Minimum Wage

[Sundodger]

What I find offensive about the issue is the spin that these minimum wage earners are greedy troublemakers out to destroy small buisness. That is not true...they are people who need to make a bit of money to pay their bills.

And when you raise minimum raise, there is less jobs; so no money to pay the bills for the unlucky who get fired. Meanwhile some teenagers get to live large. Look at the minimum wage earners stats sometime.

Raising the minimum wage = bad for everyone. It is a shame certain people use this as their annual election year issue.

Also what I would love to see is that the feds quit with this global economy bullcrap and NAFTA etc. as well as bring back early 20th century style trade tariffs.

Great, so we can have another great depression. You arm chair economists are waaaaaay off base here.

[Cadeho]

Again, lower minimum wage to 50

[damus]

Again, lower minimum wage to 50

[Cadeho]

But what I see is if you raise it, then the end of the world will result and then you argue they don't deserve it. If I say lower it, people will be worse off. You can still make more than minimum, be great at your work, and still never make it. You can also try for better jobs and still never get there, even with the best of skills and persistence and whatever. Hard work determines nothing these days, luck does.

[damus]

Hard work determines nothing these days, luck does.

Not really. They say "work smarter, not harder". Doesn't it make sense? I'm making more than the kids I went to high school with who bust their butts every day.. and all I do is walk around and fix people's computer problems, and if I can't I send in a help desk ticket.... Not hard to me. Luck has always meant something, but you usually don't hit it big if you don't try. You usually don't even get to be the manager of Wendy's if you don't try. Effort is important.

[Snowguy716]

If we ditch welfare for private charity, the people who really need the assistance aren't gauranteed it.

I say this because my family receives a small amount of social security disability because my mom is permanently disabled, cannot walk or use her left arm. She is virtually unemployable. She has also received food stamps in the past when financial times were rough.

Luckily my step-dad works very hard installing computer/cash register systems at different stores all over Minnesota/Wisconsin. But my mom still counts on that social security to help pay for the groceries.

And I don't want to hear "Well, you should spurn the cable TV and internet and get rid of the welfare" because my mom worked damned hard for 20 years before she had a freak medical accident. She is entitled to every measly penny she gets. She worked her way up from working in a nursing home, wiping old men's a$$es for years and eventually building and operating a successful resort before being forced to sell it due to her disability.

There are people out there who deserve it. And there are people out there that are truly broken and hopeless... Working as a cashier, I've never seen more people embarrassed or ashamed than the ones that pay with food stamps. Most of these people are single mothers with children that are already working but couldn't goto college because she couldn't afford that and take care of a child.

I think your one-size fits-all, all welfare recipients are just lazy people who don't want to work is completely flawed and is a horrible insult to all the people out there that do work their butts off but still can't make it for whatever reason.

It's not a dog-eats-dog world out there.. it's a "powerful people take advantage of the powerless and hopeless and turn those in the middle against the lower ranks so they can get even more money" world.

And did you ever think of it this way:

Those genius' out there are smart enough to find their own way to success. The "pregnant peppermint" is the one who probably needs a little guidance and a helping hand. After all, it's not like she went out with the goal of getting pregnant and stealing "your" hard earned dollars.. and if you think that, than I feel sorry for you.. you must truly be miserable.

[damus]

If we ditch welfare for private charity, the people who really need the assistance aren't gauranteed it.

I say this because my family receives a small amount of social security disability because my mom is permanently disabled, cannot walk or use her left arm. She is virtually unemployable. She has also received food stamps in the past when financial times were rough.

Luckily my step-dad works very hard installing computer/cash register systems at different stores all over Minnesota/Wisconsin. But my mom still counts on that social security to help pay for the groceries.

And I don't want to hear "Well, you should spurn the cable TV and internet and get rid of the welfare" because my mom worked damned hard for 20 years before she had a freak medical accident. She is entitled to every measly penny she gets. She worked her way up from working in a nursing home, wiping old men's a$$es for years and eventually building and operating a successful resort before being forced to sell it due to her disability.

There are people out there who deserve it. And there are people out there that are truly broken and hopeless... Working as a cashier, I've never seen more people embarrassed or ashamed than the ones that pay with food stamps. Most of these people are single mothers with children that are already working but couldn't goto college because she couldn't afford that and take care of a child.

I think your one-size fits-all, all welfare recipients are just lazy people who don't want to work is completely flawed and is a horrible insult to all the people out there that do work their butts off but still can't make it for whatever reason.

It's not a dog-eats-dog world out there.. it's a "powerful people take advantage of the powerless and hopeless and turn those in the middle against the lower ranks so they can get even more money" world.

And did you ever think of it this way:

Those genius' out there are smart enough to find their own way to success. The "pregnant peppermint" is the one who probably needs a little guidance and a helping hand. After all, it's not like she went out with the goal of getting pregnant and stealing "your" hard earned dollars.. and if you think that, than I feel sorry for you.. you must truly be miserable.

I don't think anyone is saying we need to ditch the safety net for people who really need it. I agree with most of what you said, and I don't think many people in America would favor getting rid of the safety net completely. There seems to be a lot of people stuck between the safety net and dead-end low-wage jobs. There are certainly problems with a lot of people who collect welfare, and while I understand that most of them probably are ashamed, that's not always the case. A month ago or so I was stuck behind a welfare family in the "10 items or less" line, and their cart was full. The mom said it was "ten items per person", and the cashier didn't want to get involved, so I bit my tongue as I know where these arguments end up going (nowhere). It was towards closing so there were two lines open, and since this was the express line I should have been able to buy my bag of cracker jacks and go within a few minutes. I don't know about in other states, but in CT we do not see stamps anymore, they use gold EBT cards that unless you look carefully or already know what they look like you wouldn't know, so a lot of the public embarassment has been lessened. This family was obnoxious in line, and took the time to read up the tabloids while in line and then talk (or should I say shout) to each other about the celebrities in the magazines. They were the stereotypical welfare family.

I think I laid out why I think most able bodied people fail to get past the minimum wage above. In addition to the "incredible stupidity, drug use, crinimal record, lack of ambition, or a combination of the above" of many of those stuck at the bottom who never even get into management positions at fast food or retail establishments, there are those who have kids before they can afford them. I don't think they're out to get our money and live off welfare, but I do think their behavior is pretty reckless. Why is it that the poorest people in this country still have the most children? There is no farm to take care of, anymore, and kids simply put a huge strain on current finances and time that could otherwise be spent gaining skills or working a second or third job.

I said it once, and I'll say it again, a lot of the low-wage workers that are older simply don't need or don't care to make more money. A lot of them are collecting pensions, and some were laid off and have a spouse who works a "real job", some are "in transition". There really isn't much stress in a low income job, you simply do your work and don't habitually call out or steal or anything and you're a great employee. A lot of people like that aspect.

(Almost) anyone who wants to move up the ladder can by just living a straight and narrow life, learning their job well, and taking opportunities as they arrive. Fast food and retail management are great ways; Walmart store managers typically don't have a college degree yet they average 6 figures, and there are dozens of other, lower paid (but definately enough to live on) managers that work in each store. There's the military and security companies; shift supervisors in the security companies I've worked for (three) while in college start at around $15/hr, site managers make close to $50k, and I don't know what regional managers make. This path, again, takes no training. You need to pass a background check and a drug test to start at the bottom making around $10/hr or $21k per year with tons of overtime opportunities. In my town there is a public high school that provides free vocational training to any student who wants to attend. Other than the rare cases of people who are incapable, most people at the bottom simply fail to take advantage of the opportunities that are out there.

[Snowguy716]

I don't think anybody is advocating welfare abuse. I certainly am not. And having children at 17 or 18 or whatever can be pretty wreckless..

But where I get fed up with many conservatives in this country is that they first of all want to end abortion. Just make it illegal.. and then also want to cut welfare. It's a way of thinking that I simply don't understand. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

There are plenty of people out there that may simply not want to work at a fast food restaurant or in retail. Maybe they just don't have what it takes or maybe they just can't do it. There should be opportunities for them to get an education to do what THEY want even if they have mouths to feed.

I'm all for helping people help themselves.. but don't pull the rug out from under them and then scorn them for falling!

But yeah, no one's mind is going to change. In fact, you'll probably just log off today more set in your ways, just I have probably been.

Oh, and Damus, we don't have food stamps. We have EBT cards as well that have two separate accounts on them (one for food and one for cash for people who qualify for both).

[runawayjim]

my take on minimum wage... from an economic/free market standpoint, it's bad for the economy. i think we've seen what it's done. it gives companies reason to increase the cost of their goods and services. it forces many places to hire illegals paid under the table at wages less than minimum. the reason being that there are people willing to work for less than minimum wage.

my issue with congress... continued increase in their own salaries (which is ridiculous because they don't have to live such lavish lifestyles considering most of their constituents are middle class and paying their salaries while they work their butts off just to pay their mortgage and put food on the table for their kids). they raised their salaries and voted against raising the federal minimum wage (which i am still unsure what it's for since most states have set theirs above the federal level).

as for lifers on welfare... they've moved to RI where there's a longer allowed period that you can be on it, at least compared to the neighboring states.

when i started working, i was making minimum wage. but i had skills that employers wanted and i made more especially when my responsibilities increased. that should be what most people should be striving for anyways, increased responsibility adn skill level and upward mobility. unfortunately, that's just not the case. many don't want that because they don't want the responsibility (or they think they do and can't handle it). in those cases, they should not be making higher wages if they can't handle the responsibility or prefer to stay at the level they're at. all that being said... you can get jobs that start higher than minimum wage, mcdonald's was an example... most grocery stores start higher than minimum (even for baggers and cart retrievers). then there's bussing tables... those might start at minimum, but you get tipped out from the waitstaff, giving you more than minimum in the end (i did that and would come home with $50 in cash a night after working 6 hours... in addition to my hourly wages... minimum wage then was $4.25)

[Inkdaub]

Moonshield is cracking me up.

[torgo]

I don't think anyone has a problem with welfare, food stamps, or any other government programs going to people who genuinely need a helping hand. But, like most people, I have a big problem with people who are unwilling to help themselves. We have EBT cards here too, and it is startling how many times I see someone buying a bunch of groceries on an EBT card, then pulling out a huge wad of cash to pay for his half-gallon of Jack Daniels in a seperate transaction. (Yes, I have witnessed this on more than one occasion)

I think minimum wage is all well and good for the most part. I dont like federal regulation of it though. 5.15 a hour wont pay for squat in, say, Los Angeles, but it will pay the rent in northern Michigan. So if we have minimum wage, I say let the idiots in our state government determine what is appropriate instead of the idiots in Washington DC.

Aside from those who are physically or mentally unable to work, nearly everyone has the opportunity in this country to make a decent life for themselves, but you have to make smart choices and set priorities. If you poor, give up the dish network and get basic cable. Give up smoking. Stop drinking. If its possible, take the bus so you dont have the burden of car payments, insurance, gas and maintenance. I'll never understand it when someone is buying a carton of cigarettes or a bottle of booze and complaining about not having enough money for food, gas or rent. Most people don't mind paying for someone's food, clothing, or part of their rent. But many people would mind paying for someone's brand new jet ski or their satellite TV.

Nearly every able bodied person can make a decent living if they show up on time at their job every day and work hard at it.