Big Box Retailers in the Triangle... bad news?

[yoga]

What I don't get is why big boxes don't develop scaled down versions for the many revitalizing downtowns nationwide. If delivery costs are a barrier, why not open 2 or 3 smaller scale versions and deliver to them in a localized area? The Ace hardware going in at Seaboard is something I've been waiting for years for.

And if the big boxes can't figure out how to downsize, why not make it easier for the indys to set up shop? More character & culture, IMHO.

[ChiefJoJo]

I thought someone might have seen this. 960 parking spaces? Well I guess that's progress huh?

[citiboi27610]

This is so sad. This is way too many Wal-Marts. Its not even that I hate Wal-Mart, because its convenient and it fits in well with what I need. Wal-Mart has a terrible habit of showing no mercy to the land they develop and it makes me cringe.

The Super Center on New Bern is one of the worst examples in my opinion. The little hill before the New Hope & New Bern Intersection is compounded by the hill on the other side. When you approach it, it appears to be a blank field with no trees or anything. The Wal-Mart corporation could've redeveloped the K-Mart Shopping Center across the street or even the Tower Shopping Square.

It takes good city planning policies to get good development. Can't Raleigh get Wal-Mart to build better? The new Wal-Mart at TTC could be worse for the area rather than better. I can also see the one in Southeast Raleigh not really helping the area as much as needed.

I hope the city can do things better.

[Gard]

The Wal-Mart corporation could've redeveloped the K-Mart Shopping Center across the street

[Spatula]

This is so sad. This is way too many Wal-Marts. Its not even that I hate Wal-Mart, because its convenient and it fits in well with what I need. Wal-Mart has a terrible habit of showing no mercy to the land they develop and it makes me cringe.

[ncwebguy]

The article mentions the Alexander Place Wal-Mart being surrounded by includes Starbucks, Panera Bread and Moe's Southwest Grill. But there already is a Panera by Best Buy, a Moe's in Triangle Town Center, and *three* Starbucks nearby -- B&N, near the TTC food court, and in the Super Target.

Is this location necessary with the Wake Forest, East Raleigh, New Hope, and Brier Creek locations nearby? Plus the development at the former Plantation Inn. And Poynter Place with Super Target, Old Navy, etc. and the smaller stores/restaurants closer to TTC. Capital Blvd. from Millbrook to downtown will fall further in decline as everything gets sucked into the 540/Capiol vortex. Ugh.

I could see a Red Robin opening there, and maybe another EB Games, Payless Shoes, cell phone company, and other stores in front of the East Raleigh and Brier Creek stores. Though both have a Starbucks so there might be one there too. This would put the area above the three in North Hills -- near HT, the movie theater, and in Target.

[Gard]

Is this location necessary with the Wake Forest, East Raleigh, New Hope, and Brier Creek locations nearby? I could see a Red Robin opening there, and maybe another EB Games, Payless Shoes, cell phone company, and other stores in front of the East Raleigh and Brier Creek stores. Though both have a Starbucks so there might be one there too. This would put the area above the three in North Hills -- near HT, the movie theater, and in Target.

[Jones_]

I would bet that a Wal-Mart has never driven up anyones property value, Gard.....I bet Saks is really concerned about it....they were banking on the area turning high end and a Wal-Mart is decidedly the converse of this.....shoot, If I owned the mall I would ask the city to not let it go in, but what do I know...

[Tayfromcarolina]

Walmart is a beast. All I know is that I hope it's one of the new posh Walmarts that they have begun that debuted in Texas late last year. Walmart is just so overwhelming, You definetly wont catch me there much, ever. Especially on Sundays, it's worse that Crabtree at Christmas.

[citiboi27610]

Its necessary, I'm tired of it being 20-30 minute drive for a store just miles away .

[ncwebguy]

This isn't necessary. There is a Super Target ACROSS THE STREET. If that is a "20 minute drive" then the area has bigger problems than not having enough discount retailers.

Some parts of the city/area are *not* served at all *cough* SE Raleigh *cough* while this area, which has more residents but a lot more competition and nearby options, keeps getting more.

I went through the "Beaver Creek" area on Saturday evening. While there wasn't anything else nearby, Waverly Place/Cresent Commons was only 5 miles away, and Crossroads/Cary Town Center about 15. Was it necessary? Who knows. But the dining options seem limited compared to shopping options.

The worst was the "City center" development on the north side of 64. It is connected by a bridge to the long strip mall, unwalkable from Circuit City to 55. It isn't *in* the center of anything. Just more side-by-side uses sold as "mixed use".

[foodpainter]

I would bet that a Wal-Mart has never driven up anyones property value, Gard.....I bet Saks is really concerned about it....they were banking on the area turning high end and a Wal-Mart is decidedly the converse of this.....shoot, If I owned the mall I would ask the city to not let it go in, but what do I know...

[Gard]

This isn't necessary. There is a Super Target ACROSS THE STREET. If that is a "20 minute drive" then the area has bigger problems than not having enough discount retailers.

[Spatula]

Well Target and Wal-Mart are two different companies. Just because one is in one place doesn't mean the other should not build in that area. Thats like saying why build a McDonalds when there is a Burger King next door, both of which you constantly see building next to each other. I personally shop at whichever has the cheapest price for the exact item I'm looking for, so more similar stores in one vicinity is more than welcome by me. Welcome to Capitalism.

[Jones_]

Exactly. Target and Wal-Mart next to each other actually forces them to compete, which is something the companies usually try to avoid by spreading out as far away as possible. The same goes for McD's and BK, which generally don't like to rub shoulders. It's a suburban thing. Enforce monopolies in certain areas so you can cut corners on service. If anything two next to each other would be good.

Now, I wouldn't give business to either of them. I'd take a drugstore in an urban area any day over that dross, but still.

[ncwebguy]

Exactly. Target and Wal-Mart next to each other actually forces them to compete, which is something the companies usually try to avoid by spreading out as far away as possible. The same goes for McD's and BK, which generally don't like to rub shoulders. It's a suburban thing. Enforce monopolies in certain areas so you can cut corners on service. If anything two next to each other would be good.

[Gard]

Wrong. Target and Wal-Mart are not competing with each other, they are competing with other stores. Having beat mom and pop stores years ago, they have now set their sights on other big boxs. Their toy departments have put Toys R Us in a reduce role with fewer stores, jobs, managment, etc. Music retailers have also been squeezed, though digital distribution has not helped them either.

McDonalds vs. Burger King is a matter of taste, while Target and Wal-Mart sell the same (often unnecessary) things for virtually the same price. The fast food buildings have smaller footprints, so you could put a McDonalds next to a Burger King and a Wendy's in the space of a Super Target/Walmart and still have space leftover. The larger parking lots they demand reduces density and pushes sprawl further out. The one-use nature of the developments gobbles up land that otherwise could be residential, office, park or other uses. As mentioned earlier, closed stores are kept as empty husks to keep competion out, but also spread sprawl even further out.

Not taking into consideration the resource (gas) and time cost to "save" money is an easy to make mistake. The Sunday ad inserts often advertise things not even on sale! To say nothing of the hidden costs of "free parking", reduced wages and health care (see below), etc.

I worked at one of these stores for a year, and cutting corners on service is a function of a store's *sales*, not *competition*. The number of employees on the clock at any one time in a store is related to what that store sold the year before. With more stores in an area, each store's sales (and employee hours) goes down. Target keeps the cash registers as lightly stocked as possible and pulls sales floor help when checkout traffic increases. Wal-mart makes customers wait in long lines to check out to keep prices low. By shopping there, you are setting the value of your time to those few cents you save.

Also, by having fewer hours, Wal-Mart and Target can hire more staff as part-time instead of full time. They don't have to offer health care coverage for part time workers, saving even more money. This also means employees have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet, which in turn make them more exhausted and less focused while working. To say nothing about gas and other costs of getting from job to job.

Seasonal and discontinued merchandise is discounted on a set schedule -- x percent off after y days, etc. -- not based on area comeptition.

[Jones_]

Well I am going to tell you this from nearly a decade of coordinating inventory and pricing in the retail industry.

Alot of pricing and sales ARE coordinated to compete with other retailers. Many retailers "price shop" each other to see what other retailer are charging, so they can adjust prices accordingly. This is done by such stores as Walmart, CVS, Target, Walgreens, etc. The company I work for REQUIRES all of our stores to submit a report every month on the prices of various items at our competitors. This is a very common practice. For instance, the company I work for coordinated a good sales ad with the week that Rite Aid bought Eckerd for the sole purpose of taking attention away from the merger. Yes, many things in the ad are not on sale, you just have to know your prices. Let me give you a little lesson in how sales work. Sales, in addition, to competing for business, are paid for by the manufacturers. When you see Tide on sale for $4.99 instead of $5.99, that $1 difference is credited to the retailer, so they in essence, lose nothing. Sales vs. employee hours bugeted is a silly arguement. Most national retailer's flyers are the same around the country. The company I work for, for instance release one flyer for the entire chain, period. If they based the sales on employee hours, every store would have a different sale each week. As for store sales going down as more stores are built, not necessarily. Retailers push their stocks up by INCREASING same store sales. If the stores were competing against each other much, they would simply not be built. There are some locations my company owns that are practically across the street from each other and each one of the stores has increased sales figures every quarter. Yes, seasonal items are on a schedule for clearance...who said they were set by competition?

After my years in the retail industry, I know my prices top to bottom and can spot a real sale from a fake. Most retailers even state in fine print that real sale prices are indicated with the word "sale" next to them while non sale items don't mention a sale. You also don't have to wait in line at Walmart that much, I am usually in and out in 5 minutes. They do have self checkouts you know. Thats actually one thing I hate about Target, no self checkouts. As for gas, I calculate that into the equation too. I account for every single penny that comes into and goes out of my household.

[RALNATIVE]

My biggest concern with the big box retailers is that they promote urban sprawl that eventually consumes land that could and should be reserved for major companies looking for corporate sites.

In terms of the long-term economic impact of box retailer vs. corporate operations site, the latter definitely provides more advantages. Corporate jobs pay higher wages and attracts additional jobs to the area, which in turn allows for more spending at the box retailers. On the otherhand, box retailers pay lower wages and typically don't attract new jobs to the area. I vote to limit the number of big box retailers in certain areas.

[urbanvb]

Not that I am a fan of big boxes but they do contribute a whole lot of sales tax to the city.

[dmccall]

While I want to have many mom & pop retailers around and the monetary flow staying local, I look at my bank account in Quicken and the retail list is like: Target, BJ's, Costco, Home Depot, Target, Home Depot, Target. One of my biggest pet-peeves in life is having to go to more than 2 places to buy something. I think over time I've just gotten so disgusted with small stores and their unpredictable inventory and unpredictable hours that my limit time is best bet on hitting the places I can trust. I went to buy paint from a local store on a Saturday at 4pm, but they were closed that afternoon for inventory...so I ended up at Home Depot. After doing this hundreds of times many people will gravitate toward more reliable outlets. I think that is why these big boxes are doing well. I could go spend >1hour in an office store just browsing around at the notebooks, erasers, desk organizers, computer stuff. Same with a big bookstore.

There was that one day when I lived in Carrboro and I set out to find 8 pieces of poster paper and 4 cheap magic markers. After visiting EIGHT stores in Carrboro/Chapel Hill, I ended up at Office Depot at South Square.

Within reason, convenience far outweighs price for me. Of course, there are limits, as I have found myself avoiding BJ's and Costco sometimes because the amount of walking to get a bundle of Kleenex is prohibitive. I don't think we'll ever get to the size of the Costco shown in the movie Idiocracy.

[Jones_]

While I want to have many mom & pop retailers around and the monetary flow staying local, I look at my bank account in Quicken and the retail list is like: Target, BJ's, Costco, Home Depot, Target, Home Depot, Target. One of my biggest pet-peeves in life is having to go to more than 2 places to buy something. I think over time I've just gotten so disgusted with small stores and their unpredictable inventory and unpredictable hours that my limit time is best bet on hitting the places I can trust. I went to buy paint from a local store on a Saturday at 4pm, but they were closed that afternoon for inventory...so I ended up at Home Depot. After doing this hundreds of times many people will gravitate toward more reliable outlets. I think that is why these big boxes are doing well. I could go spend >1hour in an office store just browsing around at the notebooks, erasers, desk organizers, computer stuff. Same with a big bookstore.

There was that one day when I lived in Carrboro and I set out to find 8 pieces of poster paper and 4 cheap magic markers. After visiting EIGHT stores in Carrboro/Chapel Hill, I ended up at Office Depot at South Square.

Within reason, convenience far outweighs price for me. Of course, there are limits, as I have found myself avoiding BJ's and Costco sometimes because the amount of walking to get a bundle of Kleenex is prohibitive. I don't think we'll ever get to the size of the Costco shown in the movie Idiocracy.

[tjoad]

Big box retailers are ok in moderation. I don't see why every corner of the Triangle (especially Raleigh) has to have the same old vanilla-styled shopping center with the same old big-box tenants. The worst thing about these sprawling shopping centers are the ridiculously over-sized parking lots. Instead of the city requiring a minimum number of parking spaces, I think it should have a maximum amount, with a fee for every space over that.

I avoid going to these stores as much as I can. It is not difficult for me, being single and living in a small apartment.

[RALNATIVE]

The worst thing about these sprawling shopping centers are the ridiculously over-sized parking lots. Instead of the city requiring a minimum number of parking spaces, I think it should have a maximum amount, with a fee for every space over that.

[ChiefJoJo]

Going to chime in on this one...

OK, so I pretty much hate big box stores and rarely shop in them. Yes, they provide a valuable service and looking at their popularity, they are doing quite well all over the nation. You have to give it to the Waltons. They found a niche and carved it out, and out, and out... so wide, that now they are (I believe) the #1 corporation in sales in the US (world?).

I have no problem with efficiency, innovation, etc. We should applaud those that strive to provide new services and develop creative ideas. The problem I have is just how slanted the laws are in this country in any number of realms that provide a market place for these companies to succeed.

Our zoning laws in 95% of places is severely slanted towards large scale suburban development. These laws often do not consider the long term consequences to the surrounding community, the environment, or transportation. One of the first things I noticed is now this new Wal-Mart proposal includes almost 1,000 parking spaces--even more the the liberal zoning requires. Obviously, the cost sutting measures emplyed by Wal-Mart and others has been well documented, but the indirect impacts to our health care system and thus our wallets is another example of the true price society pays for "low prices." If more people were educated on these issues, they might think twice before patronizing those businesses. (NOTE: CostCo apparently does a great job of paying their employess good wages and providing health care to most employees. As a result, CostCo has significantly less turnover and I believe that translates into a better customer experience.)

My feeling is that if we saw more bix boxes incorprated intelligently into mixed-use developments like the Lowes in South End Charlotte and the Target in North Hills, I would feel much better about the direction we are headed. These are clear examples that big box stores can be built in a way that minimizes their impacts to the physical environment... so I feel we should hold developers to a VERY high standard: So, if you want to build a Wal-Mart, you must make it mixed use (residential must be a component), pedestrian friendly, etc. If the developer refuses, no approval.