Big Box Retailers in the Triangle... bad news?

[ncwebguy]

That's the kind of mind-stretching thinking I love to see in this forum...I envisioned a similar setup with a Kroger (great health food section) or Whole Foods as the anchor at North and Harrington between Capital and Glenwood South. The topography of this parking lot would yield great visibility towards capital heading into downtown and the density in this area is just about right to support a full fledged grocery store.

If the TTA gets/stays on track (pun intended), putting the state govt. stop there near Harrington and Lane, I think something along these lines is likely. It would also be a good linchpin between Glenwood south and the government complex of the northern CBD. Also Empire properties has scooped up several properties in the area along north st.

Even without TTA, the existing 510 Glenwood and residential tower across the street, when combined with the paramount and quorum center well under construction, and other residential projects in various planning stages (warren distribution, old Raleigh Office Supply, etc), the area could use a grocery store anchor in 2-3 years. Earth Fare just opened in Brier Creek and could be a good fit, or Harris Teeter could do something similar to the Uptown Charlotte store that just opened.

Tthe Seaboard development between Peace College and Logan Trading company, currently underway, feels removed from the glenwood south area, with the non-automobile experience along Peace from Glenwood to Halifax being less than ideal. It may be intending to serve an entirely seperate market, with their targets being Capital Park and the houses north of it, Mordecai, Oakwood, Peace college students, and car based govt workers on their way home.

[Tayfromcarolina]

In todays edition of the News and Observer Walmart announced that it will build a Supercenter near the intersection of Rock Quarry and Sunnybrook Rds. Just down the road from the Amphitheater. The store will likely be open near the start of 2007.

News and Observer 11/22/05

Personally I would like to see more development come to that area. And it is only natural since That is one of the few areas of town that has been lagging behind. And I think now is the time especially since they will be widening Rock Quarry soon. That area has been gaining steam in recent years with several nice subdivisions and townhome communities popping up. And it is a great artery between Clayton and outlying wake County and the city of Raleigh.

However I don't care too much for Wal-mart. It is a hassle trying to find a park most days and I feel as if the store is really crowded and is often far from clean. But I guess any development is good development. But I do hope they use some mental ambition in this project and create something more aesthetically pleasing than just your regular looking Wal-mart. Conversely that's why I admire Target they often take many more liberties is designing their stores i.e. Northills Target or Triangle Towne Center Target.

[NCroadBoi]

I'm glad Southeast Raleigh is seeing some development. Too bad its a Wal-Mart. Target is definitly better. I also wish they would develop some of the land inside the beltline. There's lots of land off of Rock Quarry and Sunnybrook. Maybe in the future. Its a start.

[waynehead]

Anyone who drives through SE raleigh regularly knows this is not going to help things. Rock quarry needs to be widened ASAP if this big box really is coming soon, otherwise it'll turn into a traffic nightmare.

[Jones_]

But I guess any development is good development.

I am a bit surprised that this sort of sentiment could be found on someplace called urbanplanet.com. The distinctions between urbanization and sprawl are very clear. And besides, didn't anyone watch the Walmart movie last weekend??

Smart growth is dense. Smart growth is well connected streets, not wider and wider streets. Smart growth is mixed use buildings not just mixed use site-plans with single use buildings plopped down. Smart growth enables small business to thrive that create wealth in your community instead of Wal-mart pocketing billions from your community and paying minimum wages back to your community. Smart growth preserves green spaces that protect your very limited water supply. No any development is not good development. New is not nicer. Bigger is not better. I hope that this forum is more than just an information exchange on new projects but an oppurtunity for people to view the opinions of people who are dreaming beyond the status quo of continued big box sprawl ad infinitum.

[intcvlcphlga]

I am a bit surprised that this sort of sentiment could be found on someplace called urbanplanet.com. The distinctions between urbanization and sprawl are very clear. And besides, didn't anyone watch the Walmart movie last weekend??

Smart growth is dense. Smart growth is well connected streets, not wider and wider streets. Smart growth is mixed use buildings not just mixed use site-plans with single use buildings plopped down. Smart growth enables small business to thrive that create wealth in your community instead of Wal-mart pocketing billions from your community and paying minimum wages back to your community. Smart growth preserves green spaces that protect your very limited water supply. No any development is not good development. New is not nicer. Bigger is not better. I hope that this forum is more than just an information exchange on new projects but an oppurtunity for people to view the opinions of people who are dreaming beyond the status quo of continued big box sprawl ad infinitum.

Thank you for saying this. I have attempted to voice the same sentiment multiple times and never seem to get any response. I have often wondered why there seem to be more topics about WalMart, other big box retailers, chain restaurants, etc. on Urban Planet than topics about intelligent urbanism and architecture. WalMart postings reliably elicit responses while Herzog & DeMeuron's new de Young Museum in San Francisco has yet to get a comment. There are topics like WalMart v. Target, is Target the new WalMart, Does NYC love WalMart? (the answer is no) - my answer is: who cares, considering that WalMart is the antithesis of urbanism? My entreaties repeatedly fall on deaf ears - case-in-point, the most viewed topic in the NC Triad section is whether or not Carolina Circle Mall in Greensboro should be renamed WalMart Plaza? At least in the NC Triangle section they're is some discussion about interesting development projects like a new modern art museum...

[ChiefJoJo]

I agree with the above comments on sprawl but I'd also say that it's very easy to view this as being about just Wal-Mart, when there's another issue about the general lack of development and retail/shopping options in SE Raleigh. I dislike Wal-Mart as much as many people on UP do, but I also know that area has suffered for a long time to get almost any type of significant development to serve the community's needs, so my negative reaction to this article is tempered quite a bit. I wouldn't say I support Wal-Mart in this case, but I think it may do a lot of good for the SE Raleigh community.

[DigitalSky]

Here's my latest map on current/proposed boxes (Wal-Mart, Target, Kmart, BJ's, Costco and Sams) for the Wake County area.

[urbanesq]

Big boxes are part of the globalized economy, so it's really hard to articulate how it is that stopping them on a local level would help anything. Doing so may tend to save the localized environment and traffic situation form deteriorating, but will more likely mean the big box goes just down the road, across the city or county line, etc. Addressing the social and cultural issues that have led us to a place where, as a society, we supersize everything, is much more difficult to do except on a global level. I know, I know-- think global act local and all. But the reality of the economics almost makes the local debate impossible to win.

Just my two cents.

[Jones_]

Big boxes are part of the globalized economy, so it's really hard to articulate how it is that stopping them on a local level would help anything. Doing so may tend to save the localized environment and traffic situation form deteriorating, but will more likely mean the big box goes just down the road, across the city or county line, etc. Addressing the social and cultural issues that have led us to a place where, as a society, we supersize everything, is much more difficult to do except on a global level. I know, I know-- think global act local and all. But the reality of the economics almost makes the local debate impossible to win.

Just my two cents.

Relatively cheap energy enables the current global economy. Right now the savings on labor to outsource jobs of all kinds, is worth the increased energy costs associated with transportation, most notably with manufactured goods. There is a horizon at which this will no longer be the case. Two hundred years ago transportation costs along slow dirt roads prohibited the export of most crops in NC...small self sufficient farms prevailed. The railroad changed this by changing the time cost of transportation dramatically. You take gas to $10 dollars a gallon tommorrow and I guarantee the local washer and dryer repair man will reign supreme over buying new appliances being shipped from overseas. The costs of repairing our damaged environment caused by energy exploitation will soon catch up with us too. It takes government grant money to keep drinking water in rural areas from passing $100 dollars per month. Supporting the cheap energy economy and becoming reliant on large amounts of cheap energy is akin to walking the plank....and do not be under the illusion that someone like Wal-mart is saving you money....you are paying for it with subsidized water and sewer, with health and food stamp programs for wal-marts underpaid employees, by having to pay for an army that secures our cheap energy supply globaly by "stabilizing" regions so wal-mart can cheaply ship in chineese made products. I do not think pushing Walmart down to the next town is a wasted effort for my town. My local businesses are more likely to survive and when energy costs get high local manufacture of goods will be cheaper (for those that have raw materials available, textiles, food etc.). Reigning in the exploitation of cheap energy and the big box economy heads off what (as we have seen recently) would likely be a huge global recession. Keeping the big boxs out of your town insulates you from that.

[urbanesq]

Relatively cheap energy enables the current global economy. Right now the savings on labor to outsource jobs of all kinds, is worth the increased energy costs associated with transportation, most notably with manufactured goods. There is a horizon at which this will no longer be the case. Two hundred years ago transportation costs along slow dirt roads prohibited the export of most crops in NC...small self sufficient farms prevailed. The railroad changed this by changing the time cost of transportation dramatically. You take gas to $10 dollars a gallon tommorrow and I guarantee the local washer and dryer repair man will reign supreme over buying new appliances being shipped from overseas. The costs of repairing our damaged environment caused by energy exploitation will soon catch up with us too. It takes government grant money to keep drinking water in rural areas from passing $100 dollars per month. Supporting the cheap energy economy and becoming reliant on large amounts of cheap energy is akin to walking the plank....and do not be under the illusion that someone like Wal-mart is saving you money....you are paying for it with subsidized water and sewer, with health and food stamp programs for wal-marts underpaid employees, by having to pay for an army that secures our cheap energy supply globaly by "stabilizing" regions so wal-mart can cheaply ship in chineese made products. I do not think pushing Walmart down to the next town is a wasted effort for my town. My local businesses are more likely to survive and when energy costs get high local manufacture of goods will be cheaper (for those that have raw materials available, textiles, food etc.). Reigning in the exploitation of cheap energy and the big box economy heads off what (as we have seen recently) would likely be a huge global recession. Keeping the big boxs out of your town insulates you from that.

Well put, and I don't disagree with you at all. But to Joe Q. Citizen (and by proxy his elected officials deciding whether to allow Wal Mart to locate in Our Town) that all translates into spending more money on goods in the near term for which one could drive up the road to pay a little-- or sometimes a lot-- less.

Has anybody seen the Wal-Mart movie yet?

[Jones_]

Well put, and I don't disagree with you at all. But to Joe Q. Citizen (and by proxy his elected officials deciding whether to allow Wal Mart to locate in Our Town) that all translates into spending more money on goods in the near term for which one could drive up the road to pay a little-- or sometimes a lot-- less.

Has anybody seen the Wal-Mart movie yet?

Sadly you are correct

[ncwebguy]

I know this is *urban* planet, but the location of the proposed Wal Mart is where urban meets rual with little to no suburban in between:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=raleigh+nc+r...,0.175798&hl=enArea of proposed Wal-Mart

The proposed interesection is between map markers E and G.

It is close to downtown as the crow flies, but feels miles away from anything urban. I would *love* to see this as an epicenter of "New Urbanasim" for the area, but that will never happen if it is just ignored as being in the sticks.

This isn't a small mill town -- there are no "Mom and Pop shops" to run out of business there -- Mom and Pop (let alone Target or K-Mart) never opened shop.

I'd *love* to have a North Hills-like mixed use development here, but other than the basement big box, I don't know what could go on top. There isn't enough beds, let alone affluent beds, in the area to justify restaurants, REI, botique clothing stores, etc. The amount of office space in that submarket is a rounding error.

I am torn between the evil incarnate that is wal-mart vs. the fact that southeast raleigh has *nothing* but a few grocery store anchored strip malls (Kroger at MLK and Rock Quarry, Food Lion at Rock Quarry and Crosslink, Food Lion at Poole and 440).

The plans do inlcude outparce stores, similar to the New Bern Ave. location, so there are management level opportunities for those stores too. It won't be just acres of parking, but the idea of being a "walkable street" is a joke. The problem with that area is the same plaguing Centenial Campus -- having too much land to play with leading to horrible use of space.

Joe (and Jane) Q. Citizens in this area already are driving to the WalMarts in Garner, Knightdale, and on New Bern Ave. Putting one here isn't "changing" their shopping options, just shortening travel time and distance. "Pay a little more for better quality and worker pay" doesn't want to be in that area, so WM is filling in the gap, for better or worse. Most residents in that area can not afford to pay much more than WalMart prices either.

[JDC]

It's URBANplanet, right? Let's let SUBURBANplanet handle the Wal-Mart threads.

[JunktionFET]

I cringe at the thought of a Supercenter... I think of an extra large ocean of asphault (much larger than the standard issue version) containing an ugly warehouse type building with fake brick facade and 2 or 3 nondescript entrances, all set so far from the street that the only text you can read from that distance is "Walmart"... on a clear day.

This land should probably see some kind of expandable urban-ish faux village type development, with a smaller scale and more "urban" Walmart or Target... much like North Hills. Throw in a neighborhood grocery like a medium sized Harris Teeter or Lowes Food, and give some space for a foundation of shops you'd normally see in a strip mall. Allow higher density housing like apartments or townhomes to be built in close proximity, and give the whole retail center room to expand on the model as needed in time.

[ncwebguy]

Don't give the robots running wal-mart these days any ideas!

Imagine what Wal-Mart apartments would look like.... cheapest materials possible, unfinished celings, just metal supports! tacky wal-mart "art" of dogs playing poker! flourescent lighting everywhere!

Wall to wall plywood do-it-yourself furniture! No need for much closet space, since your clothes will disentegrate after 2 or 3 washings! And a built in McDonald's for all your (mal)nourhiment needs!

But they pass the savings on to the customer! so it's ok.

The New Bern Ave. Walmart is the most "urban" area in that part of town, though that isn't saying much.

It has the slightly disguised strip mall thing going for it, with clusters of shops that back up to each other and not a sea of parking, but it is still more than necessary.

I'd really like to see a mixed use development with a hidden target, grocery store, movie theater, since downtown doesn't have any of those options currently. But again, this is a "happy to get anything" area. If this succeeds, the area can show it is worth of more retail, etc. and will take on a more urban flavor instead of becoming a clone of capital blvd. or 70/401 in garner.

I don't think this area is any "less urban" than Triangle Town Center, the Durham Pickle, or even Crabtree and Southpoint for that matter, but those topics seem to be ok...

[intcvlcphlga]

It's URBANplanet, right? Let's let SUBURBANplanet handle the Wal-Mart threads.

I couldn't agree with you more. Wal-Mart, Target, malls, chain restaurants and other anti-urban establishments seem to excite more people on here than anything else.

[DigitalSky]

yeah, but we do need a place to talk about these things too.... development is development, whether it's urban, suburban, rural

[NCMike1981]

If we were to truly limit the discussion in this forum to Triangle skyscrapers, overpriced condos, or the de-malling of Fayetteville St we would have much less available to talk about. It's good to have a mix of urban and suburban issues to make it more interesting. Besides a person can always just skip over topics not of interest to them

I don't mind when a Wal-Mart comes into a somewhat economically stagnant or depressed area of town because it least it gives people some sort of shopping and employment option near their homes. Besides a job paying $7.50/hr is better then no job at all right?

[JDC]

This land should probably see some kind of expandable urban-ish faux village type development, with a smaller scale and more "urban" Walmart or Target... much like North Hills. Throw in a neighborhood grocery like a medium sized Harris Teeter or Lowes Food, and give some space for a foundation of shops you'd normally see in a strip mall. Allow higher density housing like apartments or townhomes to be built in close proximity, and give the whole retail center room to expand on the model as needed in time.

I would agree that a more urban-style shopping center or what-have-you like North Hills is more attractive than a single big-box. But then again, doesn't tolerating these homogenous, artificial "plazas" or "districts" only help push the ever-sprawling landscape, giving businesses another reason to set up away from the city centers and out where there's plenty of parking and a security guard crusing around in a Toyota RAV4?

I like the concept of North Hills and places like it, but I'd take a real live city with diverse uses over an outdoor mall any day.

[jaxpalmer]

i find it repulsive that new wal mart store being built anywhere in the triangle could be greeted with anything but disgust, wal mart is horrible, why anyone would support a store being built in their area is beyond me.

[MR-2]

I have no clue. The business it brings is not going to help us in the job market, the product quality market, or regional image.

[Raleighsfinest]

You know it's kind of funny that soon as the most neglected part of town, which has been treated almost as a separate city, is getting so much attention when it attains an amenity which it sorely needs, everyone on other parts of town, show digust. I don't think almost anyone on this board can criticize Wal-mart for opening a southeast Raleigh location. Especially if you don't live there or even support that part of town. I will promise you this, I bet the people in that area will be overwhelmingly overjoyed when they realize they don't have to hassle with driving to a whole other part of town, just to do some household shopping. Let southeast Raleigh attain whatever it needs.

There are almost 40,000 people who live on that part of town! That's larger than Apex, Garner, Clayton, Smithfield, Knightdale, etc! The place only has three shopping centers!

I think it's unfair that most of the money that is made on the southeast side, has to be spent on the other parts of town. Not having any amenities there is almost like a shakedown from the more prominant parts on town.

This Wal-mart development there is more of a even business deal between the store and the residents. Sorry, but it works out for everyone there.

[avery]

As much as I don't like Wal-Mart, it will be very successful in this part of town. This area does get neglected somewhat and it is unfair to ignore it. I just don't see this part of the city attracting a North Hills type of development. I'm sure the people there will gladly welcome it.

[jaxpalmer]

You know it's kind of funny that soon as the most neglected part of town, which has been treated almost as a separate city, is getting so much attention when it attains an amenity which it sorely needs, everyone on other parts of town, show digust. I don't think almost anyone on this board can criticize Wal-mart for opening a southeast Raleigh location. Especially if you don't live there or even support that part of town. I will promise you this, I bet the people in that area will be overwhelmingly overjoyed when they realize they don't have to hassle with driving to a whole other part of town, just to do some household shopping. Let southeast Raleigh attain whatever it needs.

There are almost 40,000 people who live on that part of town! That's larger than Apex, Garner, Clayton, Smithfield, Knightdale, etc! The place only has three shopping centers!

I think it's unfair that most of the money that is made on the southeast side, has to be spent on the other parts of town. Not having any amenities there is almost like a shakedown from the more prominant parts on town.

This Wal-mart development there is more of a even business deal between the store and the residents. Sorry, but it works out for everyone there.

ok, first of all, the wal mart being built there will suck millions out of the southeast raleigh community and guess who will be seeing that money? not the residents, but the wal mart shareholders. Wal mart wants to build there to exploit the residents. Have we really come to think that wal mart provides everything and is just A-O.K.? "if you need this, go to wal mart, if you need that go to wal mart", thats not how things should be. I can also guaruntee that wal mart will treat their employees there like crap, just like they do everywhere else. Bottom line is wal mart is just bad news, and people in raleigh and ESPECIALLY in southeast raleigh should be doing everything they can to stop a store being built there.