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Hillsborough Street - NCSU Area developments


orulz

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That area is a constriction point of sorts....St Mary's, Central Prison, Governor Morehead School...they all take up space as institutions and produce little pedestrian activity themselves...all are very much self contained. 

As an aside, Aloft has first floor columns coming out of the ground already. Man Hillsborough St is changing fast....

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'd like to revisit the 1997 plan that included putting streetcars back onto Hillsborough and skip all the roundabouts except for the two (traffic circles) originally proposed at Pullen and Hillsborough (NCSU gateway) and at Faircloth/Gorman and Hillsborough (Meredith gateway). The original plans' rerouting of Oberlin (behind Players Retreat) seems to have worked well but wish they had closed off the leg from Groveland to Hillsborough as originally proposed for outdoor cafe seating in front of the PR and what was Darryl's. The streetcar part of the plan was for the rail to go under "Pullen Circle". The line would have started at Union Square and gone to the Fairgrounds and NCMA. The bulk of vehicular through traffic should be using Wade and Western leaving mostly local vehicular traffic to the Hillsborough corridor. Heavy ridership of an electric streetcar line is almost guaranteed at this point, and would help to focus highest density development at specific nodal points.

Edited by Berlin1926
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I'm a huge fan of more public transit - especially rail, but a streetcar line on Hillsborough is a terrible idea.  Who would it serve?  Students going from one end Hillsborough to the other?  Cary residents driving to a park and ride at the fairgrounds and then riding streetcar to downtown?  We really need to establish the 'need' for these transit or else it will get no support and negatively impact the perception of the fight for transit.  I think a light rail line along the existing railroad line would handle any of these trips along this corridor anyway.  And currently, the buses have been sufficient for the most part.

 

I think Hillsborough Street has been re-imagined almost perfectly thus far - with the only complaint that the bike lanes are soo narrow and right up against parked cars.

 

Oh and PR has tons of outdoor seating, so I have no complaints about leaving that road in place either (it also helps to divert some traffic from the large roundabout).

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Yeah streetcars are overkill for Hillsborough. Really what we need is the TTA light rail line connecting downtown, NCSU, the fairgrounds, etc. That's a better place to put that utility instead of a street that's already short on space.

 

Glenwood and Person on the other hand I could totally see it.

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Agreed; if there is light rail on the NCRR then streetcars are not needed on Hillsborough, especially involving an expensive solutions like tunnels under roundabouts.

 

Better bus service? Absolutely.

 

I for one don't really find that roundabouts live up to their pedestrian friendly reputation. I wish Hillsborough could be built without so many roundabouts and still remain a 2-lane street. But I guess it would just be a traffic nightmare. The one-lane roundabouts planned west of Gardner will be better than the massive atrocity at Pullen at least. I hope that after all the Hillsborough streetscapes are complete, the city goes back and does a road road diet at the Pullen roundabout, reclaiming some of the excess space for wider sidewalks.

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Roundabouts aren't pedestrian friendly. They move traffic efficiently for 1 and 2 lane roads. More efficient traffic means less gaps for pedestrians.

 

For that reason I oppose any further roundabouts on Hillsborough to the west. I'd prefer to just see curb improvements like the rest of the street. If all of those circles got built, traffic would be continuous with no gaps on Hillsborough, and that would detract from the pedestrian environment. I think the city needs to take a close look at what's happened with the Pullen roundabout--which is the antithesis of a pedestrian area, especially when the brick walls surrounding it are very harsh and ugly to walk past, sandwiched in a small area between the traffic barrier and the wall.

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Roundabouts aren't pedestrian friendly. They move traffic efficiently for 1 and 2 lane roads. More efficient traffic means less gaps for pedestrians.

 

For that reason I oppose any further roundabouts on Hillsborough to the west. I'd prefer to just see curb improvements like the rest of the street. If all of those circles got built, traffic would be continuous with no gaps on Hillsborough, and that would detract from the pedestrian environment. I think the city needs to take a close look at what's happened with the Pullen roundabout--which is the antithesis of a pedestrian area, especially when the brick walls surrounding it are very harsh and ugly to walk past, sandwiched in a small area between the traffic barrier and the wall.

Agreed. I jog through the Pullen roundabout regularly and nothing about it is pedestrian safe except the little wedge islands at the pinch points. Also I want to publicly bash the aesthetically designed  hollow black steel rail "separating" pedestrians form traffic. They are NOT a safety barrier and there needs to be a safety barrier! Cars wrecking in a roundabout hit the outside of the freakin circle and crash through that flimsy fence. I have seen at least three wrecked portions of that fence and people would have been severely hurt or killed had they been hit. The way I see it, the physics actually *increase* the odds of pedestrians getting hurt with the centrifugal force pushing cars outward. Put in some bollards or actual [pretty] guardrails for christs sake if you're gonna tout this as a better pedestrian environment. /rant

Edited by Jones_
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There's a rezoning application submitted to the city for 2304 Hillsborough St (Sylvia / Hot Box pizza building).  The description of the potential development is for retail/office use on ground and 2nd floor and then 3 floors of residential above.  New City Design Group is involved with this one as well (same group from basically all the current apt proposals on Hillsborough St).

 

While I like their other projects, I'd like for some variety.  Maybe something with a weathered brick facade.

 

Also, I can foresee parking becoming an increasingly tough issue to solve.  NC State has long mentioned in their master plan for a parking deck wrapped with office/retail uses on the North Hall lot - seems like no better time to move forward with this than now.  They could reserve a certain amount of permits for faculty, sell some permits to residents, and leave some spaces for hourly rates for retail users.

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I'm a huge fan of more public transit - especially rail, but a streetcar line on Hillsborough is a terrible idea.  Who would it serve?  Students going from one end Hillsborough to the other?  Cary residents driving to a park and ride at the fairgrounds and then riding streetcar to downtown?  We really need to establish the 'need' for these transit or else it will get no support and negatively impact the perception of the fight for transit.  I think a light rail line along the existing railroad line would handle any of these trips along this corridor anyway.  And currently, the buses have been sufficient for the most part.

 

I think Hillsborough Street has been re-imagined almost perfectly thus far - with the only complaint that the bike lanes are soo narrow and right up against parked cars.

 

Oh and PR has tons of outdoor seating, so I have no complaints about leaving that road in place either (it also helps to divert some traffic from the large roundabout).

 

 

 

I think that walking from Meredith or NCSU to Glenwood Avenue and Fayetteville Street is a bit of stretch (in the rain, at night, after work?) which is why there was a streetcar line along Hillsborough Street at one time.  What Raleigh seems to forget (when it comes to rail transit)) is that development FOLLOWS transit -- look at Charlotte.  If you buy the anti-transit/anti-urban argument that you don't have enough density to support rail, you'll be waiting for a long time.  The existing rail line running from Raleigh to Cary is perfect for long-distance and inter-city (commuter) rail but light rail?  No.  

 

I think Hillsborough Street is over-engineered now -- too many warning signs, yellow paint and signals.  And, if they build another "roundabout" you might just as well call it a traffic engineers' wet dream instead of a vibrant urban corridor.  Raleigh seems to be run by traffic engineers without any imagination -- it needs more creativity and spontaneity.  Instead of becoming more interesting, Raleigh feels more like a bigger Cary than a 21st city..

 

It's not like Raleigh doesn't have the resources, it just lacks an exciting vision and the will to get anything done.  TTA?  Really?  I've been waiting for 25 years for rail transit in the Triangle but they're still talking about station locations and RTP is still a giant suburban office park with no center.  Look at what Charlotte, Austin and and even Nashville have done in the last 25 years and Raleigh just isn't in the same league and, it should have been. Glenwood Avenue, a few pockets downtown and a corner at Cameron Village just can't compare to the urban energy of so many other cities that have far less intellectual and financial capital than Raleigh

 

Maybe Raleigh will aspire to be more than a suburb in the next 25 years.

 

 

Edited by Berlin1926
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Well Berlin, nothing you said changes my opinion that we do not need a streetcar line along Hillsborough St.

1) a light rail line along the train tracks will sufficiently handle the trips --- and I think will spur development as you hope.  have you seen the proposed station locations?

2) if the envisioned monorail happens, even less need for a streetcar

3) why can't there be roundabouts AND it be a vibrant urban corridor?  I don't think those two are mutually exclusive.  Have you seen all the proposed developments?

4) it appears you missed out on a lot of the progress Raleigh has made.

 

Looks like we disagree on just about everything except that Raleigh needs rail transit.  Hopefully the Wake County Commissioners and the NCGA will let us decide on this for ourselves at some point.

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I'm going to stay on topic...wait for it.  All three of these cities were much larger at the turn of the century than Raleigh and as such had bigger street grids and historical 'energy' from which to draw once the boom really took off. Austin and Nashville also had/have a larger historic building stock from which to get funky business started. Charlotte sort of went a different direction and chose to mow down the old stuff en masse and embraced huge corporations and a big city identity over the little guy. Nashville and Austin identify as homegrown at the street level in their own ways. Raleigh can't seem to pick either one and the discussions on this forum bear that out. The direction of Hillsborough Street also embodies the whole struggle of what will Raleigh become. The funk on Hillsborough Street is gone now and will never return. The old neighborhoods are either gone or being chipped away at. The small spaces for head shops, affordable spots for artists and the cheapest of cheap beer are disappearing. I like a lot of the new Hillsborough Street but think on some fronts it pushed too far. An Aloft next to the Bell Tower? Meh. Aloft doesn't say college strip. Sadlacks did though. Valentine Commons makes me mad every time I look at it. 

Berlin I'm a little confused by what city you envision because the Hillsbourgh Street changes have surely brought about the changes adjacent to the street you seem to like and talk up later in your post. For me, things like the Clark/Oberlin intersection are fine but not the best. Aloft is fine, but not where its going. Raleigh overshoots and jumps from nothing going on and almost unsafe to completely gentrified when it leaps. It overshoots that in between sweet spot because it ignores and never really embraces the organic homegrown stuff. We have do have a decent amount by happenstance not because it is the feather in the cap. I think something like say CAM would be toast if Bank of America wanted to put a 60 story tower there (probably a bad example). So to tighten up my rant, Hillsborough Street's original identity is being overwritten and with that lost, it'll never be the "good" I envision, street car or not.  

Edited by Jones_
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Raleigh could be compared with Durham in much the same way as with Austin and Nashville. Even Durham is moving more towards gentrification by the day, but seems to be spending more time in the "sweet spot" between grungy/unsafe and fully gentrified. Why?

 

I would argue that the state of Raleigh's urban neighborhoods is not a result of the failure of the city to appropriately direct and control development to reduce gentrification and maintain funky vibes. Gentrification was inevitable. The fact that it has come so quickly is just a matter of supply and demand, and Jones touches on it:

 

Raleigh was such a small city before 1960 and its growth has been so meteoric since then that there really was never a whole lot of urban fabric present to begin with. Then, when the switch flipped in the early 2000s and urban districts and neighborhoods became "the thing", basically every significant urban district in the city, including Hillsborough, was fully engulfed by gentrification within a decade. Heck, probably every significant historic commercial building in Raleigh will be either renovated and gentrified or demolished by 2020.

 

Compare that with Durham. Durham's population in 1940 was 60,000 compared with Raleigh's at 46,000. It was also more of an industrial town with buildings to match. Since then raleigh has grown to almost 8x its size (12x if you include Cary) while Durham has grown to about 3.5x. It's really just that Durham has grown less and had bigger urban "bones" to begin with, so gentrification is taking longer. Raleigh was such a lightweight with only a few, small urban districts to begin with, and its population exploded so quickly, that there was really no way to escape the pressure of rapid gentrification.

 

Back on subject, I don't care for the roundabouts in the current design either. I would rather see standard intersections with stoplights, traffic congestion be damned. I still think that a streetcar, particularly one with extravagant tunnels under roundabouts and a relocated belltower, is not a good fit for Hillsborough. Light rail on the NCRR is in the right place (smack in the middle of campus, and 5 minutes walk from Hillsborough) and it will happen - just a matter of when. Until then, further enhancements to bus service on Hillsborough will be much cheaper and just as effective. Maybe even convert it to a bus priority corridor - make the NCSU busway bi-directional and put TTA and CAT on it, and put queue jumpers in everywhere else for example.

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Until RTP came along, Raleigh was basically an insignificant city. Yes, it had the state capitol and a few colleges, but in 1940 it was 6th in NC population behind Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Durham, and even Asheville. Wilmington was just barely behind Raleigh at that point.

 

Austin, Nashville, and Portland (another city Raleigh is often compared to) have been much larger than Raleigh all along. All these cities have more heritage to take advantage of than Raleigh does. That's not to say that Raleigh should not make the best of what it has, but comparisons are not always apples-to-apples. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

It seems that the 7-story apartment building where Two Guys is now at 2506 Hillsborough Street (called Hillsborough Lofts) will not have any EIFS cladding, which is a pleasant surprise to me. It will be clad in brick, metal, and concrete.

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Next up on HIllsborough Street is a rezoning for 1912 HIllsborough Street.

 

This is the parking lot facing the Pullen Rd roundabout, catty-corner from the bell tower, and next to the former Locopops/Dave's Dumpling and Noodle Bar/Player's Retreat.

 

The property is owned by NCSU but I seem to remember, this was also included in the same RFP that yielded the Aloft hotel. Furthermore, the contact person is identified with "Bell View Partners," the developer of the Aloft. New City Design Group is also involved.

 

The rezoning is to CX-5 would allow a 5 story commercial mixed use structure. No particular frontage was proposed which to me indicates that the developer doesn't really want to commit to a building with great urban form, but it will probably be OK since elsewhere they mention the building will be built up to the sidewalk. Most of the other developments proposed along Hillsborough have been NX-*-SH (neighborhood mixed use, shopfront) frontage. There are a number of differences in the uses allowed between NX- and CX- districts, but the only one I can find that is not also disallowed by conditions in the specific zoning request is overnight lodging, so that tells me they probably want to build another hotel.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I received a letter in the mail last week regarding an upcoming meeting to discuss a rezoning request for 255 Hillsborough St and 320 W. Morgan St. These are the parking lots that were previously owned by the Reynolds and the site of their boondoggled Reynolds tower.

 

The proposed rezoning request would zone this property as downtown mixed use, 20 story max, with shopfront frontage. The rezoning would also make the property subject to stricter design standards according to the city's new development ordinance.

 

The fact that this is happening so quickly leads me to conclude that a developer is ready to buy the property and is pushing the city to rezone so that they can build a substantial development. Unfortunately I can't attend the meeting, but am interested to know who the developer may be.

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The Hillsborough Lofts project - 7 story apt + ground retail: has the sidewalk overhead protection in place (shipping containers) and appears to be setting up for demo of old Two Guys building.

 

1301 Hillsborough:  site work is in progress.

 

Aloft:  framing the 5th floor.  http://www.truelook.com/clients/bellview-hotelaloft/

 

Between Furches & Montgomery:  rezoning request approved by Planning Commission, went to City Council yesterday I think.  This one on the surface appears to be more similar to the mega apartment complexes like 712 Tucker and less like the more appropriately scaled smaller buildings going up like 2604 Hillsborough.

 

Stanhope mixed-use:  I believe this one is topped out now.

 

Nehi building:  historic renovation completed.  Haven't heard of potential tenants.

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Between Furches & Montgomery:  rezoning request approved by Planning Commission, went to City Council yesterday I think.  This one on the surface appears to be more similar to the mega apartment complexes like 712 Tucker and less like the more appropriately scaled smaller buildings going up like 2604 Hillsborough.

 

 

I can't believe the community and historic folks are so silent on this one. This is largest and one of the oldest homes left on this end of HIllsborough St. Just glancing at it, it must be 3000+ soft and of late teens or 20's vintage. Just because its currently house does not diminish its value in the least. The Hillsborough St and Clark Street areas are losing original homes at a clip not unlike downtown in the 50's-90's. 

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Yes, of all the places on Hillsborough street for more student housing, I would've never considered this block.

 

If they are trying to tap into the Meredith College students looking for nearby off-campus living (which I'm not sure if this is a market for that or not), but seems to me a better development would be near Raleigh Brewing.  Maybe build a 4 story warehouse style apartment building at the storage unit site?

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