Hillsborough Street - NCSU Area developments

[orulz]

When this is done, I'm definitely not expecting to be able to zip down Hillsborough street anywhere near as fast as I used to. That's not necessarily a bad thing. A road designed for 35mph with a speed limit of 30 was clearly inappropriate for the setting. (For comparison, Franklin Street has a speed limit of 20). I really don't think this is that big of a deal. I might have preferred a design like Glenwood South (four lanes, with the outside lanes convertible to parallel parking off-peak) but the most important thing is that the improvements are being done.

I definitely agree about the island in the middle. I'd rather see a dense wall of shrubs about 2 or 3 feet high that can't be walked through, instead of a metal fence, but something to prevent jaywalking would definitely be nice. If it's just a concrete/brick island, then you're right, it probably will encourage jaywalking. If that is that case, I'd rather see them get rid of the island and dedicate the extra 7' to sidewalks or striped bike lanes.

I am definitely curious to see what they will do where the right of way is about 15 feet narrower, such as near Lulu and Cup-A-Joe. That area needs more work than anywhere else. The power lines are particularly bad there. The section by the YMCA isn't even officially part of the plan yet, but I hope it gets included eventually.

Hopefully, the rest of Hillsborough gets underway before too long.

[ChiefJoJo]

As far as the makeup of the project, recall that they did not have the 5 votes to proceed with multiple roundabouts and no signals, and it took this new design concept to convince Joyce Kekas to vote in support of moving ahead. Also recall that NCDOT signed off on the project, so they must have been convinced it would work on effectively for cars and pedestrians, and they usually err on the side of caution and conservatism on these issues. I suspect that lots of cars looking for a quicker trip through town will ultimately divert to Western Blvd, which is more auto-centric in function and appropriately designed for higher speed travel, and I would hope there are plans to permanently direct through traffic in that way.

After the project is complete, I believe the speed limit will be 25 mph. I've been told they will wait & see how this segment does in terms of economic development before they proceed with any project west of Gardner St, where towards Cup-A-Joe the cross section will likely be three travel lanes & no parking with the middle lane being for left turns only (also including burying of power lines, and streetscaping as well).

I view this project as being another positive step for Raleigh (after some of the steps made on some downtown streets), which until recently never considered a street a "place" for people and vehicles, but rather an artery for single occupant vehicles to slice through neighborhoods (or generate new ones in the exurban fringe) as fast as possible. Obviously, there had to be a lot of compromises to achieve some level of balance here on Hillsborough St, and we can argue about whether this project will produce the right mix and ultimately be viewed as a success. Beyond the details of this project, philosophically I firmly believe it's time for the balance to tip more towards building streets for people and less for cars, who have essentially had free reign on our streets for much too long.

[dmccall]

Perhaps the biggest selling point by designers along the way was that drivers would be able to make it down the street with a higher average speed (the original complaint with 1 lane was that it would slow everyone down too much). The roundabouts were the key component to that sales job.

What the city has bought, however, is half of a canoe. Either do the job right or just buy some bricks, trees, and speed limit signs and primp and slow the place down traditional ways.

One other safety issue that I failed to mention is the presence of J-walking pedestrians weaving through cued cars at the traffic signals. It happens on Western Blvd, and I just can't wait to deal with this on Hillsborough St.

[orulz]

One other safety issue that I failed to mention is the presence of J-walking pedestrians weaving through cued cars at the traffic signals. It happens on Western Blvd ...

I hate that. A metal fence of some sort definitely WOULD be appropriate in the median of Western. Where can I sign up to contribute some of my own money to that worthy cause? There's eventually supposed to be a pedestrian underpass at Western & Avent Ferry (Actually, maybe it's supposed to be a full blown interchange PLUS pedestrian underpass, not sure) but that's not going to happen until 2025 or so.

[RaleighRob]

If not a fence, then perhaps some dense, high prickly Holly bushes all up and down.

Edited May 15, 2009 by RaleighRob

[DPK]

Dear Idiot Drivers,

I'm aware that construction has started on Hillsborough Street and that lanes are now down to one each way in front of the block where Brueggers is. I'm also quite aware that the side street next to Brueggers has access to a parking lot. However, I can not rationalize your idiocy of causing a mile long backup because you want to make a left turn and feel like sitting there for 10 minutes while traffic piles up behind you with nowhere to go because you can't make your left turn due to oncoming traffic. There's nowhere for anyone to go due to the giant concrete barrier that exists now to the right. Go down further and make a u-turn somewhere and not piss off everyone behind you.

K? Thanks, bye,

DPK

[JeffC]

If you don't work AT NC State or right along Hillsborough street right there, why in the world would you be using that street as a route to go anywhere else? (and, in fact, if you work at NC State, why not use Western Blvd or Gorman Street/Sullivan Drive to access campus?)

In light of the numerous alternatives actually designed to funnel traffic downtown, noone traveling east/west in West Raleigh should EVER use Hillsborough Street as a through route, other than the groups noted at the beginning of this post. If the construction encourages drivers going from 440 and points west towards downtown to find alternate routes, it will have all been worth it, IMO...

[DPK]

If you don't work AT NC State or right along Hillsborough street right there, why in the world would you be using that street as a route to go anywhere else? (and, in fact, if you work at NC State, why not use Western Blvd or Gorman Street/Sullivan Drive to access campus?)

In light of the numerous alternatives actually designed to funnel traffic downtown, noone traveling east/west in West Raleigh should EVER use Hillsborough Street as a through route, other than the groups noted at the beginning of this post. If the construction encourages drivers going from 440 and points west towards downtown to find alternate routes, it will have all been worth it, IMO...

Wow calm down. So I guess I can't go to the YMCA then since I don't work there and it's not NC State. Oh well.

[Jones_]

The point is well taken that Hillsborough Street is a destination street, also read as local traffic street, and not a commuter street. For those coming from Cary to downtown, Western makes the most sense. For those coming from I 40, to downtown, Wade is a better exit than Hillsborough.

[dmccall]

If you don't work AT NC State or right along Hillsborough street right there, why in the world would you be using that street as a route to go anywhere else? (and, in fact, if you work at NC State, why not use Western Blvd or Gorman Street/Sullivan Drive to access campus?)

Why was there any reason for someone to need to drive down Fayetteville St.?

[RaleighRob]

DPK-- totally agree about the idiots holding up traffic making left turns. It's one thing if there were no cars behind them...but if it starts to back up, I say just give up and go make a u-turn further down. Crazy.

As far as the new purpose of that stretch of Hillsborough Street...it's going to no longer be a thoroughfare for its purpose. It will now be a destination street like Fayetteville or Glenwood South...aimed to handle cars that are heading to things on the street. (Ie, Hillsborough Street businesses, the Y, NCSU north campus, etc.)

If you're going from west Raleigh to downtown the obvious choices now are Western or Wade. (Or heck, even Clark would be an easier route probably! ) If I was at the fairgrounds, for example, to get downtown, I'd use Blue Ridge to Western and take that in....or Blue Ridge to Wade and use that. And of course, if I'm in Cary or RTP, I'd take I-40 till I got to the Saunders, Lake Wheeler, or Hammond/Person exits. (Oncoming widening of 40 will eventually make that an even better route.)

Granted, this may end up putting pressure on the city and/or DOT to make further improvements to Western & Wade to handle these cars, but that's probably another thread altogether.

[orulz]

If you're going from west Raleigh to downtown the obvious choices now are Western or Wade. (Or heck, even Clark would be an easier route probably! ) If I was at the fairgrounds, for example, to get downtown, I'd use Blue Ridge to Western and take that in....or Blue Ridge to Wade and use that. And of course, if I'm in Cary or RTP, I'd take I-40 till I got to the Saunders, Lake Wheeler, or Hammond/Person exits. (Oncoming widening of 40 will eventually make that an even better route.)

I would agree that Clark would be a great alternative route to get downtown... IF it had ever been punched through between Brooks and Dixie Trail. But since the connection wasn't made by the mid-1980s, it never will be - so it will forever be a poor alternative as a through route, except perhaps for bicycles. Besides, the intersection of Hillsborough/Clark/Faircloth/Gorman doesn't provide good access to Clark anyway.

I live very near to the fairgrounds. Right now, depending on where I'm headed downtown, I'll choose either Hillsborough or Western. For anywhere except Glenwood South, I take Western. For Glenwood South, I take Hillsborough. The most reasonable alternative would be Western->Ashe->Hillsborough, but Ashe can only carry so much traffic, and the left turn from Western to Ashe can be tricky during rush hours.

As for making Western a better route into downtown, there are plenty of possibilities. Besides the obvious one, widening Western to 6 lanes between Gorman and Avent Ferry, there are plenty of other possibilities too. The Blair-Hunt-Morgan connector is one. It would be expensive, but adds connectivity between downtown and west Raleigh. Another expensive one is TIP U-4417, turning the Western/Avent Ferry intersection into an interchange.

Brainstorming some more affordable improvements, the obvious targets would be the intersections at Western/Kent-Method and Western/Gorman, since those get quite busy too. Adding more dedicated turn lanes there would help a lot. All left turn lanes from side streets onto Western should be double-stacked. Maybe widen Method to have 2 NB lanes from Western to the Food Lion, allowing for double stacked left turns from EB Western to NB Method. I think adding more asphalt to Western is an acceptable trade-off for making Hillsborough Street more pedestrian friendly.

[DPK]

Clark is a good alternative to bypass the section of Hillsborough Street that is getting a facelift. You can pretty much take Clark all the way out to Peace, downtown, and the Krispy Kreme if you have to. Orulz is right that it will never get punched through due to the residential area that exists now a days. Especially since the majority of people that live in that neighborhood are anti-any form of urban improvements.

It's fine though, Clark should not be turned into a thoroughfare. That's what Wade and Western are for. Wade is aging however and will need improvements in the coming years. Potholes are forming and asphalt is is breaking up in a lot of places. It'd be nice if they could eliminate a few lights on Wade by adding a few more overpasses like the one at Oberlin.

Wade and Western are going to get pretty interesting. Western has had resurfacing within the past year which has helped. They really need to do something about the intersections at Western/Gorman and Western/Avent-Ferry.

Topographically speaking, Western is raised in order to match up with Gorman's elevation at that intersection. If you have ever been to the Wendy's at that corner and try to directly get onto Western from the drive-thru lane you have quite the epic hill to climb in a short distance there. To me at least, it would seem feasible to some how pass Western under Gorman there. Now what feasible is remains to be seen. The amount of grading work involved to do that would be surreal.

Edited May 19, 2009 by DPK

[ChiefJoJo]

^ This conversation about E-W travel to/from DTR simply reinforces the need for rapid transit in the corridor west from downtown parallel to Western/Hillsborough/Wade. Those streets are constrained in most cases, so there is little ability to widen them (even if it did make sense to do so). But, guess what? The NCRR is available between both streets, and there's a plan to build LRT extending westward in that corridor to/from downtown.

[DPK]

^ This conversation about E-W travel to/from DTR simply reinforces the need for rapid transit in the corridor west from downtown parallel to Western/Hillsborough/Wade. Those streets are constrained in most cases, so there is little ability to widen them (even if it did make sense to do so). But, guess what? The NCRR is available between both streets, and there's a plan to build LRT extending westward in that corridor to/from downtown.

That plan is more of a "I'll believe it when I see it" thing right now though thing for most people.

[Jones_]

It's fine though, Clark should not be turned into a thoroughfare. That's what Wade and Western are for. Wade is aging however and will need improvements in the coming years. Potholes are forming and asphalt is is breaking up in a lot of places. It'd be nice if they could eliminate a few lights on Wade by adding a few more overpasses like the one at Oberlin.

I know you were high when you wrote this. Putting in an interchange would require the wiping out of many houses anywhere on Wade...just like it did for the two that are there (Oberlin wiped out half of the Oberlin neighborhood and Glenwood wiped out homes along Nash, and all of Cole west of Glenwood). Wade started life as a tiny neighborhood street that did not go anywhere.

Topographically speaking, Western is raised in order to match up with Gorman's elevation at that intersection. If you have ever been to the Wendy's at that corner and try to directly get onto Western from the drive-thru lane you have quite the epic hill to climb in a short distance there. To me at least, it would seem feasible to some how pass Western under Gorman there. Now what feasible is remains to be seen. The amount of grading work involved to do that would be surreal.

Western, though was planned as a limited access road as part of the same system that would have included the north-south connector through Oakwood and the Ferndell connector. (and the creation of Wade as a throughfare too actually...Ferdell connector connecting Wade and Western)Collapse of those two segments of the plan though led to the de facto abandonment of making Western limited access. Edited May 21, 2009 by Jones133

[ChiefJoJo]

Bob Geary has a story on Hillsboro Street of old and new. Regarding the new, I'm glad to hear that NC State is talking openly about redevelopment of it's properties across the street, specifically North Hall, the Brooks lot, and even the strip mall next to Sadlacks. I did not know that NCSU spent $3M to purchase "troubled" properties across the street, including the strip mall across from the Bell Tower.

I have two minor quibbles with the article though. One, the YMCA does not turn it's back to the street. Appropriately for the context, they did not design store-front parking, but instead created a brick courtyard in front with a pedestrian-oriented street entrance just next to a CAT/TTA bus stop where patrons can enter. It just so happens that most people drive and enter from the back, so accommodations were made for both.

Second, I think it's an excuse to say that downtown & Fayetteville St had to come first. Hillsborough St has been in decline for at least two decades and there's no reason that justifies how the city ignored it's urban streets and spaces for the better part of 3 decades. Blame it on suburban expansion? No way. Other cities experienced the same trends and found a way to keep their key urban streets viable.

Also, check out 10 things you probably didn't know about Hillsborough Street.

[ChiefJoJo]

The N&O published an article about how many of the businesses on the street are suffering the triple whammy of no students, the recession, and the reconstruction of the street, which is in full swing. I think H-St is part of what makes Raleigh at least somewhat interesting, and it's one of the few historically urban streets we have outside downtown. So, if you have a chance, please go and support these businesses during a particularly difficult time.

[Captain Awesome]

The N&O published an article about how many of the businesses on the street are suffering the triple whammy of no students, the recession, and the reconstruction of the street, which is in full swing. I think H-St is part of what makes Raleigh at least somewhat interesting, and it's one of the few historically urban streets we have outside downtown. So, if you have a chance, please go and support these businesses during a particularly difficult time.

Maybe someone more in the know than I am can explain, but it seems that regardless of any other factors, the summer on Hillsborough St. is always lean. That's why established businesses plan for the yearly slowdown and new businesses use it as a time to tweak their processes before school gets back in session. And it's also why it is used for construction projects (the bus lane construction and the Electric Company Mall renovation come to mind)

The construction and the recession seem to be moot points when considering it is summer at State. The students that are not there aren't impeded by the construction nor are these non-existent students watching their wallets during the downturn.

I'm a state alum and I spent plenty of time working at businesses on H-st. When area businesses can, they will try to tie any external factor to the summer slowdown in hopes of getting extra support in during their normal slow months.

I'm not trying to be mean, but there is no need to sound an alarm for H-st - this is a normal marketing tool that they use every so often to bump up summer sales.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Captain Awesome

[RaleighRob]

I dunno, captain. I've been there a few times since the construction has started and many of the businesses are pretty dead even by summer standards. The summer students and faculty seem to not be crossing the street as much as they used to for lunch business, and the traffic/parking situation has gotten so bad that many summer regulars seem to be avoiding it purposely.

I've tried to get friends to eat there lately and made it a point to recommend they drive via Clark and park on the side streets behind the businesses. That way, they're more open to going there.

[orulz]

I head to Hillsborough pretty often, but always in the evening or on the weekends. Parking may be a problem during weekdays, but definitely not after 5pm. The lot at North Hall (which is open to the public from 5pm to 7am) is just as empty as ever during evening hours.

It is definitely inconvenient that some of the crosswalks are closed now, though.

Unfortunately it's painful for the businesses, but Hillsborough needs to be rebuilt, end of story. Hopefully the contractors can get this done ahead of schedule.

[Jones_]

I always wondered why landlords wouldn't be willing to help out some, with maybe half priced rent for a few months or something in situations like this....

[ChiefJoJo]

Maybe someone more in the know than I am can explain, but it seems that regardless of any other factors, the summer on Hillsborough St. is always lean. That's why established businesses plan for the yearly slowdown and new businesses use it as a time to tweak their processes before school gets back in session. And it's also why it is used for construction projects (the bus lane construction and the Electric Company Mall renovation come to mind)

The construction and the recession seem to be moot points when considering it is summer at State. The students that are not there aren't impeded by the construction nor are these non-existent students watching their wallets during the downturn.

I'm a state alum and I spent plenty of time working at businesses on H-st. When area businesses can, they will try to tie any external factor to the summer slowdown in hopes of getting extra support in during their normal slow months.

I'm not trying to be mean, but there is no need to sound an alarm for H-st - this is a normal marketing tool that they use every so often to bump up summer sales.

We are in a fairly deep recession, so it's not just a normal summer as you contend. My guess is that sales are down as compared to similar periods in years past, and not just due to the recession, but also the construction project, which has made parking and walking much more of a hassle, if not impossible in some cases. We know that the majority of people generally like the most convenient parking possible, and the street has never offered that even in good times, much less when most on street parking and cross walks are blocked. I fully support the project, but if you've seen the street lately, it's a mess. All I'm saying is if you like any of the businesses on the street, please consider supporting them during this difficult period.

[DPK]

It wouldn't surprise me if there's a drop in business. I work on campus and some days I go to cross Hillsborough Street to only be confronted with barricades and fencing that stretch from Pullen Road down to where Jasmine Bistro is off Horne Street. Today I was really craving an iced coffee from Dunkin' Donuts and had to detour myself an extra 15 minutes around construction just to get to the crosswalk at Horne, only to then have to walk down to Dunkin'. Rinse and repeat that walk and it starts to cut into productivity. So a lot of people basically debate whether the trip is worth it.

Personally I wasn't getting anything done without a caffeine fix today and it was really hot outside so I was committed. I did almost turn around when I realized that my usually 5 minute walk to and from Dunkin' would elongate to roughly 20 minutes. Time is money.

I support the chaos of this project though. Like orulz said earlier:

Hillsborough needs to be rebuilt, end of story

Edited August 10, 2009 by DPK

[Gard]

I always wondered why landlords wouldn't be willing to help out some, with maybe half priced rent for a few months or something in situations like this....

Because landlords are in business to make money, plain & simple. A number of landlords today are publicly traded companies, so they cater to their shareholders first & foremost, for whom they have a legal responsibility to, as prescribed by Federal Law. When businesses give to charities, donates water to disaster victims, or otherwise, it's because its either good marketing for them to get more people in their doors or they are getting a big tax incentive from it. Landlords aren't typically in need of marketing themselves, so that leaves only tax incentives, so unless they get an incentive from somebody, it's usually not going to happen.

As American editorialist, Ambrose Bierce, once said:

Corporation, (noun). An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.