Columbia Transit

[vicupstate]

Charleston has a lot of one-ways but Greenville does not. Both cities are trying to eliminate ones that they do have. One Way streets suck for pedestrian vitality.   In a city where the streets in the DT grid are very wide to begin with , One Way streets make no sense at all.  

[cabelagent]

14 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

Charleston has a lot of one-ways but Greenville does not. Both cities are trying to eliminate ones that they do have. One Way streets suck for pedestrian vitality.   In a city where the streets in the DT grid are very wide to begin with , One Way streets make no sense at all.  

 You think they want to eliminate/change one way traffic for E. North & Beattie (Greenville)? That would create terrible gridlock in/out of downtown...hope that would not happen.

[vicupstate]

3 hours ago, cabelagent said:

 You think they want to eliminate/change one way traffic for E. North & Beattie (Greenville)? That would create terrible gridlock in/out of downtown...hope that would not happen.

I think they want to but aren't willing to upset the apple cart. They certainly would not want more One Way streets. 

[carolinagarnet]

Is there any benefit that converting two way streets into one way streets would provide beyond giving Columbia a more urban feeling? I live in a major city of one way streets and I do not see a huge upside unless you have very heavy traffic flow and want to build capacity within the existing grid. Columbia has almost nonexistent traffic downtown at most times of the day. Assembly would arguably be the only candidate for conversion based on traditional metrics and that would be a disaster. 

[growingup15]

Yay the Bill was signed. 

SC Gov. Haley signs roads plan with Malfunction Junction fix

http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/the-buzz/article82539257.html

[victory]

7 hours ago, growingup15 said:

Yay the Bill was signed. 

SC Gov. Haley signs roads plan with Malfunction Junction fix

http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/the-buzz/article82539257.html

I'm so glad this got done. Better late than never.

[Spartan]

I think it would be a huge stretch to get light rail in any city in South Carolina. The politics just aren't there to support it. In order to fund a light rail system, you need a dedicated revenue source - usually in the form of a sales tax. If you listen to South Carolina politicians, you'd think that the state has the highest taxes in the country, so much so that a meaningful road construction bill took years to get through (and still doesn't accomplish everything it needs to). That said, it would be a local option sales tax, so if Richland gets its act together then it's not inconceivable. The bigger challenge, IMO, is getting Lexington on board. Lexington is one of the more conservative counties in the state, so I have a hard time believing they would pass a tax increase to pay for a train. 

I think it makes sense to plan for a system in the future, and reserve space so that someday it can happen. 

Commuter rail probably makes more sense in the near term especially if the discussion is about connecting USC/Downtown out to Newberry, but I can promise you it won't happen by 2020. A strategy plan or vision plan would be a good first step.

 

On 6/3/2016 at 1:19 PM, carolinagarnet said:

Is there any benefit that converting two way streets into one way streets would provide beyond giving Columbia a more urban feeling? I live in a major city of one way streets and I do not see a huge upside unless you have very heavy traffic flow and want to build capacity within the existing grid. Columbia has almost nonexistent traffic downtown at most times of the day. Assembly would arguably be the only candidate for conversion based on traditional metrics and that would be a disaster. 

One-way streets can make sense in certain circumstances, but generally speaking they don't really 'add' anything to the urban environment. There are pros and cons from a pedestrian standpoint - the main pro being that traffic is only coming from one direction, making crossings easier, the main con being that the traffic tends to be faster. They work well in cities where you have a reliable grid of streets. Portland, for example, has very small blocks (~200ft) and relatively narrow streets compared to Columbia's rather large blocks (~520ft) and very wide streets. In Portland, the one way streets make a lot of sense because they grid system allows them to alternate one way streets in such a way that it isn't confusing. In Columbia and Charleston, the one way streets seem random and make it more confusing to navigate the city. Plus, like others have said, the streets in Columbia are sufficiently wide and they can accommodate plenty of traffic with a two way street.

[MAJIKMAN]

I understand what you are saying Spartan. Politicians up this way in Greenville have been in discussions for years about the very same things, light rail, commerter rail between Greenville the airport and Spartanburg, for that matter anything not having to do with roads has been ridiculed. Attitudes are changing though . Like with the proposal by the Greenville county councilman for the pods ideas. Which didn't pan out. In fact it made more people start to think out side the box. Cause most of us know that more and wider roads are the answer. So I'll challenge all my fellow Carolinians to push for anything to get more cars and trucks off the roads. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by MAJIKMAN

[carolinagarnet]

Deloitte hosted a course in long-term technological trends in the public sector. In it, they asserted that ride sharing will have the single largest impact on traffic. Public transit serves a critical role in guiding future development, but cannot serve every neighborhood in a city regardless of how extensive it is. Many people refuse to take buses or trains because they are inconvenient, they don't like the frequency/schedule, they do not like riding with a lot of other people, etc. Car sharing addresses many of these issues: technology makes finding fellow riders quick, easy, and financially attractive, you will typically be paired with people from your neighborhood (i.e. same socioeconomic background, similar interests), and ride shares can happen anywhere geographically.

UberX and Lyft have given millions of Americans more of a comfort level with ride sharing in non-taxis, which I think was the first important step in the process. Columbia does not have the same density as many other cities and the population is somewhat dispersed outside of maybe Northeast and Irmo. Commuter rail would help cut down on traffic in certain areas and guide future dense development, but it is not the end-all solution. Uber is slowly increasing the use of ride sharing, particularly with the introduction of Uber Pool (designed to pick up multiple single or dual passengers on a certain path). Add in the impact of driverless cars and this trend could be transformative. As more people move into the city and the technology becomes seamless, ride sharing will help cities like Columbia cut down on congestion without having to invest tens of millions of tax dollars on infrastructure. This will not eliminate the need for mass transit, but it will help complement efforts to reduce emissions and congestion and maybe even allow the city to convert parking to better uses (i.e. residential, retail, commercial).

The Washington Post published an infographic on long-term transportation plans in other cities. It's definitely worth reading through:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/future-of-transportation/

[Spartan]

3 hours ago, MAJIKMAN said:

I understand what you are saying Spartan. Politicians up this way in Greenville have been in discussions for years about the very same things, light rail, commerter rail between Greenville the airport and Spartanburg, for that matter anything not having to do with roads has been ridiculed. Attitudes are changing though . Like with the proposal by the Greenville county councilman for the pods ideas. Which didn't pan out. In fact it made more people start to think out side the box. Cause most of us know that more and wider roads are the answer. So I'll challenge all my fellow Carolinians to push for anything to get more cars and trucks off the roads. 

IMO, the bigger problem in South Carolina - especially the Upstate, but Columbia is in the same boat - is the lack of attention to roads. They focus on widening roads with poor designs and then not doing any thing to establish a network of streets so that we can avoid the "Altantafication" of the state (aka: gridlock). They're going to widen I-85 at some point... but then what? They'll do the same thing for I-26 and Malfunction Junction (which is absolutely needed) but then what? The second part of the equation is doing something to create more walkable places instead of the same lame sprawl pattern that we know doesn't work (again, because Atlanta has proven it time and time again). Once there is a certain level of density in an area (and it doesn't take much) it can then begin to support transit and eventually rail can be a part of the conversation.

[carolinagarnet]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

IMO, the bigger problem in South Carolina - especially the Upstate, but Columbia is in the same boat - is the lack of attention to roads. They focus on widening roads with poor designs and then not doing any thing to establish a network of streets so that we can avoid the "Altantafication" of the state (aka: gridlock). They're going to widen I-85 at some point... but then what? They'll do the same thing for I-26 and Malfunction Junction (which is absolutely needed) but then what? The second part of the equation is doing something to create more walkable places instead of the same lame sprawl pattern that we know doesn't work (again, because Atlanta has proven it time and time again). Once there is a certain level of density in an area (and it doesn't take much) it can then begin to support transit and eventually rail can be a part of the conversation.

Columbia is doing its part to create walkable neighborhoods and Richland County is allowing it in certain areas (see: Cardinal Newman). My generation (Millennials) is eschewing the suburbs in large part, but as people start to have kids, some will still choose to move out to the suburbs. Lexington County is hungry for growth and from what I've seen, they are not great at directing it. If Lexington continues to grow, it will put added pressure on I-26 and I-20. I agree that expanding the roads (supply) is short-term thinking, the other half of the equation is actual usage (demand). Finding a way to reduce single rider trips is key to reducing gridlock. Releasing a long-term plan transportation plan would help Columbia and Richland County signal to developers where mass transit may eventually be.

[MAJIKMAN]

2 hours ago, Spartan said:

IMO, the bigger problem in South Carolina - especially the Upstate, but Columbia is in the same boat - is the lack of attention to roads. They focus on widening roads with poor designs and then not doing any thing to establish a network of streets so that we can avoid the "Altantafication" of the state (aka: gridlock). They're going to widen I-85 at some point... but then what? They'll do the same thing for I-26 and Malfunction Junction (which is absolutely needed) but then what? The second part of the equation is doing something to create more walkable places instead of the same lame sprawl pattern that we know doesn't work (again, because Atlanta has proven it time and time again). Once there is a certain level of density in an area (and it doesn't take much) it can then begin to support transit and eventually rail can be a part of the conversation.

I lived in Baltimore, where for a long time didn't have to use the interstate and still zipped from one side of town to the other. Same for certain parts of the Hampton Roads area of Va. In which both are far more dense than any North or South Carolina city. They don't have the same issues as some of there southern neighbors because all streets lead to another street. Rarely leading thousands down the same road.

I talked about the unconnected nature of a lot of the areas of city and county of Greenville with a few on the local councils. They know they have work to do. There were streets in and near downtown Greenville that had free flowing traffic. Now closed because a developer wanted a quiet cul de sac street. Those kinds of request are not granted in aready established neighborhoods. But they do sneak in. Aka Verdae. But that's for another forum. 

The cities and counties, well some anyway, want to fix the connectivity issues. But working with the state DOT is just....... Maybe things will change after the reorganization process is done. Fingers crossed.  

[growingup15]

1 hour ago, MAJIKMAN said:

I lived in Baltimore, where for a long time didn't have to use the interstate and still zipped from one side of town to the other. Same for certain parts of the Hampton Roads area of Va. In which both are far more dense than any North or South Carolina city. They don't have the same issues as some of there southern neighbors because all streets lead to another street. Rarely leading thousands down the same road.

I talked about the unconnected nature of a lot of the areas of city and county of Greenville with a few on the local councils. They know they have work to do. There were streets in and near downtown Greenville that had free flowing traffic. Now closed because a developer wanted a quiet cul de sac street. Those kinds of request are not granted in aready established neighborhoods. But they do sneak in. Aka Verdae. But that's for another forum. 

The cities and counties, well some anyway, want to fix the connectivity issues. But working with the state DOT is just....... Maybe things will change after the reorganization process is done. Fingers crossed.  

I knda get what you mean. like they talk about making More pedestrian friendly roads in Columbia but that usually mean 4 lane to 2 lane roads example like Green Street yes it will be more pedestrian friendly but long term when the development gets going either there's a Public transit to move ppl around or its just gonna be crowded trying to funnel thousands of cars down a 2 lane main road everyday.

 

i think theirs places where 2 lane pedestrian roads are needed. but some places if you keep funneling roads to the point traffic gets beyond gridlocked then it will start killing business because of congestion.

[urbanlover568]

Would be fantastic to see Columbia to get a inner-loop. But overall, the city needs to focus on more on revitalizing the CBD. 

[carolinagarnet]

8 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Would be fantastic to see Columbia to get a inner-loop. But overall, the city needs to focus on more on revitalizing the CBD. 

An inner loop highway, like I-277? Most cities are trying to find ways to dismantle them. So many neighborhoods were torn apart when they were originally built, which led to disconnected communities, increased crime, lower property values, etc. San Francisco led the way with Cal 480 and now other cities are starting to follow suit.

[urbanlover568]

Just now, carolinagarnet said:

An inner loop highway, like I-277? Most cities are trying to find ways to dismantle them. So many neighborhoods were torn apart when they were originally built, which led to disconnected communities, increased crime, lower property values, etc. San Francisco led the way with Cal 480 and now other cities are starting to follow suit.

Not really. The inner and outer is what made charlotte the way it is. 

[growingup15]

10 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Would be fantastic to see Columbia to get a inner-loop. But overall, the city needs to focus on more on revitalizing the CBD. 

Interloop as in Rail Transit or Interstate? because I've had talks with SCDOT before and the CMCOG before on that idea and they said that it is possible but challenges is Money and Neighbourhoods it may cause a disturbance to. the first idea was to Connect 277 to 216 but i doubt that will ever be finished or started because of the elmwood ppl and since the state is already spending over a billion on Malfunction Junction alone theres no way they are willing to spend another maybe billion for a Downtown Connector or Loop.

 

but my idea was for it to Follow the Train Tracks elevated through town.

 

Heres some Renderings from back in 2010 and 2011 i created

and heres the idea i had along time ago to Cap off the Railroads turn them into green space and have an Elevated Double Deck highway above it

[growingup15]

Speaking of Interstate improvements Look what i dug up from the Grave

I wonder if the DOT is still going with this place or is it going to change.

 

Also side note I would love to see this plan ad HOT lanes to it. and the Hot lanes should go further than just Malfunction Junction. it should follow 26 back to you get to the 26/77 Interchange.

[carolinagarnet]

12 hours ago, mpretori said:

Not really. The inner and outer is what made charlotte the way it is. 

The inner loop on the southern side has not done as much damage (although the area around the 277/77 interchange is rough) because it is below grade, but the northern side (Brookshire Freeway) completely isolated all of the neighborhoods north of it and created a dangerous, impoverished area that has never recovered. The highway also effectively turned Independence into a highway, which enabled exurban sprawl in Matthews and Union County and killed all of the neighborhoods adjacent to Independence. There is a better justification for 485 since it is not in the middle of the city, but consider the traffic jams between 77 and Providence (maybe even farther). Building the outer loop just encouraged more sprawl. Building highways that disturb or even divide existing neighborhoods is an outdated way of thinking that cities are starting to reject. Even Charlotte has looked at ways to minimize the negative impacts of 277: 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article9118421.html

There is also the idea of capping 277 to reconnect Uptown to South End:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9000260.html

The last thing Columbia needs is a highway that will cut downtown off from the river. If anything, the city should encourage Innovista and other efforts to bridge the divide.

[urbanlover568]

18 minutes ago, carolinagarnet said:

The inner loop on the southern side has not done as much damage (although the area around the 277/77 interchange is rough) because it is below grade, but the northern side (Brookshire Freeway) completely isolated all of the neighborhoods north of it and created a dangerous, impoverished area that has never recovered. The highway also effectively turned Independence into a highway, which enabled exurban sprawl in Matthews and Union County and killed all of the neighborhoods adjacent to Independence. There is a better justification for 485 since it is not in the middle of the city, but consider the traffic jams between 77 and Providence (maybe even farther). Building the outer loop just encouraged more sprawl. Building highways that disturb or even divide existing neighborhoods is an outdated way of thinking that cities are starting to reject. Even Charlotte has looked at ways to minimize the negative impacts of 277: 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article9118421.html

There is also the idea of capping 277 to reconnect Uptown to South End:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9000260.html

The last thing Columbia needs is a highway that will cut downtown off from the river. If anything, the city should encourage Innovista and other efforts to bridge the divide.

Low grade?? I'm pretty sure that 277 is high type and thats the highest grade. I think you need to understand the historical impact of 277 and how charlottes transit evolved over the years to make statements like that. .

 

Also i'm 99% sure the state will never remove any portion of 277. its near impossible to remove any mileage off of a interstate.  

@growingup15 If that happens then bullstreet wont have to be modified. Saves tons of money and headaches. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by mpretori

[growingup15]

6 hours ago, mpretori said:

Low grade?? I'm pretty sure that 277 is high type and thats the highest grade. I think you need to understand the historical impact of 277 and how charlottes transit evolved over the years to make statements like that. .

 

Also i'm 99% sure the state will never remove any portion of 277. its near impossible to remove any mileage off of a interstate.  

@growingup15 If that happens then bullstreet wont have to be modified. Saves tons of money and headaches. 

What do you mean modified?

Also like i shown in this rendering lf The spur or loop through downtown i think that will encourage traffic flow and growth in Columbia. I highly doubt something like that will kill Innovista and i think a Cap over The RR Gap and green space covering it with an elevated Double Decker will draw in more people in Downtown.

 

https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fc1.staticflickr.com%2F3%2F2812%2F8896722170_fcc71bcd0e_b.jpg&key=54b1fe214529c8f51e13944e01f1be87a26be6e6aa87424c59031f54e8da0f7c

[carolinagarnet]

6 hours ago, mpretori said:

Low grade?? I'm pretty sure that 277 is high type and thats the highest grade. I think you need to understand the historical impact of 277 and how charlottes transit evolved over the years to make statements like that. .

 

Also i'm 99% sure the state will never remove any portion of 277. its near impossible to remove any mileage off of a interstate.  

@growingup15 If that happens then bullstreet wont have to be modified. Saves tons of money and headaches. 

BElow grade, which is to say below the street level. The south side of 277 is partially below grade as evidenced by the fact that bridges run over it. This is how the caps could potentially turn that section into a tunnel. I grew up in Charlotte, so I'm pretty familiar with how transit has evolved in the city. 277 cut North Tryon and parallel streets off from Uptown, thereby creating an isolated, struggling neighborhood. The same was true of South End until it became attractive for development again. Perhaps that will happen with North Charlotte, but it will be in spite of 277. I am not saying that NC is planning to remove any sections of 277- that was deemed too expensive/ politically unpopular- but 277 is certainly not a model for economic development. Why on earth would we willingly isolate neighborhoods by constructing a highway through the middle of Columbia? Even building a connector north of Elmwood would kill any potential for growth in that area.

[growingup15]

4 hours ago, carolinagarnet said:

BElow grade, which is to say below the street level. The south side of 277 is partially below grade as evidenced by the fact that bridges run over it. This is how the caps could potentially turn that section into a tunnel. I grew up in Charlotte, so I'm pretty familiar with how transit has evolved in the city. 277 cut North Tryon and parallel streets off from Uptown, thereby creating an isolated, struggling neighborhood. The same was true of South End until it became attractive for development again. Perhaps that will happen with North Charlotte, but it will be in spite of 277. I am not saying that NC is planning to remove any sections of 277- that was deemed too expensive/ politically unpopular- but 277 is certainly not a model for economic development. Why on earth would we willingly isolate neighborhoods by constructing a highway through the middle of Columbia? Even building a connector north of Elmwood would kill any potential for growth in that area.

That seems very old thinking right there. What Columbia is lacking is a full connector in Downtown. For a city is size I'm surprise it haven't happened yet or been considered yet.

 

I really believe a connector through town  elevated with green Space below it will correct neighbourhoods in Columbia 

[mr. chips]

37 minutes ago, growingup15 said:

That seems very old thinking right there. What Columbia is lacking is a full connector in Downtown. For a city is size I'm surprise it haven't happened yet or been considered yet.

 

I really believe a connector through town  elevated with green Space below it will correct neighbourhoods in Columbia 

No, No, No - we don't need more highways, especially downtown. Don't you realize that many cities are actually tearing down the ugly highways that were mistakenly built in the city centers - e.g. Seattle, Boston. Even Greenville tore down a bridge in order to reveal the beautiful waterfall and create a lovely urban park. We need to make the drivers so frustrated that they decide to live downtown, and that the "powers that be"  build mass transit systems to get us around. Say "No" to cars!

[growingup15]

15 minutes ago, mr. chips said:

No, No, No - we don't need more highways, especially downtown. Don't you realize that many cities are actually tearing down the ugly highways that were mistakenly built in the city centers - e.g. Seattle, Boston. Even Greenville tore down a bridge in order to reveal the beautiful waterfall and create a lovely urban park. We need to make the drivers so frustrated that they decide to live downtown, and that the "powers that be"  build mass transit systems to get us around. Say "No" to cars!

You can't convince someone like me whos a car guy. I refuse to give up my car to wait For a train or bus. I'm all For public mass transit but 2 problems with your plan.

1. Rail transit unfortunately ain't gonna happen iin Columbia in about another 15-20 years

 

2. Living downtown ain't cheap. Getting frustrated will just get people to leave. More people would rather have a flowing free way then to wait For Columbia to figure out what they should do next. 

 

So your idea is old school and invalid. 

 

Because it's bad in one city doesn't mean it won't work in another. Also these high ways were built in the 60s and 70s. Now with modern day planning it could work perfectly.