Hartford, The Violence & The Suburbs Views

[runawayjim]

I did not miss that. That's basic. Have you seriously studied reconstruction? Did you know about Black Wall Street? Did you also know that slave rebellions were routine? Have you seen the pictures of the lynchings and slave markets? Did you know that the civil war may very well have been lost without us helping the North?

yes, that's all stuff i learned in school.

[HartfordTycoon]

do all germans think they're nazi's? do all jews feel disenfranchised because of the holocaust? the jews in this country seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

if you yearn for a better perspective of who you are and where you come from, it's up to you to teach that to yourself. the school systems do not have the resources to specifically teach one group of students about their background in much depth. if you actually look at american history, you also learn about the black americans who stood up for their rights... the rosa park's and MLK's. you'll learn about the underground railroad and the whites who helped move blacks from the south to the north to be free. apparently you missed those lessons. i learned about it all. that's important to american history. does it not help to know that there was something after all that? what percentage of blacks in the country are below the poverty line? is it much greater than the percentage of whites? i'm honestly asking because i really don't know.

It's much greater. The median wealth of blacks is 1/8 that of whites and the poverty rate is 22.5% for blacks and 8.2% for whites. Pretty big difference. I wrote my senior thesis on Disparities in Intergenerational Wealth Transfer Among Whites and Blacks. A very eye opening topic. Many whites families still have assets derived from a time in which we were property and theoretically could be directly derived from the ancestors of living persons today. It's messed up and makes you want reparations. I don't really agree with reparations due to the difficulty involved in assertaining who desererves what. I would make the case that large corporations in theory that benefitted from slavery should have to repay the descendants, but slavely was legal at the time so there's no real legal basis for such claims.

Government Press Release on Poverty

[runawayjim]

Even the stereotypes from those days exist today, whereas people who perpetuate black stereotypes are deemed racist by society. On the topic of stereotypes, the Polish "stupid" stereotype pisses me off to no end. Some of the greatest minds in the history of man were Poles or of Polish decent. Copernicus and comes to mind..

don't forget marie curie... her husband was french, she was polish.

[HartfordTycoon]

most immigrant groups were oppressed when they first arrived. the irish were sort of forced into a sort of slavery to work on the railroads when they first were built, much like the chinese on the west coast. it wasn't hundreds of years, but blacks have also been "free" for well over 100 years. they've been oppressed (mostly in the southern states) since then, but i rarely hear about blacks who are standing up for themselves and really trying to make it. instead you hear about reparations for slavery (the lunacy of people who weren't slaves asking people who didn't keep slaves for money). the irish bounced back from their oppression, so can the blacks.

I'm not saying we can't. I know for a fact we can. However it seems asinine to assume the length of time of oppression won't affect the length of time it takes to recover.

Even the stereotypes from those days exist today, whereas people who perpetuate black stereotypes are deemed racist by society. On the topic of stereotypes, the Polish "stupid" stereotype pisses me off to no end. Some of the greatest minds in the history of man were Poles or of Polish decent. Copernicus and comes to mind..

You'll never hear me say that stereotypes shouldn't bother you. They absolutely should and it shows how intollerant America has been for most of it's existence.

[runawayjim]

I'm not saying we can't. I know for a fact we can. However it seems asinine to assume the length of time of oppression won't affect the length of time it takes to recover.

You'll never hear me say that stereotypes shouldn't bother you. They absolutely should and it shows how intollerant America has been for most of it's existence.

now let's bring this back to the topic a hand... what does this have to do with violence? the violence in the inner city seems to be a regression rather than moving forward.

and i do agree that black oppression was more recent than irish, however, there is currently no oppression. in fact, with affirmative action, once can argue that it's the other way now.

and this is where it gets shaky... instead of looking for handouts (welfare, etc), why are more of these people not seeking employment (legal employment) and trying to make something of themselves with what they have available to them?

[HartfordTycoon]

now let's bring this back to the topic a hand... what does this have to do with violence? the violence in the inner city seems to be a regression rather than moving forward.

and i do agree that black oppression was more recent than irish, however, there is currently no oppression. in fact, with affirmative action, once can argue that it's the other way now.

and this is where it gets shaky... instead of looking for handouts (welfare, etc), why are more of these people not seeking employment (legal employment) and trying to make something of themselves with what they have available to them?

That's an overly simplistic view. I can ask why people aren't hiring them or why there aren't too many options for work study for city kids at these huge corporations we have in Hartford? There's no blue collar work. Unions are racist, beleive it or not. A man can't support a family on minimum wage and can earn way more money on the street. It's a matter of economics. Plain and simple. A higher proportion of us are born into poverty thus a higher proportion will remain in poverty. However, don't think we are regressing. That's the mistake people make and one that gets me very angry. Blacks are doing better now in America than ever before. There are more black college graduates than ever before and more black rich and middle class people. Our poverty rate is the lowest it's ever been and the black comission of homicide rate has been cut in half since 1990. These are all facts, you can look them up. This is not the picture the media paints or the one young black men are painting with hip hop. That's another thing that has me pretty pissed.

[runawayjim]

You can't discount what Affirmative Action and other programs have helped accomplish. It's pretty amazing and neccessary. It's one of few government programs with a measurable positive outcome. At least for minorities and women. Things are more competive now for white men then ever before. You don't expect that to bother me though do you?

do you believe that it's right for colleges to pass over a more qualified white student because they need a certain amount of minorities? if you don't believe this happens, you're fooling yourself.

i have no problem that things are more competitive for whites.

[beerbeer]

I still maintain the "DON'T SNITCH" culture is the reason for the escalation lawlessness in the inner city.

[runawayjim]

I still maintain the "DON'T SNITCH" culture is the reason for the escalation lawlessness in the inner city.

that's a HUGE part of it. they need more community based programs. there was a successful one in boston that saw a major decrease in youth violence.

[HartfordTycoon]

do you believe that it's right for colleges to pass over a more qualified white student because they need a certain amount of minorities? if you don't believe this happens, you're fooling yourself.

i have no problem that things are more competitive for whites.

I really really really don't want to answer this. But I will anyway against my better judgement. I do think that it's OK to an extent, when you consider that the black person may have been unequally prepared due to a legacy of oppression and discrimination. Most of these institutions would not even accept 1 black student up until the 50's and 60's. 2 wrongs do not make a right, but imagine how many qualified blacks never even had a shot and died without ever getting one. The least America can do is make things a little bit easier for the children of that legacy. So I do think it's OK in that regard.

On a personal level, I see where it can be unfair to some white students and I feel badly for them. I still feel it's a neccessary evil in order to incorporate us into this society which for so long had locked us out completely.

[HartfordTycoon]

I still maintain the "DON'T SNITCH" culture is the reason for the escalation lawlessness in the inner city.

That's a part of it, but there has been no escalation. Like I said before, crime is down since the late 80's and early 90's. That's before stop snitching existed. Also, many blacks are old enough to remember when the cops were the bad guys for us. I've heard old ladies say they won't ever talk to the cops. That is no doubt part of the legacy of the brutality of America vs. blacks. Not saying it's right, but that's a huge part of why blacks don't care for the police.

[damus]

I think a lot of the nonsense that has happened would have been greatly reduced if Martin Luther King was still around. I think he really had a sense of principle about things, and people listened to him. I don't think the "black leaders" of today are any good, they all have seem to have some sort of political agenda that goes beyond "equality for all". I think they drag up the "40 acres and a mule" type stuff that gets people riled up too much rather than focus on what to do from where they are, which is not too bad a position considering where they were even 40 years ago. Bill Cosby was right, it's too bad he's not really getting listened to.

[HartfordTycoon]

I think a lot of the nonsense that has happened would have been greatly reduced if Martin Luther King was still around. I think he really had a sense of principle about things, and people listened to him. I don't think the "black leaders" of today are any good, they all have seem to have some sort of political agenda that goes beyond "equality for all". I think they drag up the "40 acres and a mule" type stuff that gets people riled up too much rather than focus on what to do from where they are, which is not too bad a position considering where they were even 40 years ago. Bill Cosby was right, it's too bad he's not really getting listened to.

That's a blanket statement and what exactly is a "black leader?" There are many competing schools of thought within the black community right now so there really are no clear leaders. The closest thing to leaders are high powered blacks and their views vary widely. From Condi Rice and Colin Powell to Barrack Obama and Russell Simmons. All are high profile African Americans. When you talk about religious leaders you have the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton, however I would not say they have a large amount of influence in the black community. The whole notion that there can even a be a black leader to unify and lift up the race in 2006 is kind of preposterous. During the civil rights movement, we had an enemy with a face. That enemy was much of white America and it was an easy target to mobilize against given the conditions most blacks were living in. In 2006 blacks have many different views on everything reflecting a diversification of the economic and class structure within the race. Due to this, I find it highly improbable that a new MLK type will ever be seen. Cosby is getting listened to, we are all listening. We just don't all agree, and theres no problem with that. Cosby is painting the so called hip hop generation with a broad brush, which is his mistake. I'm proud of hip hop, personally. I think the direction needs to be re-focused, but nonetheless creating such a cultural force is nothing to be ashamed of.

America has a problem. The black family structure broke down at the same time as the white family structure. Blacks were just more susceptible to the negative effects of this due to our already fragile place in the society. Rampant unemployment following Veitnam and the introduction of crack cocaine into the inncer cities are the primary factors for the decline of the family structure and the resulting loss of family values within the black community. Every cause has an effect. These bad things don't just happen to blacks for no reason.

[damus]

That's a blanket statement and what exactly is a "black leader?"

When I think of a "black leader" I think of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and the NAACP. Louis Farakkan is a nut, but I don't know how many people listen to him. I can see how that can be seen as a blanket statement, but these people are who I perceive to have the most influence. You can see leaders like Jackson or Sharpton at many protests standing next to people from communist and "free Palestine" extremist groups.

[HartfordTycoon]

When I think of a "black leader" I think of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and the NAACP. Louis Farakkan is a nut, but I don't know how many people listen to him. I can see how that can be seen as a blanket statement, but these people are who I perceive to have the most influence. You can see leaders like Jackson or Sharpton at many protests standing next to people from communist and "free Palestine" extremist groups.

OK, but remember that American society is what deemed these people to be the primary black leaders. This is who they identify as the leaders. The fact that they weild very little influence in the community is a testament that they are not black leaders. They are merely political leaders, and not just for blacks but for people who buy into their ideas. They are highly repsected though and I respect them and agree with a lot of what they say. There are however many leaders who are black and that does not make them "black leaders."

PS The Arabs did get royaly screwed in that whole Isreal deal. That's the problem with the European powers historically, they put nations where they want to with very little regard to the "natives."

[runawayjim]

PS The Arabs did get royaly screwed in that whole Isreal deal. That's the problem with the European powers historically, they put nations where they want to with very little regard to the "natives."

judaism and even christianity (a fairly new religion) existed before islam (an even newer religion). need i say more?

[HartfordTycoon]

judaism and even christianity (a fairly new religion) existed before islam (an even newer religion). need i say more?

I'm not talking about religion. There where Arab Christians, Jews, and Muslims living in Jeruselum and the surrounding areas for centuries co-existing peacefully until the European powers and the U.S. decided to establish the Jewish state. They even got along OK right after WWI which is when Jews first began to move to Jeruselem from Europe. There was no Jewish state though, it was a british colony resulting from the break up of the Islamic Ottoman Turkish Empire following the war. Prior to the establishment of the state there was no open ended invitation to every Jew on earth. That is what has made them have to force more and more natives out to let in a whole new group of people with almost no connection the middle east. There are Isrealis and Jews who are also troubled by this and don't want to build anymore settlements.

Now we are really off topic though. Maybe we need to move this stuff.

[Luca Brasi]

The problem with the violence in Hartford is that no one knows anything and no one wants to say anything. Everyone wants to settle their own vendettas themselves or simply look the other way because its easier not to get involved.

You can't tell me that no one knows who is responsible for these 19 shootings. Residents in these areas are rewarding anti-social behavior and protecting the element that destroys their neighborhoods.

[HartfordTycoon]

The problem with the violence in Hartford is that no one knows anything and no one wants to say anything. Everyone wants to settle their own vendettas themselves or simply look the other way because its easier not to get involved.

You can't tell me that no one knows who is responsible for these 19 shootings. Residents in these areas are rewarding anti-social behavior and protecting the element that destroys their neighborhoods.

That is true. When it comes to getting the crimes solved, you need to let the police do their job. They can't do that job if nobody tells them anything. You do have to remember that talking to the cops can be dangerous though, and these people do have to live there. I mean who wants to go into witness protection over some senseless shooting that doesn't even involve you?

[GHartford]

"and i do agree that black oppression was more recent than irish, however, there is currently no oppression. in fact, with affirmative action, once can argue that it's the other way now.

and this is where it gets shaky... instead of looking for handouts (welfare, etc), why are more of these people not seeking employment (legal employment) and trying to make something of themselves with what they have available to them?"

The ignorance of this statement is palpable. Personal responsibility is most certainly part of the solution. But ignoring the societal problems which contribute to the economic and social depression of poor, minority neighborhoods is not. Thinking of others as "these people" is a dangerous proposition. "These people" are just like you, but might grow up in neighborhoods where what is "available to them" as you say, might not be much. The idea that people who grow up in "ghetto" neighborhoods somehow are on the same playing field as those who grow up in privileged environments is preposterous. It is most certainly possible for "these people" to make something of themselves. No doubt. But to expect it, without looking carefully at some of the root causes of poverty like, lack of jobs, institutional racism, embarrassing schools, etc. is unfair.

[runawayjim]

"and i do agree that black oppression was more recent than irish, however, there is currently no oppression. in fact, with affirmative action, once can argue that it's the other way now.

and this is where it gets shaky... instead of looking for handouts (welfare, etc), why are more of these people not seeking employment (legal employment) and trying to make something of themselves with what they have available to them?"

The ignorance of this statement is palpable. Personal responsibility is most certainly part of the solution. But ignoring the societal problems which contribute to the economic and social depression of poor, minority neighborhoods is not. Thinking of others as "these people" is a dangerous proposition. "These people" are just like you, but might grow up in neighborhoods where what is "available to them" as you say, might not be much. The idea that people who grow up in "ghetto" neighborhoods somehow are on the same playing field as those who grow up in privileged environments is preposterous. It is most certainly possible for "these people" to make something of themselves. No doubt. But to expect it, without looking carefully at some of the root causes of poverty like, lack of jobs, institutional racism, embarrassing schools, etc. is unfair.

by "these people" i was cutting out words, not thinking of them as less than myself. it's easier than writing poor, minorities, etc etc.

mcdonalds, walmart, grocery stores, etc are always hiring. if they don't hire based on race or looks, then that's a different problem. but my guess is many of the people in these poor neighborhoods haven't tried employment services (temp agencies, etc) or any of these common places of employment.

[HartfordTycoon]

by "these people" i was cutting out words, not thinking of them as less than myself. it's easier than writing poor, minorities, etc etc.

mcdonalds, walmart, grocery stores, etc are always hiring. if they don't hire based on race or looks, then that's a different problem. but my guess is many of the people in these poor neighborhoods haven't tried employment services (temp agencies, etc) or any of these common places of employment.

In my life experience I can tell you that this is not true. Most people have tried everything possibly imaginable to find a job and look in places you would never consider. To be told no over and over again gets frustrating. Most people that I know now in their early 20's always worked throughout high school, often to put food on the table. Many I know took off time from being employed full time to start college. The problem is when you don't exactly finish, don't fit the profile of what they are looking for, and haven't worked in a while. No one will hire you and before you know it that 1 year of unemployement turns into 2 and then 3. Understand that these people can't go home and mooch off of Mom and Dad until something works out, because Dad is nowhere to be found and they were the one paying Mom's bills. By then most have been arrested for once again doing what it takes to put food on the table. Most drug dealers are not violent, rather regular people just like me in my corporate job or you. They hate any attention being on them to tell you the truth. And now these non-violent drug offenders won't ever be able to get a job due to a felony conviction. It all happens way easier and faster than people from "good" and upper middle class neighborhoods would understand. And then at 25 your life is over. You've gotten to the pinnacle of what it's going to be. And now what?

I think when you think about poor people it's better not to think about it as "I would be this way if I was poor" as if you would be a different, stronger person somehow magically. Think about you. The way you are now, except poor, black, and in the ghetto. I sure most of you would not see an easy or even probable way out of the situation.

[Jerry2]

I just got done reading this topic and I wanted to chime in so bad, but the Utopia thread just tired me out.

[HartfordTycoon]

I just got done reading this topic and I wanted to chime in so bad, but the Utopia thread just tired me out.

Hey, I know you're not too tired for a rousing debate.

Seriously, I think this is constructive. I, for one, find your guys views very very eye opening. I really didn't even consider that people actually think how some of you guys do before I started posting here.

[Jerry2]

To sum it all up, I agree with Luca. That's it. However, all the violence or peace in this world is not going to change the image that a lot of people have about being in the city. If I were the mayor, I'd be less concerned with the unions and more concerned with the media that portrays the city in a negative light. While his intentions( with the unions) are good, he is hurting the business image of the city. That's #1. Secondly, he is not actively pursuing a better relationship with the media or defending his city in his own right. Sorry, I'm used to Buddy who would have killed anybody( literally) if they said anything bad about the city. Mayor Perez seems( from reading here) to be someone who really is not in a position to carry the city into the next term. I don't profess to know him or his politics, but from reading here, he's more interested in protecting the social class that put him into office. He wants to be perceived as a minority leader that cares for the citizens of his city. While that may get him elected in a majority-minority city, it does next-to-nothing for the future of a city. The crime in Hartford is above-average, but I really don't find it anymore dangerous than where I live or any other city for that matter. Crime would gradually go down if the population went up. I've always said that Hartford city proper needs to attract more residents. Why should that be so difficult with a good business climate and many other amenities.?

It's because mayors and elected officials have kept the city as sort of a haven for the social ills for society. Ae there homeless shelters, methadone clinics,halfway houses, etc. in Farmington, Winsor, or even Glastonbury? I would guess NO, but somebody else would be more equipped to answer that than me. These towns would rather send their " social vagrants" to Hartford because that's what it's been associated with for a long time. ....and then you have people like Mayor Perez who "pretend" to care for the good of the city by reaching out to all its residents as if he were Mother Teresa.....The city needs more of a mix of incomes,race, and social class. It can not be perceived as a social service dumping ground for the state of CT to succeed...and when you don't have that type of mix....crime persists, negative views persist, and progression becomes a distant dream.....Vote him out of office!