is lacking in customers. The restaurant had to stop serving lunch, and dinner is strictly by reservation. "When you leave, drive that way and count the empty buildings," said co-owner Tim Rogers. "The thing is, there is no draw for people to come to downtown except for the arts center."

It can be difficult to find the right piece of real estate downtown for such an ambitious investment, especially for smaller independent shops. For starters, much of the land is owned by the city. Some of it will be used for the planned expansion of Mesa Community College and the new City Court building, Murphy said. But developers are likely to hold off on projects until Mesa decides exactly what it wants to do. "We continually meet with developers who are interested in developing these properties," Murphy said. "We maintain a database of those interested in developing downtown. Over the past few years, this database has grown to well over 130 companies."

Entrepreneurs often come looking for a 2,000-square-foot space, but many of the buildings downtown are large, Verploegen said. While the costs of rent and even real estate are cheaper than Tempe or Scottsdale, the buildings are old and need to be brought up to code. That's where things can get expensive. A perfect example of a building that has had a hard time attracting investors is 25-29 W. Main Street. The 15,000-square-foot building has been sitting vacant now for roughly a decade.

Such problems have deterred Gary Ong, a restaurant owner and past president of the Chinese Restaurant Association, from any immediate plans to start a Chinese restaurant downtown. "You have to convert (the building) and it's almost like doing brand new construction," Ong said. "It's expensive."

The Downtown Mesa Association is concentrating on recruiting small, mom-and-pop shops to the downtown as opposed to giant corporations such as Starbucks or anchor stores like the Gap. Many, including Verploegen, don't believe there's a market downtown for the big chains. Bigger companies also are more likely to seek incentives. "It doesn't have the transportation hub that it has to have," Deaton said. "I think the days of having a Dillard's in a downtown has passed us by."

BACK IN THE DAY

It wasn't always this way, of course. Back in Mesa's early days, downtown was more of a retail hub with Main Street being part of U.S. 60. It had a J.C. Penney and a Newberry's. And there was the Nile Theatre where people went for entertainment. Then came the birth of indoor malls and the construction of the Superstition Freeway in the 1970s that then became U.S. 60. Anchor stores began abandoning downtowns and heading to the malls. Later, once Mesa became the first designated Special Improvement District in the state, things began to change for the better. It paved the way for the collection of funds to help improve the area and recruit new businesses. Around the same time, the Downtown Mesa Association was created to help with recruiting and to make it a nice, safe place.

Many buildings have been redeveloped since then. As of last summer, there had been 153 new commercial constructions and major renovations in the downtown since 1985, according to the Downtown Mesa Association. The downtown went from having four pawn shops to one in the past 20 years. Many homeowners and business owners have renovated the facades of their buildings. In fact, most would agree that Mesa's downtown has changed dramatically for the better. "I think we've come a long way," Murphy said. "We're getting compliments on how pretty it looks downtown."

For some, the area is an attraction. Josie Lopez, 21, of Scottsdale, loves the thrift shops. She said she hopes new stores don't take over some of the old ones. "To be honest, I like it the way it is," Lopez said. "It's really interesting. I like to explore it." When Verploegen first came to Mesa in 1984, downtown was two-thirds away from fulfilling its potential. Now, he noted, the city has a third of the way to go. But that's still about 20 years out of reach, he said.

[colin]

Thanks for posting, Loftguy.

I love how Downtown Mesa looks, especially Main Street, but I totally agree with the article: there is no where to eat!

My first time there, I tried to get some breakfast or lunch or maybe just coffee Downtown on a Saturday and there was nothing open. This despite a major museum and hotel nearby.

It wouldn't take much, I think, for Downtown Mesa to become a real hot spot. There's the convention center and a couple of major tourist attractions there, it's just a matter of making it vibrant. Incentives are definitely the way to go.

But I don't think it's totally fair to compare Mesa's Downtown to Tempe's, although they're so close that they'll probably always draw that. Chandler is a much better comparison, and I think what they've done is a much more realistic vision for Mesa.

I had read that the earlier '05 estimates put Phoenix at #5, so I'm certainly glad that the census counts confirmed it. Unless the growth slows down there (which will probably happen pretty soon), Phoenix is on its way to even surpassing Houston, who's certainly growing but not nearly at the rate here.

[MJLO]

Wow, that's a great article. I think that considering that Mesa, is AZ's 3rd largest city, and the 40th largest city in the country, should speak for something. Also given consideration, that next to Phoenix, Mesa is one of the oldest cities in the valley, and at one point that it used to be miles from Phoenix, should also add credence to the fact that it should have it's own city center. I think Mesa's conservative, narrow minded leadership have left the city at a very far disadvantage. I think Mesa is a testament, to what it's leaders want it to be. The crown jewel of bedroom communities, lawns and garages and massive parking lots everywhere. And a mormon temple literally on every corner, with other types of churchs few and far between. Not to knock on Mesa, it's the home team for me. But boy would I like to see the leadership do something progressive, and gasp, cultural.