Big Box Retailers in the Triangle... bad news?

[Tayfromcarolina]

Check out todays article at the News and Observer >>>6/15/05 issue

KNIGHTDALE -- Developers are proposing about 60 acres of shopping, a hotel and approximately 1,000 homes and apartments for Knightdale.

The sprawling development would cover 306 acres along Interstate 540 where it will connect with U.S. 64.

Wakefield Associates President Rick Rowe expects to break ground in coming weeks for the Midway shopping center. Retailers who have signed on include Target and Home Depot as anchors as well as Ross Dress for Less, Bed Bath & Beyond, Michaels, Office Max and Petco. Applebee's, Johnny Carino's and Lonestar Steakhouse will occupy outparcels, and Kimco's Web site shows a Chick-Fil-A as well.

I can't believe development is coming so quickly to that area. The intersection dosen't even open till next fall. Target is adding yet another store to the triangle which will brings our total up to 13 (5 supertargets and 1 being a Greatland). They must see tons of potential in the area.

Word on the street is that a regional mall may open in Knightdale or in Garner near the White oak area in the next few years.

[orulz]

As the article points out, any development at I-540 and anywhere is sprawl.

Think about it. 306 acres of huge box development (the term 'big box' doesn't quite cut it here). That's absolutely hideous! In my opinion, the only place where I-540 has any justification at all is between I-40 and US70. Everywhere else, all it has done is encouraged sprawl. There are an unbelievably huge number of enormous lots still undeveloped within the I-540 loop, but the starter home, mcmansion, and big box developers are saying "screw that, let's go OUTSIDE the outer outer beltline anyway!" This is why I wish I-540 didn't exist.

[JunktionFET]

I-540 is an exercise in lousy planning. I remember reading an article about it in the N&O around 2002. Representatives from Wake County talked about how they wanted a million people within 10 years or something, and they cited I-540 as one of the vehicles to help make this happen.

Wake County certainly has more than ample space for a million people, but why keep pushing out when there is more to do in the core areas? I guess it comes down to cheap land and more of the same.

[Tayfromcarolina]

I think that I-540 is a great project. I live in North East Raleigh past Triangle Towne Center, and on a recent trip to the airport it only took me 15 minutes. vs. what would have been a 30+ minute drive if the highway wasnt there. It serves the communities in which i crosses well from What I can tell, and if one is trying to bypass Raleigh it will be appreciated as it crosses US 1 and 401 in the fuquay area when that leg is completed. Because currently it takes 45 minutes to an hour on a busy day to cross the city.

The sprawl was inevitable. It's the price of high growth. But I don't think it's too bad.

[IBruton]

Sprawl all over Wake County is no big deal. It's an urban county just like Orange County, CA and many others. The development being proposed in the article will fill a HUGE niche in that area of Knightdale. There is nothing in this design that will detract from downtown Raleigh or other "core areas." Currently, there is very little "big box" development around knightdale, which is causing people in that area (including myself) to commute farther for modern conveniences. This can do nothing but help the people of eastern wake county. Besides, if you keep these people closer to home, then they won't be polluting as much by driving 45 minutes to garner or west Raleigh. In this case, sprawl is good.

[Jerseyman4]

I cant wait till theres a I-940

A circumferential highway going around Sanford, Benson, Middlesex, Louisburg, Oxford, Bahama, Mebane, Pittsboro and going back to Sanford hehe.

Bahama is pronounced BA HAIM AH

[f0xym0p]

I cant wait till theres a I-940 

A circumferential highway going around Sanford, Benson, Middlesex, Louisburg, Oxford, Bahama, Mebane, Pittsboro and going back to Sanford hehe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's always nice to see my hometown of Sanford mentioned! Sanford clearly needs a beltway. (ha ha)

[JunktionFET]

Sprawl all over Wake County is no big deal.  It's an urban county just like Orange County, CA and many others.  The development being proposed in the article will fill a HUGE niche in that area of Knightdale.  There is nothing in this design that will detract from downtown Raleigh or other "core areas."  Currently, there is very little "big box" development around knightdale, which is causing people in that area (including myself) to commute farther for modern conveniences.  This can do nothing but help the people of eastern wake county.  Besides, if you keep these people closer to home, then they won't be polluting as much by driving 45 minutes to garner or west Raleigh.  In this case, sprawl is good.

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This is an interesting topic, and I believe it is helpful to hear all opinions. I disagree with some of your points--

Sprawl all over Wake County IS a big deal. Sprawl does detract from the "core areas", there are no two ways about it. When something is placed in an outer ring suburb that was once a pine forest, it takes away something from the interior--potential development, property value, etc. This is an argument against sprawl in general, not necessarily this particular development.

"Big Box" developments are generally pretty bad all around. The huge open area with the giant unbroken buildings and massive paved parking lots greatly aggrivates the urban heating effect--increases surface pollution and temperature. These developments are also designed exclusively for automobile traffic, and they can have quite a negative impact on local traffic but funneling huge volumes of cars through one or two key intersections. This prompts the need for many more lanes, and eventually some sort of bypass route. Just look at US64 now--and that's just with basic strip malls.

I believe some people may misread the opposition to proposals like this. Development and convenience are good. People in the suburbs should have access to things that do not require them to sit in their cars for hours getting aggrivated and polluting the planet. I live in southeast Cary--I know sprawl and I know how much I hate sitting in my car. I love having restaurants, bars, and shopping within a very short distance of my dwelling.

On the other hand, a more urban approach needs to be investigated. Focus on several smaller scale developments which interface directly with the community. Don't build a "big box" and place it in a striped asphault ocean 1000 feet away from the roads and sidewalks.

This is about being urban--make it so some people don't even need their cars for convenience trips.

[orulz]

Good response, NorffCarolina.

I'm not against development in outer Wake county. I'm just for smart development. There may or may not be anybody who goes to this hunka whatever that's getting built out there on foot, but you can bet that these people aren't being catered to at all. And next they're going to put more three-or-four story should-be-in-downtown apartment complexes a mile and a half further outside the beltline, and advertise them it as "Conveniently located near I-540 and Target!"

I haven't seen the design, but if this place is supposedly going to be such a huge draw, then they should be making at least enough profit to be creative with the pedestrian access and environment. They'd ought to do something so that you don't have to drive half a mile through the parking lot to go from one store to another. They should throw in a few bike racks and sidewalks. They should consider parking decks so they don't create such a huge amount of impervious surface.

I expect none of these concessions. They're suburban big-box developers, land is cheap out there, and nobody pays attention to that stuff anyway because we've all been conditioned to be so dependent on our cars.

Give me a break.

[DigitalSky]

Yeah.. first of all Wake County's got WAY too many SuperTarget/Target stores and Super Walmarts... but this looks like another big box sprawling power center for the outer belt which the local residents either are loving or hating. It could be argued that Eastern Wake may need this since virtually every other part of Wake has a power center similar.

heres a map of some big boxes in the area.. been updated

[Tayfromcarolina]

add another target in garner beside bj's, and add a target in apex.

[DigitalSky]

Thanks for the info Tay, i updated it

[orulz]

Ha. Figures, not a single one inside the betlline! The Sam's Club on S. Saunders and the K-Mart at Western and Blue Ridge come close, but no cigar!

Come to think of it, is there a single major big box retailer inside the beltline, anywhere? Grocery stores don't count, of course.

Ah wait, just thought of one.. the Borders on Six Forks. Can't think of anything else. I bet this has something to do with property values: the land's too expensive to waste it on parking spaces. I must say, however, that I have a distinct lack of knowledge about the area between 1 and 6 o'clock on the beltline.

[StevenRocks]

So that's 10 Targets, 9 Wal-Marts, 5 Kmarts, 3 BJ's, and 3 Sam's Clubs. Damn!

[DigitalSky]

So that's 10 Targets, 9 Wal-Marts, 5 Kmarts, 3 BJ's, and 3 Sam's Clubs.  Damn!

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Costco could be coming soon too!

[Tayfromcarolina]

Yep and I believe Costco would be inside the beltline At wake forest/sixforks intersection.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

"Development Follows Raleigh's Outer Belt". Geez, who would've thought?! Development FOLLOWING transportation corridors? I thought the anti-rail transit people say there's not enough development to support building the rail corridors. Funny how the rules that seem to apply to roads "mysteriously" escape these people when it comes to rail transit.

[StevenRocks]

I read somewhere that a lot of Target shoppers cross-shop at Costco and Nordstrom. There's obviously plenty of Targets in Wake County, and Costco's coming. Could it mean there's a Nordstrom on the horizon for Raleigh as well?

[DigitalSky]

I read somewhere that a lot of Target shoppers cross-shop at Costco and Nordstrom.  There's obviously plenty of Targets in Wake County, and Costco's coming.  Could it mean there's a Nordstrom on the horizon for Raleigh as well?

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I don't think the Raleigh market's really ready for 2 Nordstroms

[StevenRocks]

I don't think the Raleigh market's really ready for 2 Nordstroms

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, a guy can dream!

Seriously, with the consolidation that's going on in the inudstry and the relative wealth in the Raleigh market, it's not as far fetched as you might think.

[Jerseyman4]

Hey, a guy can dream! 

Seriously, with the consolidation that's going on in the inudstry and the relative wealth in the Raleigh market, it's not as far fetched as you might think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As the population continues to grow in Wake County, a demand for a 2nd nordstrom will be higher as more and more people will be less willing to make a drive on I-40 to South Pointe. The people who live in cities, demands the closest proximity. This is why you see a lot of big box stores being built allover the Triangle and from reading posts earlier, more are expected to be built!

[DigitalSky]

Yeah i was just basing my 2nd Nordstrom thoughts based on how Saks at TTC is doing

[DigitalSky]

i had no idea it was opening so soon, i was reading the blurbs in the N&O

http://newsobserver.com/business/story/281...p-9264453c.html

In Durham's Renaissance Village behind The Streets at Southpoint, the anchor stores are slowly opening. Home Goods and Petco opened this fall, Target opened last weekend and Michael's is scheduled to open soon. Also, Omega Sports has signed a deal to open a 6,200-square-foot store there this spring. It will be the Greensboro chain's second Durham store.

Also, I read in the retail updates that:

North Hills is getting a REI store

Harris Teeter is building a new store in Cary's Stone Creek Village

[waynehead]

This is actually a very nice urban area that's developing down there. Right across the street from the Target and just a fraction of a mile down from the mall there's a very pleasant apartment and townhouse community, it's on the TTA and DATA buslines, and you see a lot of pedestrians out at night and on the weekends.

That said, do we really need another big box? No, we do not.

[DanRNC]

That said, do we really need another big box? No, we do not.

Maybe an IKEA-although I don't know if this really counts as a big box.