Hartford, The Violence & The Suburbs Views

[ctman987]

So after reading this first sorry I once again became very concerned about the city of Hartford and the support and image it receives from the suburbs as there are quotes from people who havent been to Hartford in years, wont even drive through it and question why there is all this private investment. People from out of the area are being drawn to Hartford and SOME new suburbanites are being drawn back to the city whether it be to live or play or work, etc. and then there are those with this negative image of Hartford and this recent surge in crime doesnt help.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-ctubi...0,361177.column

Next I read this story that was also in yesterdays paper and soon looked down on those negative suburbanites. This article talks about a former insurance exec. who lives in West Hartford who had a very tough childhood and now spends his days helping the children of Hartford succeed. He is not sitting home writing a letter about how he would never go to Hartford because it's dangerous....he's out in Hartford's neighborhoods helping. Why dont these people who wrote those comments in the first article get up and do something instead of complaining.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/northeas...0,6829792.story

[beerbeer]

There are some people who hate cities. They won't come downtown to collect a free bar of gold. What the city needs to do is convince the fence sitters there is more good than bad downtown.

These shooting in the north end are bad. But they won't affect a someone who wants to visit the CCC for a boat show. What do show is that Eddie Perez is worrying about all the wrong things.

[HartfordTycoon]

There are some people who hate cities. They won't come downtown to collect a free bar of gold. What the city needs to do is convince the fence sitters there is more good than bad downtown.

These shooting in the north end are bad. But they won't affect a someone who wants to visit the CCC for a boat show. What do show is that Eddie Perez is worrying about all the wrong things.

Exactly, some people hate cities. Cities are melting pots of many type of people and different backgrounds. That is a more volatile mix than in the suburbs. All large American cities have ghettos, and I personally don't feel like Hartford's is really and truly one of the worst. You need to get the fence sitters, those who have sworn off of Hartford aren't coming back. Forget about them. Poverty needs to be dealt with, but so does economic development and that's why I disagree with those in the North End who resent what's happening downtown. If many of them would raise their kids the right way, developers would invest in our community as well. Not to mention that many sucessful minorities will want to move downtown too. The shootings in Hartford are mostly never random and unless you are in the wrong place trying to do something you shouldn't, suburbanites generally have nothing to fear.

It's also funny that these adults are worried about their safety, when children in Hartford are the ones in danger far too much of the time. None of them sounded to concerned with the well being of the kids. Who are the ones we really need to be worried about trying to help.

[ctman987]

Poverty needs to be dealt with, but so does economic development and that's why I disagree with those in the North End who resent what's happening downtown. If many of them would raise their kids the right way, developers would invest in our community as well. Not to mention that many sucessful minorities will want to move downtown too. The shootings in Hartford are mostly never random and unless you are in the wrong place trying to do something you shouldn't, suburbanites generally have nothing to fear.

Absolutly!!! Many minorities who succeed sadly do not come back an invest in the North End. If they are an investor they are probably investing in downtown, or maybe they have a well paying job at a major corporation downtown or in the suburbs, and they either live maybe downtown or most likely in the Farmington Valley.

Downtown is also very safe and that is where a majority of the places suburbanites who come to the city would go. Downtown is the CCC, HCC, Bushnell, Hartford Stage, TheaterWorks, Capital, Old State House, Wadsworth and downtown is safe so come on down !!!

[redbaron]

Absolutly!!! Many minorities who succeed sadly do not come back an invest in the North End. If they are an investor they are probably investing in downtown, or maybe they have a well paying job at a major corporation downtown or in the suburbs, and they either live maybe downtown or most likely in the Farmington Valley.

Downtown is also very safe and that is where a majority of the places suburbanites who come to the city would go. Downtown is the CCC, HCC, Bushnell, Hartford Stage, TheaterWorks, Capital, Old State House, Wadsworth and downtown is safe so come on down !!!

I agree that downtown very safe.... Being one of those suburbanites that moved into one of the sparkling new apartment buildings I have not once felt unsafe. The crimes are not random; seriously, people visiting the city would have no reason to be in the neighborhoods that the crimes are happening in... It just affects there perception of the city as a whole... I just wished we could find a way to stop the violence in those neighborhoods and not for the sake of improving Hartford's image but for the safety of the majority of the law abiding citizens that live in those neighborhoods...

[ctman987]

I agree we (1) need to get people to realize crime is present in a few crime ridden neighborhoods such as the North End and so there is no reason not to go to the Bushnell downtown or to Braza in the West End (2) need to rid the crime ridden neighborhoods of their crime....we simply cannot just tell people crime is not present in the areas they will visit we need to rid those other areas of their crime.

[HartfordTycoon]

I agree we (1) need to get people to realize crime is present in a few crime ridden neighborhoods such as the North End and so there is no reason not to go to the Bushnell downtown or to Braza in the West End (2) need to rid the crime ridden neighborhoods of their crime....we simply cannot just tell people crime is not present in the areas they will visit we need to rid those other areas of their crime.

I agree. If Hartford was West Hartford, East Hartford, and Hartford the city would be a mid sized U.S. city and would be among the safest on the list. Crime comes from poverty. Poverty in large part results from historical injustice and also lack of education which all to often can be traced to historical injustice. We need to right the wrongs of the past and give kids a decent future, even though their families have had it hard pretty much forever. History needs to be taught accurately in a way that will engage diverse students to learn about the glory and pain of their people's past. They don't need to hear about European history all year and then have a month dedicated to their own. That is only part of the problem, but I think it's significant. We also need to consider options for inner city boarding schools. A concept that I have been toying with. These sort of programs could get inner city kids onto a safe campus envirmonment for the majority of their time, instead of being stuck in the Hood all of the time. There are many potential solutions, we just can't be affraid to explore them and do everything possible. This is a serious issue and peoples lives are at stake.

[damus]

History needs to be taught accurately in a way that will engage diverse students to learn about the glory and pain of their people's past. They don't need to hear about European history all year and then have a month dedicated to their own. That is only part of the problem, but I think it's significant. We also need to consider options for inner city boarding schools. A concept that I have been toying with. These sort of programs could get inner city kids onto a safe campus envirmonment for the majority of their time, instead of being stuck in the Hood all of the time. There are many potential solutions, we just can't be affraid to explore them and do everything possible. This is a serious issue and peoples lives are at stake.

You only learned European history in school? In high school, for example, we spent two years on World History that started from Sumer and Mesopotamia went through the civilizations to the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, Byzantine, carthage, Ancient Chinese and Indian civilizations, native American cultures, the holy roman empire and the era of serfdom, black death, protestant reformation and renaissance, Magna Carta, colonialism in the Americas, and wound up ending around the civil war without finishing the (massive) book. I'm sure I missed something in that list... In the third year, US history (overlapping a tad with the previous). History was only required 3 years, so I took inter-racial history as an elective senior year; I felt it overemphasized african and african american history.

Honestly, I think they mostly try to educate us with the history of what shaped the western world as it is today. This includes the Egyptians and Chinese and all that. They threw in more native american history, I think, just in the name of multiculturalism. We got some culture from them, but for the most part the colonists just decimated their ways of life...

Onto schools.... I would like to see school choice of some sort come along. I think the lack of compeition and complacency of teachers hurts schools, especially the inner city schools that don't pay as well and probably only get a handful of those teachers who work in those places truely for the kids, with the rest presumably underqualified to work in the higher paying schools. Part of the problem is that schools in this country are controlled on a municipality by municipality basis, based on taxes collected. Maybe the solution would be for the state to take it all into a general education fund, and then allow students to go to private schools using up to the tuition figures that the state would put towards a public school.

I know it might hurt the facilities of certain public schools, but maybe public schools should be the last resort. My high school provided a private school education to Norwich and a handful of surrounding towns, but was publicly funded and negotiated with the surrounding towns for how much money to collect. It actually has an endowment that is comparable to some colleges, with notable donors being the Edwin Land (inventor of the Poloroid Camera) and Sidney Frank (importer of Jagermeister and Grey Goose). I have always thought that my first 4 years of school at Catholic school were far superior to what I received in public school between that and high school. NFA (high school) and the catholic school could kick you out if you are troublesome. Public schools cannot.

[HartfordTycoon]

You only learned European history in school? In high school, for example, we spent two years on World History that started from Sumer and Mesopotamia went through the civilizations to the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, Byzantine, carthage, Ancient Chinese and Indian civilizations, native American cultures, the holy roman empire and the era of serfdom, black death, protestant reformation and renaissance, Magna Carta, colonialism in the Americas, and wound up ending around the civil war without finishing the (massive) book. I'm sure I missed something in that list... In the third year, US history (overlapping a tad with the previous). History was only required 3 years, so I took inter-racial history as an elective senior year; I felt it overemphasized african and african american history.

Honestly, I think they mostly try to educate us with the history of what shaped the western world as it is today. This includes the Egyptians and Chinese and all that. They threw in more native american history, I think, just in the name of multiculturalism. We got some culture from them, but for the most part the colonists just decimated their ways of life...

Onto schools.... I would like to see school choice of some sort come along. I think the lack of compeition and complacency of teachers hurts schools, especially the inner city schools that don't pay as well and probably only get a handful of those teachers who work in those places truely for the kids, with the rest presumably underqualified to work in the higher paying schools. Part of the problem is that schools in this country are controlled on a municipality by municipality basis, based on taxes collected. Maybe the solution would be for the state to take it all into a general education fund, and then allow students to go to private schools using up to the tuition figures that the state would put towards a public school.

I know it might hurt the facilities of certain public schools, but maybe public schools should be the last resort. My high school provided a private school education to Norwich and a handful of surrounding towns, but was publicly funded and negotiated with the surrounding towns for how much money to collect. It actually has an endowment that is comparable to some colleges, with notable donors being the Edwin Land (inventor of the Poloroid Camera) and Sidney Frank (importer of Jagermeister and Grey Goose). I have always thought that my first 4 years of school at Catholic school were far superior to what I received in public school between that and high school. NFA (high school) and the catholic school could kick you out if you are troublesome. Public schools cannot.

I actually believe that the Hartford teachers are among the highest paid in the Nation. So I'm not buying it's because they don't get paid enough. It's a hard job, one that I still toy with pursuing, but It's a damn hard job. And I know it. I tend to blame the parents more than the schools. That's why I would suggest some way to get the kids to be more independant from their parents, like boarding schools.

I learned all of those in school. I was in the Classical Magnet Program in Middle and High schools where we studied ancient civilizations in great detail. Let me be more specific, you can't teach American history without teaching all of it. Why then do they relegate Black American history to February, instead of where it would be chronologically accurate as part of American History? We are as much a part of the history of this country as the Natives and Europeans aren't we? Also, specifically for African Americans, we must be taught that we are capable of creating culture and civilization. There are numerous ancient civilizations in Africa that are never taught. Even African history such as Ancient Egyptian history is only starting to become truly accurate. African history is more relevant to African Americans, than European history is and much more important considering that it has been robbed from us and distorted for so long. No mention is ever made of Kemet, Kush, Mali, Songhay, Great Zimbabwe, Nubia, etc. These are all worth teaching to young African Americans and in my opinion everyone should learn that Africans were not savages waiting to be rescued by the European Heroes. So it's not that it's being taught in a racist way as has been the case historically, but that It's not emphasizing what should be emphasized for children who wrongly feel devalued in this society.

[Dan]

But here's the thing that's lost on them: There is very little randomness to the violence in this city. I'm not trying to tempt the universe here, but even when bullets find their way to an innocent victim in Hartford, the victim invariably is living in one of the besieged neighborhoods. Unless a suburbanite is trolling for crack in the wee hours, there's not much risk in visiting the city.

Helen Ubi

[runawayjim]

I actually believe that the Hartford teachers are among the highest paid in the Nation. So I'm not buying it's because they don't get paid enough. It's a hard job, one that I still toy with pursuing, but It's a damn hard job. And I know it. I tend to blame the parents more than the schools. That's why I would suggest some way to get the kids to be more independant from their parents, like boarding schools.

I learned all of those in school. I was in the Classical Magnet Program in Middle and High schools where we studied ancient civilizations in great detail. Let me be more specific, you can't teach American history without teaching all of it. Why then do they relegate Black American history to February, instead of where it would be chronologically accurate as part of American History? We are as much a part of the history of this country as the Natives and Europeans aren't we? Also, specifically for African Americans, we must be taught that we are capable of creating culture and civilization. There are numerous ancient civilizations in Africa that are never taught. Even African history such as Ancient Egyptian history is only starting to become truly accurate. African history is more relevant to African Americans, than European history is and much more important considering that it has been robbed from us and distorted for so long. No mention is ever made of Kemet, Kush, Mali, Songhay, Great Zimbabwe, Nubia, etc. These are all worth teaching to young African Americans and in my opinion everyone should learn that Africans were not savages waiting to be rescued by the European Heroes. So it's not that it's being taught in a racist way as has been the case historically, but that It's not emphasizing what should be emphasized for children who wrongly feel devalued in this society.

what about black american history did you not learn in school? i went to private schools my whole life (there was only 1 black person in my elementary school, she was adopted by a white woman, and my high school class only had between 5 and 10, closer to 5, out of 160 students). i learned about slave trade, conditions on the boats they used to bring africans over, uncle tom's cabin (we acted out an actual slave sale in 8th grade), the rape, the violence, the gospel music, the underground railroad, the famous slaves who fought back (and ultimately died because of it), the emancipation proclamation, the civil war, the beginnings of jazz and the blues, the harlem renaissance, the civil rights of the 60's, the black panthers (who went about it in the wrong way)... what more is there to learn about, unless you didn't learn about all this? we actually went into great detail with the whole slave trade thing and the civil war era stuff. and none of this was in february. it was all just part of our american history class.

why is african history more important to african americans? i'm an italian/polish american. the only history i learned about italy and poland was mussolini and how WWII started during a fight between germany and russia with poland in the middle. oh yeah, it was a catholic school and the pope at the time was polish. we did learn a bit of american catholicism history too. but nothing about my ethnic background (which is what the history of those countries in africa is, ethnic background for people of those various backgrounds). in general, world history teaches the beginnings of western society, which is more important in the long run as it explains the beginnings of the political system from the early days in the roman and greek empires to the current systems (and more importantly the american system because that's where you live). as a whole, that's the more important stuff for any american. the way i look at it, people need to start considering themselves americans first and their ethnic background second. it's not saying they should ignore their past heritage, but school systems do not have the time nor the resources to teach the heritage of every student. teaching about the roman empire and how western society began doesn't alienate the black students beacuse they're americans before they're african. in my opinion, if you don't consider yourself american first, you shoudln't be here. i have strong polish and italian heritage, but i'm american first. it's after that that i care about my family's mafia ties and jew-hiding history from WWII (or as my great grandmother put it, "the old country").

[Frankie811]

On this mornings local news show they said state troopers would be patroling Hartford's troubled neighborhoods where there have been 19 shooting within the last two weeks with 3 fatalities. State legislators have called for a truce untill some dialog can be made.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-ctdri...0,6150235.story?

[beerbeer]

European history in general and the Renaissance in particular are the most important historic reference points for the society in which we live. To not learn about these periods is to be ignorant of the who, what, where and why of our everyday 21st century American life.

That is NOT the problem in Hartford's north end. The problem is the "DON'T BE A SNITCH" culture in many African American communities. The problem is the lack of trust in the police, who, by the way, are the good guys.

[HartfordTycoon]

European history in general and the Renaissance in particular are the most important historic reference points for the society in which we live. To not learn about these periods is to be ignorant of the who, what, where and why of our everyday 21st century American life.

That is NOT the problem in Hartford's north end. The problem is the "DON'T BE A SNITCH" culture in many African American communities. The problem is the lack of trust in the police, who, by the way, are the good guys.

I did not mean to open a can of worms regarding ethnicity and it's role in world views. You are correct when you say a large part of the problem is the attitudes of many in the African American community. However where I disagree is the role that the overemphasis and overglorification of European accomplishment and the underemphasis on other cultures plays into the feeling of devaluement among these populations. We can certainly agree to disagree, but I know there was a certain degree of pride when I learned about great untold civilizations of Africa as an adult in college because it was NEVER mentioned before. A degree of pride that I can't help but feel would have been helpful 10 years earlier at 8 instead of 18. That's really my only point. What do you think the attitude that European history is the MOST IMPORTANT historical perspective has on the decendants of the oppressed people pshycologically, especially when they are not being told the entire truth about who they were prior to European contact? It just feels like one is still living the oppression. Now I agree that in the context of American culture and the world today, European history is essential. European history is also essential in understanding the current level of conflict around the world as much of it is the ill-fated consequences of colonization and exploitation. It's hard for most Europeans and their decendants to understand what it's like because your culture is so glorified.

I'm not saying that the ancient, renaissance and, classical periods of European history are not important, I'm just saying that entrenched inferiority fed by lies and half truths can only be combatted with the entire truth. That's all I am advocating for. Especially when the entire truth could change a large segment's attidude on who they are and where they come from. Why weren't you taught that Ethiopia was the first Christian Nation? Did you know it's the only African nation never to be colonized and that the ruling family up until the 1970's was the royal blood line of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba? Did you know that the Shona people of Zimbabwe constructed a great stone walled city state called Great Zimbabwe in the 12th century and had active trade of goods and knowledge with Portugal? Have you heard of Great Timbuktu or the pyrimids in Ancient Nubia, present day Sudan? If you haven't it's not your fault and I'm not surprised. In my opinion black kids need to be learning this, at least in some detail. As a black person, this is history that I wish I was taught at an earlier age and will be sure to teach my children from birth.

But like I said I did not really want to open up a can of worms. So, I don't really want to dwell on this topic. I just wanted to give you some perspective you may or may not have been exposed to before. These are all real issues in the black community and to dismiss them as not the issue is foolhardy, especially for an outsider. You cannot begin to understand the pshyche of a black man and what is required for it to be healed.

[runawayjim]

I did not mean to open a can of worms regarding ethnicity and it's role in world views. You are correct when you say a large part of the problem is the attitudes of many in the African American community. However where I disagree is the role that the overemphasis and overglorification of European accomplishment and the underemphasis on other cultures plays into the feeling of devaluement among these populations. We can certainly agree to disagree, but I know there was a certain degree of pride when I learned about great untold civilizations of Africa as an adult in college because it was NEVER mentioned before. A degree of pride that I can't help but feel would have been helpful 10 years earlier at 8 instead of 18. That's really my only point. OK so we learn that Europeans did some great stuff, then they colonized and/or enslaved most of the rest of the world. Then they came to their senses. When in reality oppressed and enslaved people were instrumental in playing a role in changing and shaping the world. What do you think that attidude does the the decendants of the oppressed people phycologically, especially when they are not being told the entire truth about who they were prior to European contact. It's hard for most Europeans and their decendants to understand what it's like because your culture is so glorified.

I'm not saying that the ancient, renaissance, classical, period of European history is not important, I'm just saying that entrenched inferiority fed by lies and half truths can only be combatted with the entire truth. That's all I am advocating for. Especially when the entire truth could change a large segment's attidude on who they are and where they come from. Why weren't you taught that Ethiopa was the first Christian Nation? Did you know it's the only African nation never to be colonized and that the ruling family up until the 1970's was the royal blood line of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba? Did you know that the Shona people of Zimbabwe constructed a great stone walled city state in the 12th century and had active trade of goods and knowledge with Portugal? Have you heard of Great Timbuktu or the pyrimids in Ancient Nubia, present day Sudan? If you haven't it's not your fault and I'm not surprised. In my opinion black kids need to be learning this some at least in some detail. As a black person, this is history I wish I was taught at an earlier age and will be sure to teach my children from birth.

to play devil's advocate... weren't there civilizations in africa that sent their people to be slaves? aren't there still civilizations in africa that enslave their own people?

again, i repeat myself... i never learned about the great accomplishments of poland or italy specifically. i learned about western civilization and how it came to be. it goes back to my statement that if you're going to live in america (and i imagine you were born here and there's a pretty good chance your parents were born here), first and foremost, you are an american. it's only after that (which means after learning about american history and how western society came to be) are you anything else. if black people feel devalued in american society because they're with white people, i just don't know what to say. current black people are not slaves. current white people are not slave owners. if you go and decide that you need to teach black people about african history, then you need to teach all white people, hispanic people, asian people, etc, etc about their ethnic background, otherwise you're favoring the blacks. that's all teaching blacks about african history is. and there is absolutely no time or resources in schools to do that. if blacks feel they should learn the history of their background, they should take the time to learn it themselves (which should be up to the parents, not the government, to do so), same as anyone else who wants to learn the history of their background (me included).

[beerbeer]

European cuture is glorified because of their ACCOMPLISHMENTS. The Roman Colosium, the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel, the Spanish Armada, the Magna Carta even the V-2 rocket

And that glorification deserves to continue because the accomplishments of Western Civilzation continue. The US Constitution, the invention of computers, cures for cancer, the moon landing, the internet. African Americans are now part of that tapistry of accomplishment, but that has come from their assimilation into western civilzation.

Yes, it's great to be proud of your beginings and they have a placce in the educational system. But there no need too diminsh the accomplishments of europen civilization to make the heritage of Africa seem grander.

Or to put it more poetically, please, don't blow out other candles to make your candle seem brighter.

[HartfordTycoon]

to play devil's advocate... weren't there civilizations in africa that sent their people to be slaves? aren't there still civilizations in africa that enslave their own people?

again, i repeat myself... i never learned about the great accomplishments of poland or italy specifically. i learned about western civilization and how it came to be. it goes back to my statement that if you're going to live in america (and i imagine you were born here and there's a pretty good chance your parents were born here), first and foremost, you are an american. it's only after that (which means after learning about american history and how western society came to be) are you anything else. if black people feel devalued in american society because they're with white people, i just don't know what to say. current black people are not slaves. current white people are not slave owners. if you go and decide that you need to teach black people about african history, then you need to teach all white people, hispanic people, asian people, etc, etc about their ethnic background, otherwise you're favoring the blacks. that's all teaching blacks about african history is. and there is absolutely no time or resources in schools to do that. if blacks feel they should learn the history of their background, they should take the time to learn it themselves (which should be up to the parents, not the government, to do so), same as anyone else who wants to learn the history of their background (me included).

Yes, Ghana as a kingdom gained great wealth from participating in the slave trade. There where also others, I am not attempting to villify Europeans, what happened historically happened. Was Poland a great civilization? Was it an ancient civilization that contributed to early human civilization? If so, I need to learn some more. I'm not saying every group of people or region in Africa is as historically significant as the rest. I do know that there where gigantic structures in parts of Africa like Mali, Nubia, Kush, and Axum when there was practically nothing in Poland. That is not a slight, merely historical perspective you may not have had. I don't even know what part of Africa my ancestors come from, It's propably many parts so I can't directly claim any one African culture. I'm speaking about blacks because I'm black. Hispanics are woefully ignorant of their own past and that needs to be corrected as well. Asian history exists more of an isolated state than the rest of world, but I would like to learn more. So, I'm not favoring anybody. I am merely giving MY personal perspective. Which pertains mainly to blacks, since I'm black.

Or to put it more poetically, please, don't blow out other candles to make your candle seem brighter.

Again, we can agree to disagree, but that's exactly what Europeans have been doing since their age of conquest. For example, during colonization workers at the museums in colonial Rhodesia (present day Zimbabwe) were not even allowed to acknowledge that blacks had built the great ruins of Great Zimbabwe. That's just one example of the systematic surpression of historical facts to make African history seem completely devoid of accomplishment and somehow place blacks as sub human in nature. I'm not advocating abandoning European history or not teaching it to young minorities. I am advocated painting a more historically accurate portrayal of their ancestors so they can understand where THEY come from.

[runawayjim]

Yes, Ghana as a kingdom gained great wealth from participating in the slave trade. There where also others, I am not attempting to villify Europeans, what happened historically happened. Was Poland a great civilization? Was it an ancient civilization that contributed to early human civilization? If so, I need to learn some more. I'm not saying every group of people or region in Africa is as historically significant as the rest. I do know that there where gigantic structures in parts of Africa like Mali, Nubia, Kush, and Axum when there was practically nothing in Poland. That is not a slight, merely historical perspective you may not have had. I don't even know what part of Africa my ancestors come from, It's propably many parts so I can't directly claim any one African culture. I'm speaking about blacks because I'm black. Hispanics are woefully ignorant of their own past and that needs to be corrected as well. Asian history exists more of an isolated state than the rest of world, but I would like to learn more. So, I'm not favoring anybody. I am merely giving MY personal perspective. Which pertains mainly to blacks, since I'm black.

Again, we can agree to disagree, but that's exactly what Europeans have been doing since their age of conquest.

poland may not have been a great ancient civilization, but what has africa contributed to modern society that is not taught in schools? history in elementary and high school isn't to teach about every civilization that existed, but rather about how modern society came to be. if a civilization didn't contribute much, it's not worth talking about. black american heritage is taught in american schools. my italian history is taught as the roman empire (considered one of the greatest in ancient history). but nothing is taught of what happened to italy after that except a brief blurb about mussolini during WWII.

you certainly seem like you a favoring black history (which is what you said you are doing). no one should be favored. whites are not even favored. they're taught about the same things blacks are... how modern society came to be. college is the place to expand on that knowledge, but every AMERICAN should have a strong grasp of AMERICAN history. that's really what it comes down to. frankly, i'm not interested in african history, or even polish or italian history. i'm an american.

[HartfordTycoon]

poland may not have been a great ancient civilization, but what has africa contributed to modern society that is not taught in schools? history in elementary and high school isn't to teach about every civilization that existed, but rather about how modern society came to be. if a civilization didn't contribute much, it's not worth talking about. black american heritage is taught in american schools. my italian history is taught as the roman empire (considered one of the greatest in ancient history). but nothing is taught of what happened to italy after that except a brief blurb about mussolini during WWII.

you certainly seem like you a favoring black history (which is what you said you are doing). no one should be favored. whites are not even favored. they're taught about the same things blacks are... how modern society came to be. college is the place to expand on that knowledge, but every AMERICAN should have a strong grasp of AMERICAN history. that's really what it comes down to. frankly, i'm not interested in african history, or even polish or italian history. i'm an american.

The history of my people in this country is one primarily of servitude, captivity, and poverty. It helps to know there was something before all that. You guys might think I'm crazy, but I'm not. Maybe if you really absorb what I'm saying you will learn some things about black people and what many of us yearn for in a better perspective of who we are and where we come from. Really, I'm pretty much done. This is how I feel personally, and I never asked anyone to agree. Just understand that many blacks feel a lot like i do. That may help you understand us and it may not. I'm just sharing.

[runawayjim]

The history of my people in this country is one primarily of servitude, captivity, and poverty. It helps to know there was something before all that. You guys might think I'm crazy, but I'm not. Maybe if you really absorb what I'm saying you will learn some things about black people and what many of us yearn for in a better perspective of who we are and where we come from.

do all germans think they're nazi's? do all jews feel disenfranchised because of the holocaust? the jews in this country seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

if you yearn for a better perspective of who you are and where you come from, it's up to you to teach that to yourself. the school systems do not have the resources to specifically teach one group of students about their background in much depth. if you actually look at american history, you also learn about the black americans who stood up for their rights... the rosa park's and MLK's. you'll learn about the underground railroad and the whites who helped move blacks from the south to the north to be free. apparently you missed those lessons. i learned about it all. that's important to american history. does it not help to know that there was something after all that? what percentage of blacks in the country are below the poverty line? is it much greater than the percentage of whites? i'm honestly asking because i really don't know.

[damus]

poland may not have been a great ancient civilization, but what has africa contributed to modern society that is not taught in schools?

Poland has been a benevolent civilization in its time in history. During the Spanish Inquisition, Poland was pretty much the only country that welcomed the Jews who fled... I'm Irish and Polish and all I ever learn about my "homelands" are "Germany invades Poland" and the potato famine. History class doesn't get into the injustices my acestors, mainly the Irish, faced. They get into what happened to the Japanese and blacks. In that elective "inter racial history" class they got into the Japanese, Chinese and Native American abuses, but focued mainly (about 80-90% I'd say) on the blacks' experience. I'd put the Irish experience as among the worst in American history...

Poland has a great history and was once one of the richest countries in Europe, but was torn apart by Napolean's wars, the World Wars, and Communist occupation.

[HartfordTycoon]

And that glorification deserves to continue because the accomplishments of Western Civilzation continue. The US Constitution, the invention of computers, cures for cancer, the moon landing, the internet. African Americans are now part of that tapistry of accomplishment, but that has come from their assimilation into western civilzation.

True, and a black man Dr. Mark Dean, Computer Scientist & Pioneer owns 3 of the original 9 patents on the PC for IBM. He's credited as the primary inventor of the PC and still works for IBM as a Vice President today. A little know peice of American history. I'm really not trying to be fecesious, but you set me up for the PC one.

Poland has been a benevolent civilization in its time in history. During the Spanish Inquisition, Poland was pretty much the only country that welcomed the Jews who fled... I'm Irish and Polish and all I ever learn about my "homelands" are "Germany invades Poland" and the potato famine. History class doesn't get into the injustices my acestors, mainly the Irish, faced. They get into what happened to the Japanese and blacks. In that elective "inter racial history" class they got into the Japanese, Chinese and Native American abuses, but focued mainly (about 80-90% I'd say) on the blacks' experience. I'd put the Irish experience as among the worst in American history...

Poland has a great history and was once one of the richest countries in Europe, but was torn apart by Napolean's wars, the World Wars, and Communist occupation.

Please educate me on how the Irish experience can be compared to the black one. I know you had it tough as an immigrant group for a generation or two. How does that compare to hundreds of years of slavery and oppression?

[HartfordTycoon]

do all germans think they're nazi's? do all jews feel disenfranchised because of the holocaust? the jews in this country seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

if you yearn for a better perspective of who you are and where you come from, it's up to you to teach that to yourself. the school systems do not have the resources to specifically teach one group of students about their background in much depth. if you actually look at american history, you also learn about the black americans who stood up for their rights... the rosa park's and MLK's. you'll learn about the underground railroad and the whites who helped move blacks from the south to the north to be free. apparently you missed those lessons. i learned about it all. that's important to american history. does it not help to know that there was something after all that? what percentage of blacks in the country are below the poverty line? is it much greater than the percentage of whites? i'm honestly asking because i really don't know.

I did not miss that. That's basic. Have you seriously studied reconstruction? Did you know about Black Wall Street? Did you also know that slave rebellions were routine? Have you seen the pictures of the lynchings and slave markets? Did you know that the civil war may very well have been lost without us helping the North?

[runawayjim]

Please educate me on how the Irish experience can be compared to the black one. I know you had it tough as an immigrant group for a generation or two. How does that compare to hundreds of years of slavery and oppression?

most immigrant groups were oppressed when they first arrived. the irish were sort of forced into a sort of slavery to work on the railroads when they first were built, much like the chinese on the west coast. it wasn't hundreds of years, but blacks have also been "free" for well over 100 years. they've been oppressed (mostly in the southern states) since then, but i rarely hear about blacks who are standing up for themselves and really trying to make it. instead you hear about reparations for slavery (the lunacy of people who weren't slaves asking people who didn't keep slaves for money). the irish bounced back from their oppression, so can the blacks.

[damus]

Please educate me on how the Irish experience can be compared to the black one. I know you had it tough as an immigrant group for a generation or two. How does that compare to hundreds of years of slavery and oppression?

I was only saying that the "interracial history" class was skewered heavily towards 100% black history. Why should an Interracial History class bring up injustices in every immigrant group except for the white catholic ones?

http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/p...h_Sentiment.htm

Irish people were concentrated at the lowest rungs of the employment ladder, often in jobs considered too unsafe for black slaves to carry out because the loss of a slave was an out of pocket expense for the owner. Subsequently, Irish employment was often restricted to the docks and other areas involving a high risk of injury. Irish men were locked in employment as unskilled laborers while women were employed as domestic servants. Their low level jobs and salaries created a vicious circle of under-education and poor employment.

The Know Nothing party rose to prominence at the zenith of Boston