Crabtree area flooding

[Damien]

ok , do we stop building in houston medical city for flooding? Do we stop building in charleston for storm surge? do we leave savannah for the ever flooding problem? NO!!!! we inovate and correct to our environment. Stop over reacting to an isolated event? yeah it is a flood plain so is houston but it is our fourth largest city. let get over this and move to another subject please

Thank you! I am so sick of hearing people beotch and moan about Soleil.

[orulz]

ok , do we stop building in houston medical city for flooding? Do we stop building in charleston for storm surge? do we leave savannah for the ever flooding problem?

So is New Orleans and we all know what happened there. Truth is, flooding is NOT a problem to be ignored. Parts of NO that flooded are definitely getting rebuilt, but there is still ongoing discussion about whether or not to rebuild some of the most flood-prone, most heavily damaged parts of town.

Savannah, Charleston, and Houston all have significant and historic built environments in the flood-prone areas that were in place long before the scope, frequency, and severity of flooding in the areas were well understood. In the case of these three cities, building in a flood-prone area was also unavoidable, since the cities have served as ports since their inception. In other words, no turning back. At Crabtree, however, there's a mall and a bunch of roads, that's really just about it. Only with Soleil, in 2006, did the city make the commitment that this floodplain should continue to be intensely developed. It's pushing us to the point of "no return." That's why some folks in this thread and on this board are saying is a mistake.

NO!!!! we inovate and correct to our environment. Stop over reacting to an isolated event? yeah it is a flood plain so is houston but it is our fourth largest city.

What sort of innovations are you talking about? I don't see any real way to "innovate and correct the environment" at Crabtree without spending massive amounts of money and massively disrupting the city with years of intrusive construciton. You could either tear down the mall and tear up the streets, pile up dirt in their place, and rebuild the streets and mall 20 feet higher than they are, or you could invest hundreds of millions of dollars on a massive pump-and-channel to move floodwaters elsewhere. Neither is likely to happen, and if they do the expectation will be that the taxpayers cover the expense. No thanks.

let get over this and move to another subject please

Flooding at Crabtree might not be as big of a deal as some people here say it is, but it's also not the non-issue that you imply. To me, it at least warranted the question "Is this the appropriate location for one of the city's three largest activity centers?"

I'm glad that the developers of Soleil want to invest so much in our city, but this really wasn't the best place for it to go. We're beyond that point already, so it's a moot point, and now that it's a done deal I'm looking forward to watching it go up. It's gonna look awesome, but I'm disappointed that it won't do more to create a real urban atmosphere.

[willrusso]

[bullcity76]

It is my understanding that Raleigh has several creeks like this...some in residential areas. It is largely due to huge developments with lots of impenetrable (sp?) surfaces with no accountability for water runoff. I wonder if a Crabtree District TIF aimed at accounting for runoff from both sides of the valley. It could be financed by the increase in taxes from the new developments and the overall appreciation of the area.

That area is basically in a bowl so you either catch the water before it reaches the bottom or build storm drainage systems to handle an increased load. I guess that is what is meant by innovate :-)

[richyb83]

TWC just said Raleigh was tops in rainfall with 7.60" of rain. Nearly double the monthly rainfall for June ! Wow ! Was there any wind with this system ? Just curious.

They also said Apex NC had 6.67" of rain.

[CliffyB]

I maintain that I want to walk to the Cheesecake Factory.

Well...

Not really.

Enjoy the water guys. Hahaha.

[ncsugrad204]

OK again. It is not that I am saying it is an non-issue, I am saying stop trying to perpetuate an idea of this is bad beacause it is near a creek that floods. The real agenda is why wasn't this built downtown. Let stick to that not "oh the creek floods that why you should have not built soliel there". BS!!! Also yes savannah and charleston are old cities, I have lived in near both. But there still is major development going on in the same areas that flood espically on abercon street in savannah " if any of you are familiar to the area " Floods like the dickins. that does not stop developers or locals from building? they cope because the area is attractive. this is why the future buildings are bieng elevated for that very purpose, so flooding would not be a big factor. I have one question, does the mall have flood gates to prevent flooding inside?

[pdxheel]

OK again. It is not that I am saying it is an non-issue, I am saying stop trying to perpetuate an idea of this is bad beacause it is near a creek that floods. The real agenda is why wasn't this built downtown. Let stick to that not "oh the creek floods that why you should have not built soliel there". BS!!! Also yes savannah and charleston are old cities, I have lived in near both. But there still is major development going on in the same areas that flood espically on abercon street in savannah " if any of you are familiar to the area " Floods like the dickins. that does not stop developers or locals from building? they cope because the area is attractive. this is why the future buildings are bieng elevated for that very purpose, so flooding would not be a big factor. I have one question, does the mall have flood gates to prevent flooding inside?

The problem with Crabtree and Soliel is that it is not an attractive place to hang out. Its a mall with a huge parking lot and a future tall building (granted the building may look nice) built on top of a parking garage. If the area was livable, pedestrian friendly and didn't flood then I would not have as many problems with Soliel. The problem is its not livable, its anything but pedestrian friendly and it floods. The only argument I've really heard in support of the project is that the building looks nice and people are just happy that someone wants to build a tall building. In my opinion...people are getting to caught up in the look of the building and not thinking long-term or in a sustainable manner. These are just my opinions.

[RaleighLover]

The problem with Crabtree and Soliel is that it is not an attractive place to hang out. Its a mall with a huge parking lot and a future tall building (granted the building may look nice) built on top of a parking garage. If the area was livable, pedestrian friendly and didn't flood then I would not have as many problems with Soliel. The problem is its not livable, its anything but pedestrian friendly and it floods. The only argument I've really heard in support of the project is that the building looks nice and people are just happy that someone wants to build a tall building. In my opinion...people are getting to caught up in the look of the building and not thinking long-term or in a sustainable manner. These are just my opinions.

Agreed. I get the feeling this could be a huge disaster.

[RaleighLover]

wow. Now that's crazy. Does it only flood at that intersection?

If it rains enough the whole damn valley floods.

This happens at least once every several years.

[dmccall]

Can I wash my car now. (just kidding)

One of the big problems with the water conservationists holding us all hostage the past Fall was that our normal rainfall amounts INCLUDE HURRICANE DUMPAGE. Since we hadn't had major amounts like that since Bonnie and Charlie hit, of course we were at a deficit on the 365-day ticker.

For optimal growth, grass and plants need to not be watered every day (except for the 2 weeks after seeding in the Fall), but I don't like the concept of water restrictions. I've never known anyone or lived near anyone who watered daily. I don't like not being able to wash bird doo and road grime from my car, thus damaging the paint and hurting resale value, ESPECIALLY when I use less water than my little girl does is two nights of baths. I think people are overly reactionary to microscopic, regular climate changes anyway.

Here's a fun graph to follow. It shows 365 rain total against the norm.

[orulz]

OK again. It is not that I am saying it is an non-issue, I am saying stop trying to perpetuate an idea of this is bad beacause it is near a creek that floods. The real agenda is why wasn't this built downtown. Let stick to that not "oh the creek floods that why you should have not built soliel there". BS!!!

Well, that's definitely half of the biggest issue that I have with Soleil. However, I would be almost as happy to have Soleil by Crabtree as downtown if it contributed to an urban streetscape in the neighborhood. If the first developer around Crabtree were to build something urban and street-friendly, other developers who build in the same area, and even the owners of the mall itself, are likely to follow suit. That would mean they're part of a district which is more of a draw than any one project or destination can be on its own.

However, the flood-prone nature of Crabtree makes that impossible, because all the activities in any building have to be suspended in the air, out of the floodplain. So, that makes the first major new project (Soleil) to turn a cold sholder to the street. Then, everyone else follows suit - Kidd Hill, Creedmoor Towers, etc... and rather than a real 'district' we end up with a bunch of stand-alone projects that add up to no more than the sum of the parts.

The fact that there is, basically, no feasible way to build said 'district' at Crabtree is entirely due to the fact that Crabtree Creek floods. Even 8-lane Glenwood and 6-lane Creedmoor could be mitigated with a pedestrian bridge or two, wide sidewalks, and a few street trees, a-la North Hills phase two... but not the floods. No way around that one.

It may seem like a drawn-out argument, but that's the real reason why Crabtree's flooding is a big deal to me.

[ncsugrad204]

Again, yes some of us who approved of the building did only because of it looks, I am not one of them. The area is considered a hub for dense development. This project whether 42 stories or ten adds that. it takes prime property and utilize it. None of you would want a park there. Second soleil has nothing to do with pedistrian activity go talk to city about traffic calming. Third this project is a percent of the real problem that exist in this area. I believe the real culprit in the owner of the mall who refuses to make good decision about his plot of land more island of parking than needed and bad call on stores. when that area near soliel is completed as plan there will be plenty of activity between the offices and the hotel but maybe not across the street to the mall but I guarantee people will take the trek across the street just like they do from the embassy and the marriot. just my humble opinion

[Subway Scoundrel]

The problem with Crabtree and Soliel is that it is not an attractive place to hang out. Its a mall with a huge parking lot and a future tall building (granted the building may look nice) built on top of a parking garage. If the area was livable, pedestrian friendly and didn't flood then I would not have as many problems with Soliel. The problem is its not livable, its anything but pedestrian friendly and it floods. The only argument I've really heard in support of the project is that the building looks nice and people are just happy that someone wants to build a tall building. In my opinion...people are getting to caught up in the look of the building and not thinking long-term or in a sustainable manner. These are just my opinions.

Hang Out !!!! Do people actually feel the Soliel people are going to invest that much money for people to "hang out." It is a hotel and M$$ condos. Not a place for college kids to "kick around".

People should think about the target market. Think about the business man who stays around Crabtree but is looking for 4 star hotel and is tired of coming to Raleigh and the Marriott. He might just choose Portland or Tucson next time. Think about the empty nesters who sells their inside the beltline home for $1.6M and is finished with yardwork for the rest of their lifes. It floods every few years and people call it a disaster. Is it still underwater now? I don't think so. Atlantic and Wake Forest also flood and I dont hear peple screaming for the car dealerships and THe Longbranch to "stop business." Or "How could they put a Costco there, it FLOODS!!!". I don't hear that.

If people want to live there with the chance of being caught "up top" for a half day, then so be it, that is their business. Their investment !!!!.

I hear so many people say "it is not pedestrian" when the city and area still continues to build strip center and no sidewalks all over the city. I would expect to hear even more concern about the area around Triangle Towne Mall since it is 10 times worse but I don't understand why people argue about Soliel and leave TTMall out of the conversation like it does not exist. Soliel will be a non-issue in 3 years if it ever gets built. Just my humble opinion.

[ChiefJoJo]

The only argument I've really heard in support of the project is that the building looks nice and people are just happy that someone wants to build a tall building. In my opinion...people are getting to caught up in the look of the building and not thinking long-term or in a sustainable manner. These are just my opinions.

I completely agree.

One thing to consider is that we have long since passed the point where the city (or FEMA?) should have considered restricting development in this area. The fact is that the old (imploded sheraton?) hotel that was previously there would have flooded too, and Soliel will be no different. The entire area is made up of impervious surfaces (pavement) that forces all stormwater to run-off, and it's been that way for maybe 25 years. The question, like in New Orleans (albeit on a MUCH smaller scale) is do we try to turn back the clock and restrict and structures in flood-prone areas or build back in the same area knowing it will probably happen again?

Count me in opposition to Soliel being built in this location, but I don't think a reasonable argument can be made that it is due to the floodplain location, unless you would also argue that we should shut down the mall and all development in the Crabtree floodway.

[CliffyB]

You guys do know that someone IS planning a redevelopment of Crabtree, right? I was walking around downtown and there's an architecture firm across from the Greyhound station (right near Napper's/Quorum) and they had a huge posterboard inside that said "crabtree redevelopment." They intend on making it a North Hills-like "new mall." You know, combination indoor/outdoor, some with roofs.

These new "sorta malls" are all the rage it seems. South Point. North Hills. Triangle Town. Build the mall as the core, then build a satellite collection of Dick's sporting goods, AC Moore, and all the same crap that's everywhere else. They then build apartments and condos so you do get a sort of meta-city... at least it's somewhat walkable but still - it's not downtown.

[pdxheel]

Hang Out !!!! Do people actually feel the Soliel people are going to invest that much money for people to "hang out." It is a hotel and M$$ condos. Not a place for college kids to "kick around".

You have obviously never lived in or appreciated a lively urban city where adults and youth enjoy a pedestrian environment and "hang out" in restaurants, shops, bars, art galleries, etc. To suggest that people want condos that are detached from an urban environment and merely access it by car is not what I have experienced. Maybe this is true in Raleigh, but certainly not the cities I've lived in. People move to urban locations because they enjoy its density and street level access to amenities.

And yes, sadly, developers often misinterpret the market and invest where they should not have.

[capitalapts]

Keep in mind that in the NC Piedmont, the bankfull return interval (i.e., the average amount of time that passes between floods, or overbank events, on unimpacted streams/rivers) is 1.6 years. If Crabtree were a stable, healthy channel, it would flood a lot more than it does, as would many other named and unnamed streams in the area. Just an FYI.

[WanderingRaleighite]

The Crabtree Creek water show put on its usual performance, rendering the UHauls into Uboats (well the trucks-the trailers float), destroying Nissans rather than Mazdas (Southern States bought out Al Smith) and blocking most North Raleigh access to downtown. The only entertainment feature that was missing was the canoes being pulled out of the Kmart. Marsh Creek was unusually well behaved. Since the big boxes at Capital, Millbrook, Green and Calvary messed up the flood control it usually floods w/ 3" rainfall. I guess that Beamon Lake being drained saved those Brentwood houses from flooding this time. My question, "why was anyone suprised by this? 1973, 1996, 1998, 1999 and a few other years should have shown them.

[StevenRocks]

Geez, one flood and you guys are freaking out. I've been going to Crabtree for over 25 years and it's always flooded in that area in hard rain. It's not an issue beyond the obvious concerns of the stores and shoppers. The mall floods, it gets cleaned out, life goes on.

Say what you may about Crabtree (or Soleil for that matter) but if you casted doubt on every place that was classically suburban and flood-prone, you're not going to like very many places

[Jerseyman4]

Geez, one flood and you guys are freaking out. I've been going to Crabtree for over 25 years and it's always flooded in that area in hard rain. It's not an issue beyond the obvious concerns of the stores and shoppers. The mall floods, it gets cleaned out, life goes on.

Say what you may about Crabtree (or Soleil for that matter) but if you casted doubt on every place that was classically suburban and flood-prone, you're not going to like very many places

StevenRocks has a point!

[MR-2]

Geez, one flood and you guys are freaking out. I've been going to Crabtree for over 25 years and it's always flooded in that area in hard rain. It's not an issue beyond the obvious concerns of the stores and shoppers. The mall floods, it gets cleaned out, life goes on.

Say what you may about Crabtree (or Soleil for that matter) but if you casted doubt on every place that was classically suburban and flood-prone, you're not going to like very many places

Letting a major commercial center simply flood every year doesn't make Raleigh look good. It either makes us look too poor and backwards to control the flooding with aqueducts, or too stupid to pay attention to flood plains. Most of the city stays high and dry.

[avery]

The entire area is made up of impervious surfaces (pavement) that forces all stormwater to run-off, and it's been that way for maybe 25 years.

I agree that the amount of impervious surfaces does aid in the rapid rise of water in this area. However, given its low elevation, I think this area would still flood without all of the development but at a slower rate.

[Miesian Corners]

Let's face it, building anything in a flood plain borders on stupidity.

New Orleans is granted amnesty in this arguement because the French didn't realize the land itself would subside when they planned it in the late 18th Century. However, city planners, developers, and NC Soil and Conservation people were very much aware that Crabtree Creek would flood (and fairly often) when they approved it in the mid-1970s.

[plus2]

To the credit of the French, the plot of land they settled never did flood in Katrina. They built on the highish ground.