Hillsborough Street - NCSU Area developments

[DPK]

9 hours ago, Merthecat said:

Site plans submitted to the City for Clark Avenue Condos, a 5-story, 51-unit development on three parcels bounded by Clark Ave., Enterprise St., and Garden Pl.

I'm glad to see more condo developments in Raleigh, but the elevations included leave me quite unimpressed . . . particularly from the Enterprise St. side.

Heh wow... that takes out two houses on Garden Place.  Although I will admit neither of them are really of any historical/architectural significance.  It' s a decent sized development.

 

Site plan:
https://www.raleighnc.gov/content/PlanDev/Documents/DevServ/DevPlans/Reviews/2018/SiteReview/SR-035-18.pdf

[Jones_]

Hard to tell, but if it ends up looking like that office building turned condo building at the NE corner of Wade/St Marys it'll be ok. Neither house being lost is anything special, but we do lose two more affordable units from ITB. 

It's quite the mad scramble to assemble parcels for multifamily projects in this area now. 

[Green_man]

Rendering of 51 unit condo building at Clark/Enterprise/Garden.  From https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2018/05/02/51-unit-condo-project-planned-beside-cameron.html

[RALNATIVE]

8 hours ago, Green_man said:

Rendering of 51 unit condo building at Clark/Enterprise/Garden.  From https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2018/05/02/51-unit-condo-project-planned-beside-cameron.html

 

Can it get any more boring than that?

 

[DPK]

13 hours ago, Green_man said:

Rendering of 51 unit condo building at Clark/Enterprise/Garden.  From https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2018/05/02/51-unit-condo-project-planned-beside-cameron.html

Needs a dash more blah.

[Green_man]

Those green window box accents were much brighter on the site plan application. 

[Jones_]

It's way better than a Elan/Gramercy/401 Oberlin tiny window tan diarrhea box. 

[Green_man]

1912 Hillsborough Street:  The View on Pullen Circle.  35 condos (1 and 2 bedroom options)  https://www.theviewraleigh.com/press-release-the-view-on-pullen-circle-raleigh-nc/

[Jones_]

As long as they put something to keep cars from slamming into the building (those flimsy aluminum railings provide some crap false security), it looks to be a solid project. Retail would have been nice, but I suppose not necessary. I am expecting the  Scooter place, Subway, whatever they are now..Theory office...to be a redevelopment at some point with retail there. 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

4 hours ago, Green_man said:

1912 Hillsborough Street:  The View on Pullen Circle.  35 condos (1 and 2 bedroom options)  https://www.theviewraleigh.com/press-release-the-view-on-pullen-circle-raleigh-nc/

 

Finally.  A building that relates to the Circle.    Now, if we can get a building to relate to the Circle AND provide outdoor seating, we'll begin to realize the original vision for Pullen Circle.

[Tenkai]

This is the most recent site review that I could find for this property.  Things sure have changed since then (07/2015).

https://gsa.raleighnc.gov/smb/ptlprdapp1/PTLPRD/PlanDev/Documents/DevServ/DevPlans/Reviews/2015/SiteReview/SR-007-15.pdf

 

[orulz]

This roundabout feels like it *should* be a pedestrian focus but it's really awful from a pedestrian perspective. It looks like this development does absolutely nothing to improve on it. In a way I can't blame them for putting the parking facing the roundabout like that because the pedestrian environment is so awful. That said, I wish this were set back a little more to make the sidewalk wider.  The sidewalks are SO narrow. Literally like six feet wide, between a wall and a fence.

As time goes on, I'm hoping more and more that they either rip the roundabout or at least move the curbs out to where they would be if this had been built as a single-lane roundabout from the beginning.

[Jones_]

Demo fencing up around NC Equipment Co building. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Jones_

[DPK]

On 5/18/2018 at 5:18 PM, Jones_ said:

Demo fencing up around NC Equipment Co building. 

 

DO NOT WANT.   

[Jones_]

Also found this for the Clark St Townhouses

[DPK]

11 hours ago, Jones_ said:

Also found this for the Clark St Townhouses

All the links at the top of their site go to a web form asking for more information, lol.

[Jones_]

6 hours ago, DPK said:

All the links at the top of their site go to a web form asking for more information, lol.

Yeah that was lame. I didn't notice until after I posted the site link. Apologies for getting anyone's hopes up. Maybe since there are placeholders, they'll have some real info soon. 

As an aside, I've never seen so much obliterated all at once in my own backyard before, to be replaced with 5 new projects (that result is barely any more housing units) that totally rewrite the area's feel. I know it happened a ton when I was little or before I was born....but never seen it in my adult lifetime. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Jones_

[Jones_]

On 5/18/2018 at 5:18 PM, Jones_ said:

Demo fencing up around NC Equipment Co building. 

Goddam that was fast....it’s most of the way gone as if 1pm today. Get your last pics now (welders are once the roof taking down the tractor separately)

[Jones_]

Gonna stoke the rumor mill a tad and say, a regular at Cup a Joe told me the block adjacent...between Dixie and Daisy, was all purchased. Assume the fronting commercial  stuff, including Digitz and East Village. We shall see....my last rumor mill piece didn't quite happen (Apple announcement) but was supported by other 'inside sources' in papers. Looking at the County tax site, these parcels are being valued (and taxed) at about 2.5 million an acre so there is a ton of pressure being applied right there, to up the use from 1980's computer store and used car lot to something else. 

I don't care at all for those structures but think the County largely owns a lot of blame for these transitions along Hillsborough by smacking these huge valuations on properties just because they say so. Sure it's based on a comp, that is just because some rich a-hole paid that for it. It's all a flawed system. Anyway, I have it my head the Cup a Joe building will be doomed in my lifetime, which is the single worst outcome to me.  

Money is winning, like it always does. "make a place better" motive is losing to profit motive. 

[Tenkai]

Property records for that block are still showing deed dates from 1988 - 2010, all different owners. 

 

Does it take the city awhile to update the records?

[orulz]

Is Cup-A-Joe important because of the single story brick commercial building or because of the business within? I'm not so sure I would be too upset if the building went away and the business lived on in a new building.

While I am fairly upset about the Carolina Equipment Company / Lulu building, there's just something about single story buildings that makes me not care all that much. Aside from a select few buildings, Hillsborough from NCSU west has been such a "corridor of crap" for so long that it was overdue for a BIG change. I think we should be selective and only go to the mat for things that are really worth it, and if IMO there's not all that much that meets that criteria. Let's not forget that "preservation" is a favorite tool often hijacked by NIMBYs to squelch change and entrench themselves and their interests simply because they "got there first." If we allow overly aggressive preservation, Hillsborough will get preserved in amber as a corridor of crap for all time.

So what do I think is worth preservation from a historical perspective? Between Pullen and Gorman, aside from buildings owned by the university itself, not a whole lot.

1. The full block from Horne to Chamberlain (Mitch's, etc)
2. The two walk-up apartment buildings (Wilmont and the other one across the street at 3109, not sure what it's called.) Wilmont has been heavily renovated in the last 10 years or so and is probably safe?
3. Carolina Equipment Company - I thought this was safe when Lulu bought it, guess I was wrong.
4. Nehi Building - bought and restored by James Goodnight.
5. The well-regarded modernist building at 105 Brooks.

(Do you hate me now, Jones?)

[Jones_]

Cup a Joe and it's building are inseparable IMO. The huge windows out into the world, the interior mostly unchanged since its days as a strip club, visually impart what the business is...no frills, but open and welcoming to all. The building is vintage in it's own right and represents the original multiuse neighborhood that was originally built all along Hillsborough. It has pressed tin ceilings and a corbled brick cornice. It is nice. If it came down to it, you could build a second and third story on it (over it) and I'd be happy. If I win the lottery I may just do that. 

I agree there isn't much left within the bookends named. The other apartment building is called Fincastle. Also I love Reader's corner and the two houses next to it are the last two not slated for demolition that face Hillsborough in the strip you named...keep them too. 

Wilmont was bought to be saved and the owner said he wasn't making much money doing it, though at current rents I think he's making a little more now. I more or less had an interview with him about this to hear his intentions. 

I would also like to see one of the gas stations reused...J&J is the best one IMO when its porcelain panels painted bright red....but I am well aware each gas station took down some older building. 

I typically don't have much sympathy for modernist buildings....they are built with modern materials and techniques (so easily replicated) and often took out an older building, however the one you mention was built on a vacant lot, so sure, save it. 

Nehi is safe in the hands of Goodnight. 

Negative...I rarely hate anyone, and appreciate even-handed assessments. Believe it or not, I try to be even handed. I try to support my opinions of what is important with enough objective splinters, to at least make it something a court of law would have to consider. My objective go-tos are generally:

1) Importance of older structures is tied to availability of building materials in question and techniques used. 

2) You *can make your downtown area bigger. It *should be bigger.  The assumption that the only proper urban environment we'll ever get is a downtown is crap. The need to densify *in downtown, because it's the only proper urban area, is horsesh&^. 

3) Unchecked growth is not necessarily a good thing. Obviously it's chocked full of bad things...I don't need to even get into it. Loss of historic inventory is but one of those things. But it's ok to say NO to developments. If Atlanta and Houston want to choke on their own vomit, that's fine. We don't have to. Healthy and unchecked growth are not synonymous.  As a aside I am quick to check people that try to misuse the word "progress". It needs a modifier. Progress towards what? People should ask themselves. 

4) Plenty of Cities do a great job of protecting historic areas and accommodating growth at the same time. It's not a new concept. Many even force new buildings to incorporate old buildings already there. DC is full of these e.g. DC is growing crazy-go-nuts. 

Edit: As a way of making it easy to think about where to draw the line I have always used this: Anything and anywhere prior to WWI should be saved, full stop. This approximately coincides to the era before cars influenced development. Between WWI and WWII many things should be saved, but the 'burbs were materializing and transit and grids were changing. Case by case basis.  Post WWII, most things can be tossed. WWII brought on cheaper materials, far flung American Dream, Disney Land layouts dependent on vehicles. Delete and start over. 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Jones_

[orulz]

Adding some floors on top of Cup A Joe would be awesome, you got me there. That would be a super win-win. But would that be possible without tearing apart the interior that carries so much of the character?

And yeah, Cup-A-Joe would be one of the last places I would pick for a tear-down and redevelopment. But I just don't think I would say "No way, not ever" - especially for a building of decent quality (like Kane's Stanhope for example.)

I think it's very rare that you find a business that is completely dependent on a physical building. Clyde Cooper's moved out of their old building downtown and some character was lost for sure. The look is quite different. But it has character too. And more space. The new look is fine with me. Would Cup-A-Joe change if it moved across the street into the ground floor of "The Standard"? Sure. Some of the character would come with, some of it would be lost and replaced with new character. Would it be for the worse? Not necessarily, I believe that the owners and whatever architects and designers they hire could do a good job of it.  Pressed tin ceilings are indeed awesome, maybe they could be salvaged and used in the new location.

Anyway, change. Inevitably, some things will be lost, other new things will be created. Life itself is a dynamic thing. I firmly believe that our built environment should be, too. We should bring things with us from the past to remind us of where we were, and we should endeavor to see with a clear eye what the true impacts will be if something is lost. But we should embrace change. But we'll never reach our potential without change, without renewal, without pruning the old growth to make room for the new.

[Scotchman]

I have a different view on what to save and not.  If a building or site is where something of great importance happened (say Independence Hall in Philadelphia) , or is a good rare example of  exceptional design, then save it. A business can move to a new location, as long as not say Hillsboro St to North Hills. The  the interior decorations, the people that work for and visit the business is what makes the business. The building does not make the business unless it's  something like the fore mention type.  To put lot of importance on saving every old building or keeping every business in the same location is a great way to kill a city.  It may work in a small tourist related place like say Blowing Rock or even downtown Asheville ,where the whole town/city contributes to the vibe.   But for a rapidly growing city like Raleigh, saving every little place that someone wants to save just causes even more sprawl as development that would have happened in center of city gets pushed to suburbs.  As for Hillsboro street vibe, it died years ago.  JIHO

[Jones_]

4 hours ago, Scotchman said:

... just causes even more sprawl as development that would have happened in center of city gets pushed to suburbs. 

This sentence is not an absolute truth and really should never ever be the only choice we are given. We assume and accept that sprawl is a fact of life. I often point out that Alexandria VA kept almost its entire historic district intact and extended its grid out for high rises and modern office buildings. Even when things were sprawling from the 1950's to the 1970's, they left the downtown alone for the most part. If Amazon wants to move to the Spring Hill tract, I am certain we'll all be looking for ways to extend that downtown feel all the way out there. We should have been doing it already. Had cars never been invented, regular city grids would extend to the horizon. They were more efficient to live in and maintain then and still are now. People are flocking to downtowns everywhere because its better. Make more of it. Erasing cup-de-sacs is some change I can embrace. Eliminating the MLK/Western/S Saunders interchange is change I can embrace. Gridding the streets between South Park and Lake Wheeler is change I can embrace.