Five Points

[Spartan]

I don't know how variances would apply to situations like this where its already been submitted to council. I suppose it would not apply.

[krazeeboi]

I didn't get the feeling that this would rule out the FPS development. I would have expected the article to explicitly mention that if such were the case.

[Doug L]

I didn't get the feeling that this would rule out the FPS development. I would have expected the article to explicitly mention that if such were the case.

The map accompanying the article in the State showed FPS as specifically being exempted.

[krazeeboi]

^Thanks for the clarification. I didn't see the map.

[BrasilnSC]

City Council will decide today between the two proposed parking garage sites for 5-points. One would be located within the 5 Points South project and the other would be behind the Claussen's Inn. More details at The State.

From the City of Columbia website, here are the actual proposals for each site, including some site plans, and also the evaluation of each proposal done by a 3 member committee.

5 Points Parking Evaluations and Proposals

After reading these proposals and evals, it seems pretty obvious that the parking at FPS is the better choice. I hope that city council can see these facts and make the right decision.

Edited March 5, 2008 by BrasilnSC

[waccamatt]

City Council will decide today between the two proposed parking garage sites for 5-points. One would be located within the 5 Points South project and the other would be behind the Claussen's Inn. More details at The State.

From the City of Columbia website, here are the actual proposals for each site, including some site plans, and also the evaluation of each proposal done by a 3 member committee.

5 Points Parking Evaluations and Proposals

After reading these proposals and evals, it seems pretty obvious that the parking at FPS is the better choice. I hope that city council can see these facts and make the right decision.

I agree; the Claussen's site is "out of sight, out of mind" and people will not park there. The Wales Garden residents who think the FPS plan is "out of character" for Five Points are being unreasonable, imo, and I'm an individual that would tend to side with neighborhood groups over businesses. You have to be reasonable and not squelch good developments.

[vicupstate]

I drove through Five Points for the first time in a couple of years (at least) last weekend. I remembered that the buildings were one and two stories, but in reality the vast majority of the buildings are one story. Putting a six story building in the heart of a single story district will create a very noticeable and significant change in appearance and scale to the whole area. Driving South down Harden from Gervais, for example, the new building will loom over everything.

It will also lead to more such projects. Five Points will lose a lot of it's uniqueness, and start to look like Atlantic Station in Atlanta, or similiar areas of Charlotte. Only then, will what was lost be valued.

The Claussen garage is a good compromise that will bring the Five Points South project into scale with it's surroundings, or at least more so. The people will go where the parking exists.

[krazeeboi]

Like Anne Sinclair said, what good is a cheaper parking structure behind Claussen's Inn when it isn't going to be well-utilized?

I say just get over the height issue and build the FPS project as planned.

[krazeeboi]

Vic, there's really not many other places to build a project of that height in the heart of Five Points.

The height issue is a legitimate one, to be sure. But I think the parking situation justifies the FPS project. You also get a better use of the land out of that parcel. I don't think the Atlantic Station example is comparable at all, as it is nothing close to a historic urban district. It's an all new, start-from-scratch project. As far as Charlotte is concerned, I think Five Points resembles SouthEnd or NoDa--both of which have relatively new taller projects co-existing peacefully with older lowrises.

[Spartan]

Good points all.

I think its a relevant argument that this building is considerably taller than the others in the area. However, its also important to note that this will help the urban environment tremendously. Currently there is a vacant lot, and before that it was an auto mechanic. This new building will offer both parking and street retail while including residences above it. If you look at the architectural renderings, this will not be a dull, unattractive box.

This other garage proposal does not effectively do that. It sounds as though it would offer street retail, but I can't see people using it. Most people just don't park on College Street to access Five Points, whereas the other one offers more parking in the heart of it.

[vicupstate]

Vic, there's really not many other places to build a project of that height in the heart of Five Points.

Who says that ANY building in the heart of Five Points should be that height?

The height issue is a legitimate one, to be sure. But I think the parking situation justifies the FPS project. You also get a better use of the land out of that parcel.

The Claussen site creates MORE spaces, without creating as much new DEMAND.

I don't think the Atlantic Station example is comparable at all, as it is nothing close to a historic urban district. It's an all new, start-from-scratch project.

New, start-from-scratch is exactly what Five points will look like, if new, taller buildings are allowed to replace the old ones. It may be urban and dense, but it won't have the appearance, scale or ambiance of the current Five Points. Bit by bit, building by building is how countless such commercial districts are lost. Main Street, for example.

As far as Charlotte is concerned, I think Five Points resembles SouthEnd or NoDa--both of which have relatively new taller projects co-existing peacefully with older lowrises.

I don't know of ANY buildings in NODA that are six stories. A couple of new ones are four, and are not yet completed. Time will time how they will look when completed. SouthEnd certainly has some, but that area is transforming from a distressed industrial corridor to a mixed use corridor. 5 Points is already a commercial district and has always thrived.

[krazeeboi]

Who says that ANY building in the heart of Five Points should be that height?

You have a point, which I don't deny.

The Claussen site creates MORE spaces, without creating as much new DEMAND.

But the question is, how well utilized will those spaces be? Claussen's Inn is already tucked into a corner, and it's not like it's a popular hotel that draws a lot of people. One of the biggest problems when it comes to parking in urban settings is visibility.

New, start-from-scratch is exactly what Five points will look like, if new, taller buildings are allowed to replace the old ones. It may be urban and dense, but it won't have the appearance, scale or ambiance of the current Five Points. Bit by bit, building by building is how countless such commercial districts are lost. Main Street, for example.

I don't think anyone is proposing that we knock down old commercial buildings to build midrises. As unique of a landmark that Kenny's was, it was also a bit out of place. That's not really the case for anything else in the heart of Five Points, so I don't see such a scenario playing out at all. Any successful urban district has a healthy mix of new and old. FPS is simply part of the new. I see nothing Atlantic Station-esque about that at all.

As far as buildings in NoDa not being six stories, the issue really isn't stories, it's overall height. There is new construction along 36th in NoDa (forget the exact name of the development) which towers over its neighbors a bit, but I don't doubt that it will be urban and blend in in that sense.

Five Points is simply evolving. There's a way to do that without eroding its character; as a matter of fact, I only think that FPS will add to it. It's impossible for every single building in the district to stand forever. There was something on that parcel before Kenny's, and there will be something after FPS.

[waccamatt]

I drove through Five Points for the first time in a couple of years (at least) last weekend. I remembered that the buildings were one and two stories, but in reality the vast majority of the buildings are one story. Putting a six story building in the heart of a single story district will create a very noticeable and significant change in appearance and scale to the whole area. Driving South down Harden from Gervais, for example, the new building will loom over everything.

It will also lead to more such projects. Five Points will lose a lot of it's uniqueness, and start to look like Atlantic Station in Atlanta, or similiar areas of Charlotte. Only then, will what was lost be valued.

The Claussen garage is a good compromise that will bring the Five Points South project into scale with it's surroundings, or at least more so. The people will go where the parking exists.

In my opinion the Claussen's site is too isolated from sight and it would not be fully utilized. Also, there are already 2 midrises on Greene Street just off Harden and a highrise at Harden and Blossom - only a block away from Five Points South. I think as long as taller buildings have full street level retail and fit in with the general architectural spirit of Five Points, the funkiness will not go away. The building being replaced by FPS was not architecturally significant.

[Spartan]

Five Points is nothing like anything in Charlotte. Maybe NoDa, but thats a stretch.

You have a point, which I don't deny.

But the question is, how well utilized will those spaces be? Claussen's Inn is already tucked into a corner, and it's not like it's a popular hotel that draws a lot of people. One of the biggest problems when it comes to parking in urban settings is visibility.

I don't think anyone is proposing that we knock down old commercial buildings to build midrises. As unique of a landmark that Kenny's was, it was also a bit out of place. That's not really the case for anything else in the heart of Five Points, so I don't see such a scenario playing out at all. Any successful urban district has a healthy mix of new and old. FPS is simply part of the new. I see nothing Atlantic Station-esque about that at all.

As far as buildings in NoDa not being six stories, the issue really isn't stories, it's overall height. There is new construction along 36th in NoDa (forget the exact name of the development) which towers over its neighbors a bit, but I don't doubt that it will be urban and blend in in that sense.

Five Points is simply evolving. There's a way to do that without eroding its character; as a matter of fact, I only think that FPS will add to it. It's impossible for every single building in the district to stand forever. There was something on that parcel before Kenny's, and there will be something after FPS.

I won't argue that Five Points isn't evolving, but Kenny's was a huge loss.

Five Points about 3 or 4 years ago was a complete neighborhood center. It had everything you could want... clothing stores, hardware store, groceries, drug store, banks, restaurants, dry cleaners, and the token auto mechanic, and you have other service businesses and offices in closer proximity as well as mixed density and income residential units. IMO its what an ideal neighborhood center should be. Some of the essentials, IMO are starting to go away. Kenny's is gone, Hiller Hardware almost left, or maybe they did (I forget). The other businesses probably wont go anywhere, at least not in function, but in order to be a 'complete' urban neighborhood, you need to have all of these things so that people who live nearby don't have to take all of their business somewhere farther away (there is a major difference between choosing to go else where and being forced to).

Back to FPS, I still think that given the other highrises around Five Points, this thing will not hurt the character of the neighborhood, though we can't argue that it won't change somewhat.

Lets also not forget that aside from this project, the rest of Five Points from Blossom to Gervais has height regulations through the Future Five Master Plan. No building will be able to be a highrise, though presumably some midrise buildings like this one will be allowed further down. Columbia, unlike Charlotte, seems to be ok with keeping its historic centers in tact.

[waccamatt]

I agree with you about the loss of some necessary businesses, it is a shame, but big box retailers have had such a big effect on businesses like Kenny's and Hiller I don't know how they can compete.

[waccamatt]

According to The State, city council gave approval, 6-1 to complete negotiations with the developers of Five Points South so it looks like this project is a go.

The State

[vicupstate]

The other mid-rises are on the periphery of Five Points, this is in the very heart of Five Points, I think that is a crucial difference. The Blossom and Harden building is also the ugliest thing in the neighborhood, it's height only makes it stand out more.

Parking signage needs to be visible, but PARKING does not. Parking SHOULD be as 'invisible' as possible without eliminating it's from the public consciousness altogether. Columbia is a city of locals, not tourists, the locals will learn where the parking is.

Take pictures of Five Points now, and take some when FPS tops out, the difference, especially from certain vantage points, will be striking IMO.

[krazeeboi]

Parking signage needs to be visible, but PARKING does not. Parking SHOULD be as 'invisible' as possible without eliminating it's from the public consciousness altogether.

Perhaps "accessibility" is a better term then "visibility." I think parking being included in FPS does what you describe best, making it "invisible" by including it within a mixed-use structure, but not totally eliminating it from the public consciousness by keeping it easily accessible.

[BrasilnSC]

I don't think FPS is in the very heart of 5-points, but more on the southern edge. When I think of the heart of 5-points, I think the fountain area around Greene and Harden. FPS will not destroy the feel and look of 5-points (it will obviously change it a bit but for the good IMO). And the new Saluda St. fountain will only enhance this project. I see this garage being utilized much much more than the other.

A garage at Claussen's Inn would be a mistake at this point (maybe it'll be more feasible in the future), but right now I don't see too many people parking there. There is free surface parking at the Food Lion / Office Depot shopping center that is only a block from the proposed Claussen garage.

The Future Five Plan will take care of and improve the urban village feel of 5-points.

[Doug L]

I am so grateful that our city council has had the fortitude to put the parking in FPS! This building IMO will add a new and dynamic dimension to the Five Points Village. We NEED to boost the density of population living in Five Points as well as increase the available parking. IMO a 5 or 6 story building will in no way distract from village feel of Five Points; but it will add a punctuation that, right now, is sorely missing. Almost anything is better than open, surface level, suburban style parking lots like that if front of the Food Lion.

It is a shame that so many people are opposed to change just because it is change. There is no reason that our heritage can't be preserved along with looking forward.

[vicupstate]

I am so grateful that our city council has had the fortitude to put the parking in FPS! This building IMO will add a new and dynamic dimension to the Five Points Village. We NEED to boost the density of population living in Five Points as well as increase the available parking. IMO a 5 or 6 story building will in no way distract from village feel of Five Points; but it will add a punctuation that, right now, is sorely missing. Almost anything is better than open, surface level, suburban style parking lots like that if front of the Food Lion.

It is a shame that so many people are opposed to change just because it is change. There is no reason that our heritage can't be preserved along with looking forward.

It's understandable to disagree as to the effect of FPS, but to say that those that are opposed, are opposed merely because they don't want chnage is not correct. I seek APPROPRIATE change, not change that will ruin the original appeal.

Until it is actually completed, no one can say for certain if it will be a solely positive change. I may be making too much of this, it may not be as dramatic as I fear, or it may simply become part of a 'new'. mentally acceptable, landscape. But the danger of a bad irrevocable change is definitely there. If not with FPS, then with projects that follow in it's path.

[JT Boy]

Has someone done a mockup image showing the proposed building in current Five Points setting? That would be nice to see. The rendering was pleasant, but didn't give a sense of how this would look from a couple of blocks away, etc...

[CarolinaSouth]

It's understandable to disagree as to the effect of FPS, but to say that those that are opposed, are opposed merely because they don't want chnage is not correct. I seek APPROPRIATE change, not change that will ruin the original appeal.

Until it is actually completed, no one can say for certain if it will be a solely positive change. I may be making too much of this, it may not be as dramatic as I fear, or it may simply become part of a 'new'. mentally acceptable, landscape. But the danger of a bad irrevocable change is definitely there. If not with FPS, then with projects that follow in it's path.

Okay Vic.... i see what you are trying to argue...but the basis of your arguement has already been addressed by the community members of the 5pts area. They've created the "future 5pts" plan to not allow for such dramatic change widespread. This developer has redesigned this project like 2 times under the direction of neighborhood officials visions. They approved of the original design for the most part and most people don't mind the parking garage. This parking garage is a blessing if it get's built in that location because trying to park in 5pts now is very very difficult. The key point is [like what was mentioned earlier]....that Food Lion surface lot would be a better option than the Garage and it would be a waste of money to place a parking garage so out of the way. You can ask a lot of Columbians if they know where the Clauseen's Inn is located at and they couldn't tell you. This comes down to [for me] the main shops needing parking spaces during the day and the bars needing them at night.

[picture courtesy of http://www.coolumbia.net by Doug Leonhardt. ]

Notice the talk structure behind the fountain and Starbucks building...The FPS structure would site in a valley while this is on a hill and this structure always sticks out more to me than any other building in the area.

Edited March 6, 2008 by CarolinaSouth

[TheCarolinaKing]

Well the King is happ with the pre-approval and looks forward to the addition. Not only will it add new demention to the area, but now he will have somewhere to park when he goes out! BTW Claussens is entirely too far from alot of the main activity. if the garage were there people would still have to walk blocks... and i predict that people will still ride around looking for parks closer to the harden street action!

[krazeeboi]

Also, we all know that Five Points doesn't exactly have the safest reputation around town. A parking structure behind Claussen's Inn wouldn't do anything in terms of making sure people can walk between the garage and their destination safely.