What do you like and dislike most about your part of Atlanta?

[Lady Celeste]

Celeste, while some people may do such out of racism, most do so out of the desire of living amongst people who look, think, and act like them. Blacks do this. "Hispanics" do this. Whites do this. It is basic human instinct, and for you to bring into the argument issues of Jim Crowe is trying to steer the argument into a wrong direction.

Huh? Don't you mean Andrea?

[Scraper Enthusiast]

So Scraper Enthusiast, allow me to ask you this. Let's say for the sake of argument that you are a middle-class, college-educated small business owner making in the vicinity of 75K annually. Do you feel you would have more in common with a person that is the same race as you, a college dropout, and a factory worker making 30K annually or someone that's a different race than you, also a small business owner, college-educated, and in the same income bracket? It appears to me that your sole (or primary) qualifier for someone "like me" is race.

And the mention of Jim Crow laws was not an attempt to "denigrate White folks." Andrea's post never implied such, but she is well capable of speaking for herself on this matter; I know mine never did if you read what I said in context.

On the personal level, it would be somewhere in between. On the group level, if there were no other choice, I'd probably seek to live amongst the poor whites. Again, this is basic human instincts.

This in no way ostracizes any individual. It is simply my preference, the same type of preference that any other racial group has. Simply because I'm white doesn't mean that my preferences are any less valid, lest you be a hypocrite.

Your little income bracket argument does not negate the truth of the issue. Self-Segragation is a natural outcome in diverse settings, for the most part. Economic barriers or attachment to an area may keep an area diverse for a while, but it's bound to become more homogeneous. As long as there is available land, people will seek out areas that are familiar to them.

Huh? Don't you mean Andrea?

Celeste, sorry for the mistake.

[krazeeboi]

On the personal level, it would be somewhere in between. On the group level, if there were no other choice, I'd probably seek to live amongst the poor whites. Again, this is basic human instincts.

I seriously doubt this.

I am a Black male in my mid-20's with a bachelor's degree, working on a master's, and will be pursuing another master's (possibly in combination with a law degree). I would much rather prefer to live in a middle class neighborhood that's predominantly White than a predominantly Black ghetto. We all pay a price for our segregation along the lines of race and class, some hidden, some obvious.

But then again, your hypothetical "last resort" choice shouldn't really surprise me, as I probably wouldn't want to live among those I deem genetically inferior to myself.

[ironchapman]

I seriously doubt this.

I am a Black male in my mid-20's with a bachelor's degree, working on a master's, and will be pursuing another master's (possibly in combination with a law degree). I would much rather prefer to live in a middle class neighborhood that's predominantly White than a predominantly Black ghetto. We all pay a price for our segregation along the lines of race and class, some hidden, some obvious.

Exactly what I would do.

As a white male, I would prefer to live in a Black middle-class neighborhood than a predominantly white ghetto.

[Andrea]

Andrea, while some people may do such out of racism, most do so out of the desire of living amongst people who look, think, and act like them.

Hm, so you're thinking the things I mentioned -- blacks being held in slavery, stigmatized as inferior, denied the right to vote, sit on juries, being terrorized, beaten, whipped and lynched, denied employment and the right to attend schools, to walk into a hotel or restaurant, to swim in pools or play in parks limited to whites only, denied the right to sit where they wanted to on the bus or train, being subjected to "separate but equal" laws, and racial zoning and redlining practices, and whites hysterically fleeing in mass to the suburbs by the millions whenever black families moved into the neighborhood -- all these things were merely a product of the simple desire of white folks to live among people who look, think and act like themselves?

It is basic human instinct

I must have missed out on that gene, because I don't feel that way. Nor do a lot of other people I know.

for you to bring into the argument issues of Jim Crowe is trying to steer the argument into a wrong direction.

Why so? In my opinion Jim Crow laws, and the attitudes that led to them, have had a phenomenal impact on the shaping of American cities, including Atlanta. If you don't think so, I'd recommend taking a look at Race and the Shaping of Twentieth-Century Atlanta by Professor Ronald Bayor over at Georgia Tech.

Surely you're not suggesting that the desire of Hispanics to "be together" is the reason they're not buying houses in Country Club of the South? I'd also have to disagree that there is an instinctual basic desire for people to separate themselves by race. I don't feel that way, and I know a lot of other people who don't feel that way. I'm also not sure I understand how you believe Jim Crow laws denigrate white people.

As to being scorned, you are the one who said you felt compelled to jump in and explain that your desire to live in a white community didn't have anything to do with race or anything like that. If it doesn't, then why all the defensiveness?

[LizellaJacket]

I do agree that I'd rather live in a community of middle class blacks than poor ghetto whites. However, if it came down to one neighborhood of middle class black or middle class white, i'd choose middle class white. Before, you jump to conclusions, the middle class white neighborhood is more likely to have people who fit my social interest. Whites are more inclined to watch college sports, whites are more likely to like racing, whites are more likely to like country music and might want to go to concerts. It's a simple desire to live amongst those of who have the same interest. Nothing more, nothing less.

On a side note, I know an awesome black guy whos more redneck than you could ever imagine. His nickname is squirell and chews spit tobacco. Talk about someone who breaks the mold.

[Lady Celeste]

I do agree that I'd rather live in a community of middle class blacks than poor ghetto whites. However, if it came down to one neighborhood of middle class black or middle class white, i'd choose middle class white. Before, you jump to conclusions, the middle class white neighborhood is more likely to have people who fit my social interest. Whites are more inclined to watch college sports, whites are more likely to like racing, whites are more likely to like country music and might want to go to concerts. It's a simple desire to live amongst those of who have the same interest. Nothing more, nothing less.

On a side note, I know an awesome black guy whos more redneck than you could ever imagine. His nickname is squirell and chews spit tobacco. Talk about someone who breaks the mold.

How many people really associate with their neighbors? I don't see it as much as I did when I was young. I don't even see children playing as much. The more affluent the area the less interaction I see. Usually I associate more with my friends and family gathered through social clubs I am a member of. I know my neighbor's name but she does not walk across her yard to talk to me....we have leyland cypress to block the side views anyway. I guess what I'm getting at is that many people don't....and I could be wrong...associate with their neighbors like in yesteryears? Maybe I'm wrong.

I guess my main concern would be first and foremost....

1. The area has to be great when it comes to real estate. You wouldn't want to by a $2.5 million dollar home and you are surrounded by $125,000 homes. I don't care what color the people are around you, you will have a hard time unloading that property.

2. low crime rates

3. great schools. Although my school aged child does not attend public school, I would like to know that if I decided to send the others there, they would get a great education.

4. amenities. I want parks, retail, doctors and shopping around me. I want access to interstates

5. be off the beaten path. I know this is Urbanplanet. I'm working on this. Oddly enough though, there are places inside the perimeter that you can have the "off the beaten path" feeling and you are right in the city.

I can find that anywhere I suppose. For my household it would be hard for us to want to live around someone exactly like us. My husband and I don't even like they same things. I like classical and he listens to Lincoln Park. He plays sports and I don't. He's from the north and I'm from the south. He likes going to sports events and I like going to the opera. He loves the mountains and I love the beach.

Are households even the same anymore?

[LizellaJacket]

Well first off I dont want to live anywhere close to metro ATL when I graduate from Tech, so I dont know how neighbors are up here. I'm sure its not too neighborly though. I want to associate with my neighbors like my hometown associates with neighbors. We know eachother and we 'watch' over eachothers house when someone goes to town or out of town on vacation. I'm willing to make less money for this added quality of life.

Not sure what that last part had to do with the premise of this thread, but there it is.

[Lady Celeste]

Not sure what that last part had to do with the premise of this thread, but there it is.

If you can't figure it out then there is no need to explain.

Well I guess it's back off to Lizella after school for you then.

BTW, I'm sure that if someone saw a stranger in my yard they would call the authorities. I just don't stand in the yard chatting up my neighbors. Like I said, it can all depend on the economic level of the area. For hypothetical purpsoes, if I am a member of the Standard Club and my neighbor is a member of Dunwoddy Country Club then chances are we are not going to necessarily congregate in each others home. We probably will not go to concerts together or watch sporting events together. I will be neighborly and speak.....that's if I see them. We normally park our cars in the garage so half the time I am already in the car if by chance they are at their mailbox.

I guess if I am in small town America then yes I will have more communication with my neighbors. In exurbia, suburbia and urban areas I would think that most people have formed circles of associates that are not necessarily their neighbors.

BTW, the last part of my post was to show that even households are not exactly alike. Should my husband and I move to neighborhood where everyone there likes classical music or rock....or whatever Lincoln Park, Limp Bisquit, Smashing Jack-o-lanterns and all those other groups he listens too? The whole premises of the last part of my post was to say where in big city America is everyone's taste the same? Don't say you want to be around people who like the things you do...just say you want to be around whites and be done with it.

I don't think I could ever live in a rural setting full time. I would go mad. That doesn't mean that I look down on rural areas and the people that live there. I would love to have a country home on about 120 acres. Chances are it would be gated and I would probably not associate with the natives. I would also prefer to live in an area that is overwhelmingly educated. I would want my children surrounded by businesspeople, lawyers, doctors and such. I would not want some of my children falling for someone who's family is just starting out. My children would not be able to secure advantageous marriages. I would prefer to stay either in or close to the city. There.....see I said it. If that's your preference then say it. As long as you are not disparaging others in the process then you have every right to live where and how you want....to a certain degree.

Before I go...I was only kidding about the advantageous marriages and my fear of my children marrying into some upstart family with great pretentions. I'm trying to play the devil's advocate. Although I would prefer an educated populace.

[Scraper Enthusiast]

Hm, so you're thinking the things I mentioned -- blacks being held in slavery, stigmatized as inferior, denied the right to vote, sit on juries, being terrorized, beaten, whipped and lynched, denied employment and the right to attend schools, to walk into a hotel or restaurant, to swim in pools or play in parks limited to whites only, denied the right to sit where they wanted to on the bus or train, being subjected to "separate but equal" laws, and racial zoning and redlining practices, and whites hysterically fleeing in mass to the suburbs by the millions whenever black families moved into the neighborhood -- all these things were merely a product of the simple desire of white folks to live among people who look, think and act like themselves?

I must have missed out on that gene, because I don't feel that way. Nor do a lot of other people I know.

Why so? In my opinion Jim Crow laws, and the attitudes that led to them, have had a phenomenal impact on the shaping of American cities, including Atlanta. If you don't think so, I'd recommend taking a look at Race and the Shaping of Twentieth-Century Atlanta by Professor Ronald Bayor over at Georgia Tech.

Surely you're not suggesting that the desire of Hispanics to "be together" is the reason they're not buying houses in Country Club of the South? I'd also have to disagree that there is an instinctual basic desire for people to separate themselves by race. I don't feel that way, and I know a lot of other people who don't feel that way. I'm also not sure I understand how you believe Jim Crow laws denigrate white people.

As to being scorned, you are the one who said you felt compelled to jump in and explain that your desire to live in a white community didn't have anything to do with race or anything like that. If it doesn't, then why all the defensiveness?

I'm not impacted by Jim Crowe laws. As I said, I was born in the seventies, grew up in a relatively diverse area, and can think logically and rationally about things. Given the choice of any neighborhood in metro Atlanta, would your number one choice be a predominately black, Hispanic, or Asian neighborhood? If you can't be true to yourself, then you're a hypocrite. Why not choose to live in Lithonia instead of Gwinnett? Would you, if perhaps proximity to your job didn't play a role?

Bringing the "Country Club of the South" into the equation doesn't do anything to prove your point. I never implied that whites or blacks were buying into the "country club of the south". That is what you brought into this argument.

You claim that there is not an instinctual desire? Hmm, how is it that racial segregation still occurs? Seriously, be real.

I didn't say that Jim Crowe Laws denigrate white people. I said your choice of interjecting it into this discussion is a form of denigration of white people, and I gave my reasons why. How about again reading what I said.

Jim Crowe laws effected the racial makeup of the city, insomuch that they prohibited blacks from living in most areas. De Jure segregation was wrong, as it denied people the choice to live where they wanted to. When racial zoning and Jim Crowe were ended, blacks had residential opportunities elsewhere throughout the city. As a result, whites fleed to the suburbs. While the general perception of blacks found in the culture played a huge role in the dispersement of whites out of the city, part of the exodus was related to people's desires to live amongst their own. The blacks who were moving into white neighborhoods didn't so much like living in white neighborhoods, but they saw such action as being essential to expanding their influence and greater representation, with the goal of making life better for their people. Once they realized that they had a significant impact on changing the city, if they only moved to a white area, blacks became emboldened to further their influence and territory.

[Andrea]

....part of the exodus was related to people's desires to live amongst their own.

Perhaps the difference lies in how we define "our own." To you, that is apparently determined by the color of people's skin.

[krazeeboi]

You claim that there is not an instinctual desire? Hmm, how is it that racial segregation still occurs?

How much time you got?

[Pillsbury]

I'm hesitant to write this, but oh well. Here in Augusta, we have a huge exodus of people leaving Richmond County (mostly whites, but many blacks as well). They are settling in affluent Columbia County, just next door to Richmond. Obviously, race is a factor for some people (not all, but some) in choosing where to live. But most people are leaving Richmond County because they're tired of the crime and the corruption--this crosses racial lines. People just want to have some control over their surroundings--to send their kids to good schools and live in a safe area. People will do anything for their kids and this shows in where they choose to live---they'll drive that hour to work every morning if it means their kids are in a safe area and good school. It's not race--it's economics and safety.

I'm white, but "my people" are not into Nascar or country music--though they do like college sports (Go Dawgs). "My own" are people who are respectful and courteous and are fun to be around. I also like people who have backyard pools that I'm allowed to swim in whenever I like (and a hot tub would be nice as well). It does not matter what their skin color is.

[teshadoh]

As for me - though I think I understand Lizella & Scraper's point, it's still hard for me to accept such racially motivated decisions. Regarding my psyche, I will admit my largest prejudices - lower income. I would prefer not to live around lower income, Black, White or Latino. But I do though - but I don't care for the thug attitude that some poor Blacks exhibit, but then again I equally can't stand the aggressive behavior from the local poor Whites.

Regarding my own income or social level - it hasn't mattered about the race. There are a few middle income Blacks that live in my neighborhood, compared to the majority middle income Whites. There isn't animosity or any insecure feelings - middle income Blacks share the same values as middle income Whites.

Nonetheless - we all can go through this argument until we're blue in the face. The real issue is why should anyone feel the need to explicitly use race as a qualifier. It is likely honesty, but I still think it has more to do with wishing to be provocative - which it has worked. In all honesty - the group of people that has annoyed me the most, is the conservative White revisionist. They mimic the behavior of some vocal Black civil rights activists by making the absurd claim that Whites are disenfranchised.

[Mr.Marc]

My husband and I don't even like they same things. I like classical and he listens to Lincoln Park. He plays sports and I don't. He's from the north and I'm from the south. He likes going to sports events and I like going to the opera. He loves the mountains and I love the beach.

Are households even the same anymore?

I can tell. You even spelled Linkin Park wrong.LOL

[Scraper Enthusiast]

Perhaps the difference lies in how we define "our own." To you, that is apparently determined by the color of people's skin.

I don't think that color of one's skin has anything to do with it. A tanned "white" woman can be darker than a light-skinned "black" woman.

[Andrea]

People just want to have some control over their surroundings--to send their kids to good schools and live in a safe area.

Yep. That's why I continually beat the drum about the need for Atlanta to make sure it's school system is up to par. If it's not, then 99 out of 100 people will continue to choose to live outside the city.

That's not impossible at all. Historically, Atlanta public schools were the envy of the region, and there remain a number of excellent schools in the city, which equal or exceed their suburban counterparts. It's not simply a matter of throwing money at the problem either, in that Atlanta already spends more per pupil than almost any other school system in the state.

I don't think that color of one's skin has anything to do with it. A tanned "white" woman can be darker than a light-skinned "black" woman.

But as I understand you, whether somebody is one of "your own" is still about whether they are considered white, n'est-ce pas?

[Scraper Enthusiast]

I'm hesitant to write this, but oh well. Here in Augusta, we have a huge exodus of people leaving Richmond County (mostly whites, but many blacks as well). They are settling in affluent Columbia County, just next door to Richmond. Obviously, race is a factor for some people (not all, but some) in choosing where to live. But most people are leaving Richmond County because they're tired of the crime and the corruption--this crosses racial lines. People just want to have some control over their surroundings--to send their kids to good schools and live in a safe area. People will do anything for their kids and this shows in where they choose to live---they'll drive that hour to work every morning if it means their kids are in a safe area and good school. It's not race--it's economics and safety.

I'm white, but "my people" are not into Nascar or country music--though they do like college sports (Go Dawgs). "My own" are people who are respectful and courteous and are fun to be around. I also like people who have backyard pools that I'm allowed to swim in whenever I like (and a hot tub would be nice as well). It does not matter what their skin color is.

You're not being honest with yourself. Race has half to do with it. Whites prefer the company of whites, so when whites are seeking out Columbia County, they are doing so because the county has a heavily white majority (90% in 2000, probably 87% today). You are correct in that crime probably has a bit to do with whites leaving the city. Furthermore, the desire of the "new" likely has a lot to do with whites seeking out places in Evans, etc. Yet, that's only half the story. If anyone can be honest to you, the general person on the street, ask them why they moved to these areas. They might give you the secondary reasons, but inquire if race had anything to do with it. Unless they're fearful, lest they be judged as "racist", they'll tell you the truth.

You mention schools, but don't you realize that all the "Good Schools" are predominately white schools? People arguing that they're moving to an area because of "good schools" are usually suggesting that they're moving to a school district to get their white children into a school in which they're not a minority. Furthermore, the schools do typically have better discipline and higher test scores because of the culture that makes up the schools. I have taught in predominately black schools, mixed schools, and predominately white schools, and the latter is definitely the most disciplined, well-behaved of the schools. The first is definitely the most chaotic, whether someone wants to believe it or not. This has a bit to do with why some black parents do happen to move into white areas, as they want the best education for their child. They know the chaotic "inner city" schools will not help their children. It is not the teachers' fault, funding, etc. It is the culture of the school, brought in by the students.

It is hard to believe that anyone could disagree with things that are so basic and common sense. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I've lived in a multitude of settings, from homogeneous to heterogenous, and that I have worked in settings that are predominately white, predominately black, or generally mixed. Many of you, either unable to be true to yourself out of being labeled, or because you have limited experience, simply have a problem admitting the truth.

"My people" are also NOT NASCAR fans. I enjoy country music, but I'm not into "mudding", hunting, or any of the like. Those are cultural elements of whites, but they don't exist as a monolith in white people. Rap Music and Hip-Hop culture is not a monolith amongst black people, even though it unfortunately is in middle and high school kids.

[Pillsbury]

Well I was really just kidding about the Nascar and country people. I went to high school on the southside of Augusta---my high school was about 60 percent black and about 35 percent white. If you know anything about Augusta you know about the southside. I understand your reasoning, but my argument is that these schools that are mostly white tend to succeed because of the economic background of the parents as opposed to the race of the students. Also, I hardly think that all the white people are heading to Columbia County because of race. I don't think that the average Richmond County resident is saying, "Come on Martha, let's go to Columbia County, they have white people there." Yeah, I'm sure there are some who say that, but I think most are saying, "Hey Martha, Richmond County sucks, our taxes are going to pay a bunch of morons and they just upped our property tax again. Let's get out before our house depreciates in value anymore."

Also, your argument doesn't explain the success of mixed schools in Augusta. Did you know that the highest ranked high school in this entire state is located in downtown Augusta and is a mixed race school (Davidson)? I know people who have moved back from Columbia County just to send their kids to that school. It also doesn't explain the unique state of Richmond Academy, a normal public school that is about 70 percent black, yet many old money people on the Hill choose to send their kids there. Its IB program is among the most respected in the area and its also a golf powerhouse.

I speak of Augusta because it's my city so I know it best. Not trying to get off-topic.

[teshadoh]

Sorry, this is off topic from the present discussion - but is there any point in this conversation? I realize I added my opinion, but otherwise I don't see anything positive coming out of this, even if we remain civil as we are. It's these pointless arguments that have tired me more & more - obviously we can't ignore 'race' as a reality in society. But we can choose to not make 'race' as a factor in our own lives. That is my only point.

Otherwise, those that disagree can continue to disagree but any further rehashing of opinions isn't going anywhere. Yeah, I'm apathetic that way...

[Lady Celeste]

I totally agree with you Brad. 1000%........

Boulder bound???? Bouldercrest Rd or Boulder, Colorado?

[Andrea]

Sorry, this is off topic from the present discussion - but is there any point in this conversation?

Yes, I think so. I know my own feelings about race have been profoundly influenced by discussons I've had, things I've read, people I've met, and frankly, sometimes by being called on racist statements and attitudes that I didn't even realize I was expressing.

I think the subject is particularly pertinent when you're talking about urban growth and development in a place like Atlanta, where race has played (and continues to play) such an enormous role. I'd again recommend Dr. Bayor's book, Race and the Shaping of Twentieth-Century Atlanta, to anyone who wants to understand why this city has grown the way it has. Other important reads are White Flight: Atlanta and the Making of Modern Conservatism by Dr. Kruse at Princeton, and Contesting the New South Order by Dr. Kuhn at Georgia State. They all cite dozens of other sources as well.

It's frustrating and often tedious to talk about race and class, but there are few factors that are more constant in understanding how our urban and suburban environments work.

[teshadoh]

I totally agree with you Brad. 1000%........

Boulder bound???? Bouldercrest Rd or Boulder, Colorado?

Colorado in late July

Andrea - I normally would agree with you, & there have been times my opinions altered due to online conversation. But somehow I doubt this is one of those times. I would consider intentionally making a race-oriented statement to be asking for confrontation. Anyone who deliberately engages in race-baiting isn't changing their mind. The key difference is those that see America split by class or by race. It's a big difference & any further discussion will only convince one another how right they are.

[Pillsbury]

Sorry, this is off topic from the present discussion - but is there any point in this conversation? I realize I added my opinion, but otherwise I don't see anything positive coming out of this, even if we remain civil as we are. It's these pointless arguments that have tired me more & more - obviously we can't ignore 'race' as a reality in society. But we can choose to not make 'race' as a factor in our own lives. That is my only point.

Otherwise, those that disagree can continue to disagree but any further rehashing of opinions isn't going anywhere. Yeah, I'm apathetic that way...

I agree with you. My emotions just got the best of me a little bit.

I'm not from Atlanta, but I do visit my girlfriend's family in Alpharetta quite a bit, so I'll just pretend to live there:

Likes:

The scenery is absolutely beautiful. The rolling hills and the trees make it one of the prettiest places I've ever been.

Downtown Alpharetta is pretty cool, very much a small town feel.

Dislikes:

You can't really walk anywhere and it takes at least 30 minutes to make even the shortest of trips.

[Andrea]

.... any further discussion will only convince one another how right they are.

Brad, how can you say such a thing? There's never been any question that I'm 100% right.