Crabtree area flooding

[DigitalSky]

^interesting

[ncsugrad204]

Letting a major commercial center simply flood every year doesn't make Raleigh look good. It either makes us look too poor and backwards to control the flooding with aqueducts, or too stupid to pay attention to flood plains. Most of the city stays high and dry.

where are the facts that this area flood every year, does savannah or charleston look stupid? I have been in ralaeigh 10 years. that has been the largest flood since dennis and floyd in 1999 .

[ncwebguy]

Charleston, Savannah, Biloxi, New Orleans, and Houston flood because they are port cities AND developed before the rise of the automobile. Higher ground there was ignored because it was impractical to walk a half mile from home to your job. Restaurants near the market in Charelston used the flooding as a way to get rid of the garbage. For a 19th century Matt Foley, living in a van down by the river was not an option.

When Crabree Valley Mall was planned, the area was cheap land just off the beltline. There was *some* flooding in the area, but it was less severe than it is now. It has had three "hundred year storms" in the last ten years now. The development around the Glenwood/Creedmoor intersection itself is not the sole contributor of impervious surfaces -- the apartments and townhouses near Kidds Hill, the office complexes on Glenwood ITB, and the strip malls north and west along Creedmoor and Glenwood were mostly built after Crabree opened its doors. Raindrops falling on that roof, asphalt, and cement is subject to gravity and flows to the lowest point -- Crabtree Creek and the southwest corner of Glenwood and Creedmoor. Shelly Lake does not keep all of the rain from coming down the valley from the northwest, and the greenway that widened Crabtree creek to the south could not hold the water either.

Unlike the port cities, there is no historical reason to be on Crabtree creek other than land that was cheap because it was prone to flooding. The valley is surrounded by dry land. Transportation advances have made it so that people can live far away from where they shop and work.

Mall tenants know what they are signing up for by being there -- a lot of shoppers with dispoasable income. The risk of being in the mall, especially on the lower floor, is accepted as part of the cost of doing business in one of the state's premier shopping centers. They throw out lost merchandise, rip up the carpets, rent a drying fan and start over.

Residents, hotel guests, and office workers, on the other hand, are a different matter. One news story said an intercom system in the mall warned shoppers about the rising water, but it was not heard from inside some stores, especially ones with their own music. There are *no* parking lot subject to flooding signs, and out of town visitors don't know the history of the area. People who lost their cars due to not being informed of the water danger have every reason to be upset.

People are freaking out in regards to Soleil because history is repeating itself. Like the developer of CVM, the Soleil group found cheap property, promised a better future for the city, and played the politics game to get the permission they needed to make money on a project that did not have to be in that location.

When the inadequate stormwater handling traps upper class condo residents and $200+/night hotel guests (not middle/lower income mall workers and shoppers) they are not going to want to be told to wait it out. Trust fund babies and empty nesters will demand helicopter evacuation. Also, there are plenty of other class A office space options in that area that don't need to close for a day or two every three years. The mall has not had to endure a flood of office worker cars every weekday, including the holiday season. Will everyday traffic congestion be tolerated by hotel guests and condo owners in a city like Raleigh with plenty of other options? I doubt it, but I'm not a fortune teller either.

Why does Costco get off the hook? Dirt was moved in to raise it above the flood plain, it will have runoff collection, has access to an alternate evacuation route, And it does not have a hotel, office, or condo element to it.

Triangle Town Center also repeated the Crabree pattern -- build a mall on cheap suburban land near a beltline, with no thought given to accompying sprawl. But it was not built in a flood plane and has resivours to handle stormwater runoff by Dicks Sporting Goods and in Poynter Place near Old Navy. It is not pedestrian friendly but it is walkable in a park the car once sense. It is boring, suburban "fake downtown/mixed use" but before the Chill and Grill cloesd, I walked off a few DQ Blizzards with a loop around TTC, with some browsing in B&N. There are plans to bring more residential units to the area than what Crabree will see. Also, it is a short shuttle ride to a phase II TTA stop, which might help with density in the area. Crabtree will only be served by buses for the forseeable future, and Soleil will likely "share" the crabtree station. Ok this is officially way too long, but has been on my mind since yesterday morning.

[StevenRocks]

Letting a major commercial center simply flood every year doesn't make Raleigh look good. It either makes us look too poor and backwards to control the flooding with aqueducts, or too stupid to pay attention to flood plains. Most of the city stays high and dry.

I don't think anybody makes a decision to love or hate Raleigh based on whether the mall floods. The ones who should be the most concerned with the flooding from an image standpoint are the mall owners, and apparently they're either content with the flooding or moving incredibly slow on a solution.

[RiverwoodCLT]

I was living in Raleigh when Crabtree was built. It was built in the middle of Crabtree Creek. They move the creek over to where it is today. They built in a flood plain, and you see what happens when you get a lot of rain.

[CliffyB]

Don't know if this was posted...

http://www.wral.com/news/9384137/detail.html

[dmccall]

We still have to keep in mind that Wednesday's event was one of the largest deluges in Raleigh's record books. Fran was ?the biggest?. Bonnie/Charlie were up there, too. We've had an inordinate number of large rain events in the last 10 years. I think that before that the mid 70's was the last time we had anything like these three events. I'm just kind of suprised that Lake Crabtree can't control this kind of flooding any better than it does.

[bullcity76]

I completely agree.

One thing to consider is that we have long since passed the point where the city (or FEMA?) should have considered restricting development in this area. The fact is that the old (imploded sheraton?) hotel that was previously there would have flooded too, and Soliel will be no different. The entire area is made up of impervious surfaces (pavement) that forces all stormwater to run-off, and it's been that way for maybe 25 years. The question, like in New Orleans (albeit on a MUCH smaller scale) is do we try to turn back the clock and restrict and structures in flood-prone areas or build back in the same area knowing it will probably happen again?

Count me in opposition to Soliel being built in this location, but I don't think a reasonable argument can be made that it is due to the floodplain location, unless you would also argue that we should shut down the mall and all development in the Crabtree floodway.

I still say that it is worth some engineers looking at the issue. I'm sure it would be cheaper for Crabtree and Soleil to fund an engineering consultant than to keep cleaning up the parking lots and stores.

[bullcity76]

I don't think anybody makes a decision to love or hate Raleigh based on whether the mall floods. The ones who should be the most concerned with the flooding from an image standpoint are the mall owners, and apparently they're either content with the flooding or moving incredibly slow on a solution.

Its more about the decisions that were made that led to the problem. Its not just CVM but each apartment, office building or hotel that was built along with their respective parking lots with no regard for storm water management. The Costco is probably required by new ordinances/legislation/insurance companies to elevate the property and build a storm water management system.

[StevenRocks]

Its more about the decisions that were made that led to the problem. Its not just CVM but each apartment, office building or hotel that was built along with their respective parking lots with no regard for storm water management. The Costco is probably required by new ordinances/legislation/insurance companies to elevate the property and build a storm water management system.

Storm water management is a big deal for all cities. I agree that a comprehensive plan to deal with impervious surfaces contibuting to flooding needs to be encated by the City of Raleigh, but it's not an issue that begins or ends with Crabtree.

[Subway Scoundrel]

You have obviously never lived in or appreciated a lively urban city where adults and youth enjoy a pedestrian environment and "hang out" in restaurants, shops, bars, art galleries, etc. To suggest that people want condos that are detached from an urban environment and merely access it by car is not what I have experienced. Maybe this is true in Raleigh, but certainly not the cities I've lived in. People move to urban locations because they enjoy its density and street level access to amenities.

And yes, sadly, developers often misinterpret the market and invest where they should not have.

Sorry, wrong....... lived in DT Charleston for 4 years and have traveled the world. And stayed in Shanghai Pudong district for 3 months a few years back.

Agree that "People move to urban locations because they enjoy its density and street level access to amenities" but the the main part of this property will be a hotel and I believe the condos are there to stablize the finances. JMHO

[thewhister]

The N&O had a good feature on the Crabtree Creek in today's paper.