Hillsborough Street - NCSU Area developments

[Jones_]

That was good......submit that to the N&O and see if you can get the length limit waived.....it read like a South Park episode to me....if not the N&O somebody, the Indy maybe?

[sax184]

Bravo. Bravo! BRAVO!!

I think that you should get 5 people to go to a City Council meeting, and ask if you can pool your three minutes each for public comment into a 15-minute block, and then act this out, wearing big signs on front and back of each character, explaining who is who.

Alternatively, you could get a permit to act it out on Fayetteville St., as long as it's not too political...

[Spatula]

Let me ask the question for those who do not favor roundabouts--what is your alternate plan? Some roundabouts, some streetscaping, bury utilities, etc... To me the funding issue is the same--the city will have to pony up additional funds for all of the street, not just one segment, and it's going to be pricey to revitialize 3-4 miles of dilapidated street any way you slice it. Given the funding concerns, how do we address the revitalization issue?

I think they're doing the roundabouts wrong. They're not real roundabouts, but really just moguls in the street almost.

THIS is what a roundabout on Hillsborough should look like.

This simplifies Watauga Club, Hillsborough, and Pullen into one intersection around the bell tower. This eliminates two irritating intersections, and makes a left turn from Pullen to Hillsborough possible. The size of the roundabout also allows for two-lane traffic either way. The turns are also large enough to allow firetrucks and other service vehicles through. I would be okay with something like this, combined with a 25 mph max speed limit, and keeping traffic signals on the other intersections. This seems like the area on Hillsborough that genuinely needs a circle, and has plenty room to provide it without encroaching on university or business buildings.

[ChiefJoJo]

NCSU's Technician weighs in.

Two opinion letters:

One from a State student.

Another from University Park HOA Chair.

[ncwebguy]

I am not a performist by any stretch of the imagination, but will allow anyone to take my screenplay/whatever and do anything as long as there is some attribution and the resulting work is for non-commercial under the creative commons licence. And it can't be "edited" to the point of favoring anything other than improving Hillsborough Street.

Spatula's diagram is similar to an "ovalabout" that could be centered around the bell tower. But it makes no provision for Maiden or Ferndell (which could be closed) Lanes or a realigned Oberlin that could enter the area in Ferndell's current location.

As far as the links posted by ChiefJoJo, the student body president is crazy if he thinks the first roundabout will be done before students come back in the fall. Once the project gets council approval, there will be a bidding process, surveying, etc. Construction won't start in May 2007. Either plan so the traffic disruptive construction can start in May 2008 or accept that it will happen during the school year.

Technician's tunnel under Hillsborough Street idea is interesting, but where will the D.H. Hill library tunnel come out on the north side? The south side of Hillsborough slopes down naturally, but the north side doesn't. The only available space is near Wachovia/Pogue Street, and i doubt they'll give that up easily. To say nothing about how that project would cost. Tunneling from the North Hall lot diagonally to the west end of the Winston/Caldwell building could work, but would also be expensive.

From the University Park representative, the phrase "supported quality businesses" is loaded and subjective. Studio I & II, Hideaway, Brothers, and the Gelato Cafe (sign is still up) were quality businesses that were not supported by the neighbors. The same could be said for Mitch's, which survives on support from State students and alumni. When it first opened, the Five O (started by the same person who started the Rockford on Glenwood) was the Porters of its time. It had a kitchen and served lunch and dinner, but had the misfortune of becoming a wildly popular late night gathering spot.

As for her next to last paragraph, all of southeast Raleigh has asked the same questions for the last 50 years and is still waiting for an answer. There is no Cameron Village, Ridgewood, museum of art, Western Blvd, etc. nearby to fall back on.

The shooting nearby on Chamberlain (which was as close to Cameron Village as it was to State, but the media has portrayed it as an "NC State shooting") seems like neighbors being dumb. But the area near Logan/Chamberlin has been sketchy for as long as I can remember.

[Jones_]

I still say:

fund the aesthetics, burying power lines, brick crosswalks etc.

but for safety, just make Chamberlin and Horne egress only and remove the traffic lights (don't need them if its egress only). Put in a median ala Glenwood and Clark to further improve safety and aethestics. If DOT can be made happy with one lane in each direction...I think traffic will flow great with the traffic light removal and bus pull-offs on the NCSU side.....then go to one lane and diagonal the parking on the commercial side for increased spaces. You get:

1) Better looking street

2) More parking

3) equal or improved traffic flow (I think)

4) safer from an automobile/pedestrian standpoint (policing is another matter)

I think its a clean cut easy to sell plan

[orulz]

I still say:

fund the aesthetics, burying power lines, brick crosswalks etc.

but for safety, just make Chamberlin and Horne egress only and remove the traffic lights (don't need them if its egress only). Put in a median ala Glenwood and Clark to further improve safety and aethestics. If DOT can be made happy with one lane in each direction...I think traffic will flow great with the traffic light removal and bus pull-offs on the NCSU side.....then go to one lane and diagonal the parking on the commercial side for increased spaces. You get:

1) Better looking street

2) More parking

3) equal or improved traffic flow (I think)

4) safer from an automobile/pedestrian standpoint (policing is another matter)

I think its a clean cut easy to sell plan

Unfortunately this plan would be horrendously inconvenient from a pedestrian's point of view. The stoplight at Chamberlain isn't actually a stoplight for the street; it's a stoplight for the pedestrian crossing. Get rid of that, and you eliminate one of the pedestrian crossings of the street. And by getting rid of the stoplight at Horne, you get rid of another pedestrian crossing - probably the one that's most heavily used! That's a gap of 1200 feet, with no places for pedestrians to cross, right in the middle of the most built-up commercial section of the street, right across from the center of NCSU's campus. That's unacceptable.

We could put in some unsignalized pedestrian crossings, like Dan Allen (with "yield to pedestrians" signs) on Hillsborough Street with bulb-outs through that section instead of signals. That would allow students to cross, but does that increase or decrease the pedestrian/vehicle conflict? Will this bring Dan Allen's trademark gridlock to Hillsborough Street as well?

Perhaps the solution we arrive at will be something similar to Glenwood South, four lanes for rush hour, with time-restricted parallel parking in the outside lanes on both sides of the street.

[dmccall]

The more I think about my comment about having "a few" roundabouts the more I realize how idiotic that would be. I wasn't thinking about the fact that even 1 "roundabout" requires two lane traffic on the street. If you do one, you might as well do 9.

I like what Jones said above. What about putting in a 4-foot tall brown alumninum fence along the sidewalk on the NCSU side. Limited crossing accesses would limit jaywalking and reduce accidents. This is working pretty well in Las Vegas on the strip.

[ncwebguy]

The proposed plan only has two pedestrian crossings -- Logan (or the existing mid-block crossing near I love NY Pizza) and Gardner. Only two for the entirety of the roundabout stretch from Oberlin through Dixie. I don't know if it is 1200 feet between those two, but it would be a lot more than 1200 feet from Gardner to the west and Logan to the east.

The Logan *and* mid block signals don't both need to be there. I never figured that out. The busiest crosswalk at Horne would be a roundabout, with pedestrians waiting to cross the street until there is a gap in the free flowing traffic.

There would be *no* pedestrian crossing in the area near Dixie trail. This would be bad for the less than sober patrons of the string of bars from East Village to the pool hall. Though I doubt think the Hillsborough Street partners, Valentine, and/or NC State would shed a tear if they all closed down. I don't think that would be safer.

A slim median would remove left turns onto Pogue and Logan and from Horne and Chamberlain (which are illegal already). Make Brooks and Gardner a one way pair sout of Vanderbilt and the median can continue. This will keep traffic flowing through six intersections and remove five lights. Synched pedestrian only signals at Horne, Gardner, Dan Allen, and Dixie would allow pedestrians to the chance to cross. It disrupts the "go slow" but so do the pedestrian crossings in the proposed plan.

[Spatula]

You can have two lane roundabouts. The right lane just becomes right only. My diagram was a 2-lane roundabout, both ways.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Spatula

[Jones_]

Behind Cup a Joe on Hillsborough about 10 oldish stone and brick duplexes were demolished. They were in standard student ghetto state of repair but I always envisioned them being fixed up and sold as awesome entry level townhouses, I believe they were all 2 bed 1 bath, but instead Honeycutt Realty either demolished them or sold to a developer who did. Kind of like Whitaker Park apartments in 5-points that are also being demolished, everyone seems to know someone who used to live behind cup a joe. I lived both places....

Does anybody know what is going up in this area?

Edited January 26, 2007 by Jones133

[ChiefJoJo]

The Ral City Council plans to discuss the roundabouts again today. I saw on WRAL last night that the Planning Director (Silver) plans to unveil his plan for the street, which is supposedly more comprehensive, with an economic development component, at today's meeting.

Starts at 1pm at City Hall, and (usually) is available live online at WRAL's video on-demand website.

[ChiefJoJo]

N&O article on the new plan:

Planning Director Mitchell Silver recommended that the city create traffic circles, or roundabouts as they are commonly called, at the university's Bell Tower and near the intersection of Oberlin Road and Hillsborough. The plan would also build a roundabout at Hillsborough and Shepard Street to serve as "western gateway" to the stretch of the road that runs through the college's campus.

The recommended plan does several things:

• establishes a Business Improvement District (BID, similar to DOD) around the Hillsborough St area
  
• would construct the easternmost "project B" roundabouts at Pullen and Hillsborough St by the Bell Tower
  
• would build the western roundabout at Shepard St at a later date (when funding becomes available)
  
• would look at some type of parking reform that keeps revenues in the area, perhaps for financing future improvements
  
• recognized potential for long term transit connection via trolley or LRT to Glenwood South & DTR (there used to be one)
  

Notes:

-->economic development study focus showing western third as mixed use (Stanhope), middle as core retail area, eastern third as potential park/arts (Pullen, Little Theater nearby) destination and synergy with Cameron Village

-->area cannot accomodate additional retail with out new residential and parking

-->other property owners engaged about prospects of redevelopment--not just NCSU

-->western and eastern roundabouts give gateway to NCSU campus area

-->Project B adds 200 parking spaces where they are needed most (western section has more parking)

-->no median in this plan, there would be a center turn lane

-->if I understood correctly, no roundabout at Logan or Horne (those remove on-street parking spaces)

-->not known whether DOT will approve this plan

city's release.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's the Mitch Silver's presentation to council. Some good stuff on there.

[carynative]

I kinda like Silver's latest plan. Not sure why. I think it's because it creates definite gateways. I'd like to see the original plan in place, but if that can't happen, then this is a good alternative.

[DPK]

I concur, I like this.

[dmccall]

I like the east end of this. Shepard is a strange place to put the other feature roundabout, though. Is there currently a signal there? I don't think there is, so this roundabout becomes a nuisance to traffic. (of course it will be valuable if the Stanhope Village idea ever flies). It's just that those two side streets are SO minor. There could be no left turn signs at that intersection and hardly anyone would notice.

I think it would make better sense to take an existing major intersection and convert it to a roundabout. For instance, close Dan Allen at Hillsborough St. and reroute the traffic down the south side of Brooks. It can connect to the Dan Allen RR underpass easily at the south end of those buildings. (That could be another place for a roundabout: Yarbrough/Brooks/Dan Allen) That north half of Dan Allen could be swapped with NCSU and converted into a parking lot. At that point Brooks is a major intersection and a roundabout at Hillsborough makes a lot of sense. If NCSU develops the NE corner into a mixed use thing with a quarter-turn cut out of the building to match the roundabout, it could be a neat focal area for H St.

map it

Edited February 10, 2007 by dmccall

[Spatula]

Here's the Mitch Silver's presentation to council. Some good stuff on there.

This looks good. I can definitely get behind this.

[RaleighRob]

I think it would make better sense to take an existing major intersection and convert it to a roundabout. For instance, close Dan Allen at Hillsborough St. and reroute the traffic down the south side of Brooks. It can connect to the Dan Allen RR underpass easily at the south end of those buildings.

Last time I was down there, (correct me if I'm wrong, anybody), there isn't a South Brooks ave anymore. It dead ends into a new parking lot. Plus some new science and bio buildings are actually blocking what was Brooks's footprint.

But you're right...Shepherd is an odd place for a roundabout. I dunno if one could be put at Dixie or Dan Allen, but Shepherd? Odd.

[DPK]

Brooks is not a viable thoroughfare. As stated by RaleighRob, the street no longer cuts through to Yarbrough drive from Hillsborough Street. Even if it was, this would probably be a bad idea due to the number of Wolfline buses that use the current Dan Allen route to get to Founders Drive. There is alot of traffic that uses Dan Allen and I can see alot of problems with the combination of buses and turns involved in a realignment of what was Brooks.

Auto traffic aside, there would be slowdowns due to the shear number of students/pedestrians in the vacinity of Brooks.

[Gard]

I love Mitch Silver's plan. I was a little wary of the idea of putting in traffic circles and cutting the lanes down to two at first, but this plan seems to make it all work and add to the value of the street.

[dmccall]

Last time I was down there, (correct me if I'm wrong, anybody), there isn't a South Brooks ave anymore. It dead ends into a new parking lot. Plus some new science and bio buildings are actually blocking what was Brooks's footprint.

Ahh! OK. It is unfortunate how the south side of H St through there is totally misaligned with the north side of the street. I haven't been in that area in quite a while.

[Jones_]

I am looking out onto Hillsborough St right now from the Cup a Joe counter. This is no doubt a "village" area even if there are no Gaps, Starbucks or Panera Bread's to make it like a Brier Creek or North Hills. That acknowledged, Shepard has some logic as the west end of the area the improvments should enclose....to leave this village area out would be saying in a sense that it is being left to die....but there are storefronts that could hold businesses, and a couple of big buildings that are begging to be reutilized or redeveloped (e.g. NC Equipment Co.). I love how this area has managed to survive in its bohemian state without any such improvements, but am wary of the ever present tilt of some people who want it spead to 4 lanes at the expense of these gritty old storefronts....MS's plan would hopefully avert a rebuild to standards that resemble the part of Hilslborough down by Arby's, which is second class imo.

[RaleighRob]

^ Very true...that part of the strip definitely needs to stay on the city's radar as well.

I wonder if we could get LookOut to move back there. (Wishful thinking.)

[ChiefJoJo]

There is a light at Shepard, just at the Reader's Corner (there's an offset street on the south side, not sure the name), so I think it's a pretty good western end of the project. Also, the cross-section will be 3-lanes with this plan between the roundabouts east and west--the middle being a turn lane. Also, I think the eastern roundabout at the bell tower will be 2-lanes.