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Hillsborough Street - NCSU Area developments


orulz

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  • 1 month later...

Updates along the NCSU stretch....the building at the old Jackpot site is coming out of the ground...Aloft is topped out and filling in....Two Guys/Brothers buildings are gone and piles are being driven for what I presume is the planned 7 story building there....the site at the corner of Dan Allen across from Wolf Mart is coming out of the ground and of course the whole Valentine Commons project is topped out and bricking up. 

 

I'm still amazed at just how fast Hillsborough St has changed along the NCSU stretch (I consider that from the Morgan roundabout to Gorman) and right or wrong, better or worse, it should be probably be studied as a case in point regarding evolving downtowns, university front doors, how City's and University's can work together on stuff etc etc. I think others would interested to see and learn what all transpired here. 

It is also an interesting counter point to Centennial Campus. Which is also considered a successful public/private project in its own right, yet entirely different in its feel, form and function. 

Any urban planners out there...?

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I'd like to see what happens to more and more of the older retail fronts on Hillsborough street as new retail space comes online in some of these new projects.  The ridiculous rents that some of those out of town building owners have been charging will probably have to start decreasing or they'll actually have to start caring more about their buildings to justify rental costs.

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Interesting quote from Eric Lamb that confirms what many people have said all along, namely that the City wants to eliminate Hillsborough as a through-route. Problem is, all that traffic went somewhere. They've made the problems on Western Blvd and Wade Ave even worse. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hillsborough Street news last night from the City Council. 

 

  • APPROVED and moving forward:  Phase 2 Road & Streetscape Project (roundabouts at Brooks, Dixie, & Shepard/Rosemary)
  • APPROVED:  Parking lots at Bell Tower Oberlin roundabout is rezoned to allow 4 floors/62 feet on the North side of Pullen Rd and 5 floors/75 feet on the large lot right at the main circle. (1912 Hillsborough, Z-31-14)  Property Owner is NC State, and rezoning applicant is same developer as the Aloft Hotel in construction.
  • HELD for 2 weeks:  2.2 acres on Hillsborough between Montgomery & Furches for 4-5 floors and 150 residential units.  I believe residents have enough signatures against the rezoning that the council needs 6 of the 8 votes.  Instead for just the regular 5 votes to pass.  (Z-35-13)
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Do you know if the 4 story rezoning area is where that last old house stands on Ferndell? That would suck since its in good shape and we'd be losing yet another original Hillsborough st area house. 

 

No, just the parking lots.  To the east, and directly south across Pullen Rd.  Someone should develop that gravel lot at the end of Ferndell into a group of townhomes similar in style to compliment that house.

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Cool. Just read the article in the N&O and they said that lot would be left alone anyway. There is definitely some infill potential in there. I've always hoped those frats would move out of Maiden too and those old houses, some having some victorian features, would be rehabbed and it be a nice family street again. The Sigma Chi house is an awesome for example. As are these two with East Lake style porches. 

Edited by Jones_
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<p>

Hillsborough Street news last night from the City Council.

  • APPROVED and moving forward: Phase 2 Road & Streetscape Project (roundabouts at Brooks, Dixie, & Shepard/Rosemary)
  • APPROVED: Parking lots at Bell Tower Oberlin roundabout is rezoned to allow 4 floors/62 feet on the North side of Pullen Rd and 5 floors/75 feet on the large lot right at the main circle. (1912 Hillsborough, Z-31-14) Property Owner is NC State, and rezoning applicant is same developer as the Aloft Hotel in construction.
  • HELD for 2 weeks: 2.2 acres on Hillsborough between Montgomery & Furches for 4-5 floors and 150 residential units. I believe residents have enough signatures against the rezoning that the council needs 6 of the 8 votes. Instead for just the regular 5 votes to pass. (Z-35-13)
I sure hope the council approves Z-35-13. I understand the "family home" aspect of the argument, but the area is right between NCSU and Meredith that continue to grow with a need for housing. These people live by the largest university in the state, what do they expect?? If the city council disapproves the zoning request it will set precedent for the area and give all of the non-progressive citizens more of a reason to show up for every single zoning request.

I hope they approve the request

Edited by BHennington
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It will certainly not get approved without additional concessions from the developers, as three councilors mentioned their misgivings about the project.

 

I seem to recall reading/hearing that the neighborhood are requesting a height reduction from 4-5 stories to 3-4 stories and a unit reduction from 150 to 120, and specifically requesting that retail should be included. That seems more like a reasonable request than outright NIMBYism to me.

 

However, I can't find the reference and I just listened to that whole section of the council meeting and I didn't hear it so I am wondering if I just hallucinated it?

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I sure hope the council approves Z-35-13. I understand the "family home" aspect of the argument, but the area is right between NCSU and Meredith that continue to grow with a need for housing. These people live by the largest university in the state, what do they expect?? If the city council disapproves the zoning request it will set precedent for the area and give all of the non-progressive citizens more of a reason to show up for every single zoning request.

I hope they approve the request

This is a historic and beautiful neighborhood and was a mile or more from the University when these houses were built starting in the 1920's. The frat house, at a glance, is a veritable mansion and dates from about 1915 or so based on its architecture. I am mad enough about losing that building. If I were an owner there that had to look at the back of some terrible chain hotel I'd be super flaming mad. You see proper urban form does not mean you have to erase previously existing stuff and make it denser in every situation. I have pointed to Alexandria VA before, and will again as a City that got it right....historic core is entirely intact. Over the years, new development was added to to an expanding street grid and built tall and dense in some places, but single family housing tracts in others. Just because College Park is now inside the beltline and between two colleges does not sentence them to encroachment. If anything, they should be treated as a valuable oasis from the head crushing tumult of a college campus and drone of 70mph semis in the distance.

To be sure....I am not a NIMBY....but there are two competing idealistic extremes in play here....one of nothing can ever change (NIMBY) and one of robotic-modern-dense-out-with-the-old-so-we-can-be-a-relevant-City no matter the impacts or resulting living environment. They both fail to see the whole picture or acknowledge that a great City can, and IMO, should have varying densities, modern and historic areas and so on. 

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This is a historic and beautiful neighborhood and was a mile or more from the University when these houses were built starting in the 1920's. The frat house, at a glance, is a veritable mansion and dates from about 1915 or so based on its architecture. I am mad enough about losing that building. If I were an owner there that had to look at the back of some terrible chain hotel I'd be super flaming mad. You see proper urban form does not mean you have to erase previously existing stuff and make it denser in every situation. I have pointed to Alexandria VA before, and will again as a City that got it right....historic core is entirely intact. Over the years, new development was added to to an expanding street grid and built tall and dense in some places, but single family housing tracts in others. Just because College Park is now inside the beltline and between two colleges does not sentence them to encroachment. If anything, they should be treated as a valuable oasis from the head crushing tumult of a college campus and drone of 70mph semis in the distance.

To be sure....I am not a NIMBY....but there are two competing idealistic extremes in play here....one of nothing can ever change (NIMBY) and one of robotic-modern-dense-out-with-the-old-so-we-can-be-a-relevant-City no matter the impacts or resulting living environment. They both fail to see the whole picture or acknowledge that a great City can, and IMO, should have varying densities, modern and historic areas and so on. 

I am not out for total all out density all over the place, but the location for this proposed development project is KEY. We are talking about an intersection with 4-5 roads coming together 2 gas stations and an applebee's between two huge universities.. If the NIMBY folks in the "historic" neighborhood feel the need to pick a fight I am not sure this is the one. Development is good for this area and will continue. If the neighbors do not want this type of progress they need to sell ASAP because they are in the middle of a complete development frenzy. 

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I wouldn't ever let the presence of an Applebees dictate anything. Ever. If anything these three cited retail places indicate an immediate area in decline from a livability point of view. Why cave to that? On the other hand...in the other direction actually...Lulu, Nehi and Wilmont were all rehabbed buildings that maintain the character of this part of Hillsborough St nicely. I could just as well argue that *those* projects dictate that historic, character filled Hillsborough St should be maintained along this stretch by way of preserving these three nice sized 1920-ish bricks homes in some manner. 

And I'm not like this in every situation though I often side with history and my own idea of character. For instance I could care less about Brothers/Two Guys 1940's one story brick boxes. Existing commercial strips with modern spec buildings should be built up. Converting a historic residential strip into chain hell is precisely what you want to avoid if you want your older, downtown areas to be well...attractive. The 100-500 blocks of Hillsborough St would like to share a story with you if you disagree...

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I wouldn't ever let the presence of an Applebees dictate anything. Ever. If anything these three cited retail places indicate an immediate area in decline from a livability point of view. Why cave to that? On the other hand...in the other direction actually...Lulu, Nehi and Wilmont were all rehabbed buildings that maintain the character of this part of Hillsborough St nicely. I could just as well argue that *those* projects dictate that historic, character filled Hillsborough St should be maintained along this stretch by way of preserving these three nice sized 1920-ish bricks homes in some manner. 

And I'm not like this in every situation though I often side with history and my own idea of character. For instance I could care less about Brothers/Two Guys 1940's one story brick boxes. Existing commercial strips with modern spec buildings should be built up. Converting a historic residential strip into chain hell is precisely what you want to avoid if you want your older, downtown areas to be well...attractive. The 100-500 blocks of Hillsborough St would like to share a story with you if you disagree...

 

It's not the Applebees or the cited retail places that dictate anything. It does however lend itself to an area of high volume traffic that will continue to use the neighborhoods between NCSU and Cameron Village as a pass through from one point to the other. The citizens are concerned about traffic increases in their neighborhood, which is extremely unfortunate based on the location (For some). I do not see the area decreasing traffic by limiting this development to their "standards." it would not surprise me if the city eventually decided to connect the two segments of Clark Avenue in the near future to increase the flow of traffic through the neighborhood - to Cameron Village - feeding into Peace Street. 

 

I have yet to see any rendering of proposed development on the site. All I have read is the concern from the community residents. What if the development compliments the Wilmont with architectural characteristics that fit? Will this change perception of the project? A development of sorts will most likely be built in this location. Not sure that the community residents will be completely satisfied, but rather adjust to the changing landscape of the city. For some, this is the worst path that Raleigh could take, for others it is a sign of prosperity and progressive action to satisfy the upcoming generation that will ultimately cause the city to be successful. 

 

I will agree to disagree. Especially regarding the "historic strip" comment. What makes the homes historic? The historic nature of the area comes from the University, which was in place 30+ years before the 3 "historic" homes were even built. 

 

Development will come in and around the neighborhood. No doubt about it. 

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Watch the segment from Tuesday's council meeting and you'll find that even the neighborhood acknowledges that, even though there were many SFHs built along the lots facing Hillsborough street originally, the decades-old trend of redeveloping them into denser, commercial uses over the years makes sense, and will continue into the future. So nearly nobody is arguing that these houses should be kept and the neighborhood ossified in amber.

 

Mostly it seems the neighborhood wants this to be 20% shorter and less dense, and for it to have mixed population (not just students.)

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Yeah I know the neighborhood is taking the practical stance. I'm making the same arguments in other parts of town too such as Glenwood's trend of losing its original homes. 

But regarding Hillsborough st, I don't buy the argument that just because it happens to be a straight street that will actually take you across town that it must therefore get redeveloped. Monument Ave in Richmond would disagree with that and nobody would stand for a Hampton Inn going up along it. I realize perfectly well that Hillsborough St and Monument Ave are very different now, but its not that long ago that Hillsborough St was Raleigh's "best address". And it was that from the Capital all the way to the current Meredith campus. Huge beautiful mansions that would indeed rival anything in Richmond. Both are old money tidewater cultural cities. NC State's presence is also a weak argument to me. The remaking of Hillsborough St was clearly intended to undo the student ghetto it had become. And high student concentrations always become a ghetto. Yet they are being invited right on in again in even bigger buildings than before. The neighbors comments you point out, reflect this concern. But the City's posture should have been one that maintained the natural push for the growing university to do so along Western and Centennial blvds and an eye towards protecting the remaining historical neighborhoods in the area. Instead in recent years something like 25 homes from the 1920's on back, have bitten the dust as a direct result of NC State's reawakening in this area. One was even antebellum (1850's) behind Bean Sprout.  

Having said all this, I like Hillsborough St a great deal, and the new developments look pretty good. But overwriting the good stuff as inevitable is BS. Imagine if Western looked like the new Hillsborough....how sweet would that be? Prestigious University bounded on the north by a beautiful and intact historic district (most of which is gone of course) and on the south by a modern, dense, new urban boulevard. Instead we're losing the historical stuff, squeezing the new urban design into a space it barely fits in and letting Western be a suburban style disaster. Kowtowing to students and traffic is why that is the case and is why I called BS above. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here's a TBJ article about the purchase of some prime real estate on Hillsborough near the capitol and Glenwood South. It mentions they'd want to preserve the A&P spot...for a grocery? I'd like to see that facade taken down if they're going to keep it.

 

Is it just me or did that bldg look better then than it does today?

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Wasn't the 2007 "plan" a Bob Winston "I really still hate downtown" plan? Never was a plan. I never could find out what that old stone building was…an A&P is a bit of a surprise. That style stone was popular in the 1920's in Raleigh…I thought it might have been a department store that was pulling retail off Fayetteville but pre Cameron Village. Nonetheless, even as a vocal historic proponent, I don't see much reason to keep this building. It over wrote much older stuff, and is just a fairly modern, easily built with todays materials, sort of space. I'd be all for something more robust. I suppose medium to low density would keep the pressure off of ever dozing Dodd-Hinsdale or the Godwin houses. Anyway, I hope the slight momentum generated by State of Beer and Runology gets a boost by whatever these guys do. 

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I don't think of Hatem as unscrupulous at all. And I think he's been misrepresented on his statement too.....Fayetteville St is indeed a s&*^ storm and for many folks not a livable environment. Which is totally fine....but Hatem never intended for his places to be a frat boy, bro weekend party places....that's why Times doesn't serve Bud and Miller products. But I digress....Since Sandreuter developed Dawson, it seems like he'd have influence over the place to some degree still especially if he retained some units to rent, which would give him that many votes in the community at HOA meetings. I personally think 20 stories is fine here. 80....not so much...but alternating medium sized office buildings, hotels, little store fronts and historic houses, would make for a nice varied streetscape leading into the Capital from the west. I don't normally like setbacks, but I'd also make sure the 50 year old oaks along the street stay as is, since that is a big part of the character along Hillsborough. 

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