Hillsborough Street - NCSU Area developments

[architect77]

BIG BEN.... PARLIAMENT.....

[ncwebguy]

I was afraid the gelato cafe was going to bite it... I was amazed it lasted as long as it did! I hope Baskin Robbins wasn't its death knell -- maybe they can move to F Street?

I think "bookend" roundabouts -- an "oval" around the area of the bell tower (incorporating Maiden, Enterprise/Watauga Club, Pullen, and Ferndell/realigned Oberlin) to the east and one at Dan Allen, Dixie, or Rosemary/Sheherd to the west -- would define the area and keep out any traffic trying to get through too quickly. Hillsborough Street is already signed with a 35 mph speed limit, but few people obey it.

I'd rather have the real estate of a median be applied to the sidewalks, but a three foot wide (seven feet wide is too much) raised brick median to eliminate left turns. It would be interrupted at surviving intersections and mid-block pedestrian crossings. At the intersections, sidewalks would be exented into the on-street parking area to make the crossing distance physically shorter.

My "four way stop" suggestion was not for stop signs, but a traffic signal with a cycle that shows red to vehicles in all four directions. This gives pedestrians and walked bicycles the chance to cross without worrying about any vehicles moving. A stopped car is safer and less distracted than one going 20 mph with a roundabout ahead. This would be required for the Horne intersection, instead of yet another roundabout.

The Oberlin realignment article linked to a few posts ago was what I based the oval/roundabout on. It may have been start of the "roundabouts everywhere" discussion for the area. A lot of people got "roundabout happy" because Hillsborough Street is a state road, and it was assumed the state would budget more to test new traffic patterns.

The current roundabout project's price tag does *not* include burying utilities. By reducing the number of roundabouts, more money would be availabe to bury utilities, add landscaping (the few existing trees installed when McDonalds opened are ok at best), better stop lights (boom/fixed arm, or F Street posts on the side or in the median, with similary styled street light posts), and other improvements to make the area the destination it wants to be.

[RaleighRob]

I was afraid the gelato cafe was going to bite it... I was amazed it lasted as long as it did! I hope Baskin Robbins wasn't its death knell -- maybe they can move to F Street?

True...amazing they lasted as long as they did. F Street is a good idea. However, their sign says they're selling at Conti's. Which is great, but I doubt they'll have the later hours the H Street location did. Guess I'll do Ben & Jerry's down by Meredith (cuz Baskins ain't that good).

Hillsborough Street is already signed with a 35 mph speed limit, but few people obey it.

Right...that goes back to the issue of not enough police presense there (which is related to the aggressive panhandling). I mean, if they can set up speed traps on Capital and Saunders/McDowell, no reason why they couldn't on Hillsborough. And really, I wouldn't mind if they lowered it to 25 (or even 30 for that matter). Franklin and Ninth Streets are both 25 and it seems reasonable for a road with so many pedestrians. (Anyone know what F Street and Glenwood South are??) Edited December 9, 2006 by RaleighRob

[Spatula]

I have thought about roundabouts for a bit. After this, I have come to the conclusion that they only work in situations where there are four or more possible turns, but the vast majority of traffic is heavy on just one turn.

There's no good light cycle to deal with this situation. In this case, a roundabout does speed up traffic, because there's little competition for space in it, and the odd car coming out of the rarely used parts of the intersection won't have to wait fifteen minutes for their part of the cycle.

Another good place for a roundabout is one where a left turn is impossible with stoplights, because the angle is too sharp. Putting a roundabout there enables the left turn, since you're really just making three right turns to do it. The Dunn/Hillsborough intersection is a perfect example of this, and there will be a roundabout there. I'm content with that.

However, I don't want us to get into the habit of putting roundabouts on intersections just for the heck of it. Hillsborough is an important street for getting into downtown Raleigh, and crowding it with too many roundabouts to slow traffic to a crawl would probably hurt business downtown (and on Hillsborough) more than help.

[DanRNC]

Another story on this. Isley looks like he just fell out of bed and looks and sounds completely clueless. Its amazing how much air time this clown gets.

WRAL story

[Transplant]

Another story on this. Isley looks like he just fell out of bed and looks and sounds completely clueless. Its amazing how much air time this clown gets.

WRAL story

I keep scratching my head on this. If it is a through-put issue, why not make the parking lanes through lanes during rush hour. Its done in the Five points area.

[dmccall]

Another story on this. Isley looks like he just fell out of bed and looks and sounds completely clueless. Its amazing how much air time this clown gets.

WRAL story

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Just because he had a hat on doesn't mean he just rolled out of bed. I think he and everyone else are concerned about what would happen if the number of lanes on H-St are cut in half. In fact, expansion of a two-lane road to four lanes more than doubles the road's efficiency. The inverse is true, too.

This is a very complex question. If the same number of cars each way are squeezed into one lane, even without traffic lights there possibly will be so much congestion that cars opt for alternate routes. Are those routes (Western, Clark, Wade) able to handle it? We've pondered these questions for months. I think its fair to allow the people making the decision to ponder them as well.

[RaleighRob]

I keep scratching my head on this. If it is a through-put issue, why not make the parking lanes through lanes during rush hour. Its done in the Five points area.

Well, yes and no. As it is now, the eastbound lane of Hillsborough is already available to parking on nights and weekends. But all day on weekdays it needs to stay open to traffic, I think, due to buses mostly. Well, that and the fact school runs all day.

[ChiefJoJo]

The council delayed a decision once again today on this project. I watched a bit of the council meeting today and Kekas held things up by questioning the parking space issue--how many lost vs created and in which locations. She wanted an independent study of the plan/project and it's impacts.

Stephenson made a good point that this has been a long planning process going back to '99 and no other plan has come forward with so many backers in the community, university and technical consultants that addresses parking, streetscape, ped friendliness/safety, local businesses, and traffic. Apparently even DOT has bought into this plan.

I'm afraid this will be a case of analysis/paralysis.

[ChiefJoJo]

WRAL story on the stalled plan...

[RaleighRob]

BTB's post is a good one....well worth the read.

The WRAL article says Meeker believes he has 4 votes so far but needs a fifth.

I think it's clear he, Crowder and Stephenson support it...and maybe West is the fifth?

Kekas is the obvious "swing" vote on it..and I think BTB is right in that we need to remind her that a huge chunk of her base supports this and would keep in mind how she votes on this when the election comes up this fall.

Time to get some emailing/letter-writing done I'd say.

http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt...cts_and_Me.html

Edited January 10, 2007 by RaleighRob

[dmccall]

For the life of me I can't figure out how the "liberals" all want to vote for funding this, against NHE, and for TTA rail while the "conservatives" want to vote against funding this, for NHE, and against TTA. It seems like everyone is all over the map. But...at least they are together!

[RaleighRob]

For the life of me I can't figure out how the "liberals" all want to vote for funding this, against NHE, and for TTA rail while the "conservatives" want to vote against funding this, for NHE, and against TTA. It seems like everyone is all over the map. But...at least they are together!

Oh that's easy to explain....NHE benefits an already-wealthy developer. Simple as that.

[ChiefJoJo]

For the life of me I can't figure out how the "liberals" all want to vote for funding this, against NHE, and for TTA rail while the "conservatives" want to vote against funding this, for NHE, and against TTA.

In a very general sense, Hillsborough St and TTA will encourange ped-friendly urban development focused around people and not the car, which is somehow considered a "liberal" issue. To be clear, I don't think anyone has said they necessarily are opposed to NHE, they are opposed to giving Kane $75M for a private parking deck for his development... and I agree with them. Let Kane fund NHE on his own just like NHW. Taliaferro, Isley and Craven appear to want to line the pockets of their developer friends (who fund their campaigns) at the expense of taxpayers... not to mention, it appears they want to screw over Meeker/Stephenson/Crowder by holding up "their" Hillsborough St project (see the BTB article linked above) when NCSU, the CACs, the H-St partnership, and 90+% of local businesses support movng forward with an endorsed plan that began in 1999.

When the council rubber stamps nearly EVERY development that come across their agenda, why is this such a huge fight when everyone realizes that these improvements are probably 10 years over due???

[plus2]

^ Hillsborough St is not a private development project, but a public project. TTA is public too. I imagine "conservatives" are more hesistant to approve public projects that use public tax money. I think that is short-sided and wrong headed, especially when business interests (in both Hillsborough St and TTA) want the public investment.

Liberals are (slightly) less likely to approve private development because they believe the government should have a place in land-use planning. Conservatives think the market should dictate and government should get out of the way.

[ncwebguy]

From the WRAL and BTB articles I noticed:

Raleigh Planning Director Mitch Silver has backed off the roundabout proposal, saying there needs to be more of a comprehensive approach to revitalize the street.

[ChiefJoJo]

Not sure if anyone has seen this article... it seems the roundabout project is finished. Ncwebguy, you make some good points, but I really am frustrated that we have come all this way after 7 years and still nothing is happening. I would say with regard to Silver's comments, it's worth noting that the city's previous planning director lives in this area, is on the partnership and supports this project, so it would be misleading to say that the experts are not on board here.

Either way, I suppose it's back to the drawing board.

[RaleighRob]

Either way, I suppose it's back to the drawing board.

If the remaining businesses on the strip can survive that long.

[Spatula]

The thing is roundabouts probably aren't good for Hillsborough. The street gets used as a thoroughfare because it's good at that. With traffic slowed to a crawl on Hillsborough, it'll create a wall blocking transportation to downtown.

Roundabouts are highway intersections. They're not pedestrian friendly. Other countries generally use roundabouts AS highway intersections.

The best thing for Hillsborough would be to fix the sidewalk in areas where it's bad, and get rid of all the overhead power lines. While we're at it, replacing the current traffic lights with the type of cantilever lights downtown would be excellent.

[RaleighRob]

I guess the best hope for them now will be to get a Glenwood South-style renovation. Powerlines grounded, new lamposts, improved sidewalks, better planters, updated signage, repave the street (so freakin bumpy now it rattles my civic). Update the crosswalks. We've got the bond money still....let's spend it soon before it's too late.

Oh, and lower the speedlimit to 25 like Franklin Street is....and enforce it.

And of course, start getting more foot/bike police there to make pedestrians feel safer at night.

Edited January 14, 2007 by RaleighRob

[ncwebguy]

Was there a conflict of image problem for former planning director/area resident George Chapman to push harder for the roundabout project to the council?

I was at the CAC meeting that was one of his last official acts as planning director. There he said he was glad that Raleigh didn't try to charge as little in taxes as possible, but then have nothing to show for it. Also, it didn't throw a lot of money at every project that came to the city either. For the most part, the city tries to get the biggest bang for its buck. Investments in Capital Blvd, Glenwood South, Fayetville Street, etc. have attracted many times their cost in additonal devleopment in the city.

The neighborhood has wanted to have its cake and eat it too for too long. They shut down all the bars by getting ABC to stop issuing new permits. They took away on-street parking north of Hillsborough Street for non-residents. They denied the owner of Studio I and II to build a parking lot for his theater because he showed non-mainstream movies. They don't support the businesses on Hillsbrough Street or the students that actually do. And then wonder why no one wants to visit.

The city spent a lot of money to clean up the area in the 80s, but there are no sings of that now. The McDonalds moved to Cameron Village, the planters no longer hold trees, and the sidewalks haven't been cleaned in a while, if ever.

Maybe the parking on the south side of the street should be 24/7 and metered, with the money going to cleaning up and patroling the area with the meter money. Space for the CAT and TTA buses to stop would be no-parking zones, but the rest could be parking. With a little realignment of State's campus, the spaces could be diagonal instead of parallel, adding more spaces. Also, where does the currently collected parking meter revenue go? It isn't reinvested in the area!

I hope the council spends the bond money on enhaning the area via burying power lines, fixing the sidewalk, and improving the street lights. Well-defined cross-walks (more than a couple of cans of paint!) at Horne and other intersections would be a start to address the safety concerns in the area.

If NC State is willing to give up part of the North Hall lot, put a four lane traffic circle in at the Logan Court intersection. This will calm traffic some and let people know they are entering a district. Partner with NC State to build a deck in the rest of the North Hall lot (hidden behind shops/apartments) to add parking in the area.

"We have to have Hillsborough Street as a major thoroughfare," Councilwoman Jessie Taliaferro said. "It has to move people in and out of downtown."

This is a poor excuse. We have Western Blvd. and Wade Ave to move people in and out of downtown to the west, to say nothing of South Saunders, Capital Blvd, Glenwood Avenue (north of Peace), and New Bern Avenue. Those are major thoroufares. Hillsborough Street is a neighborhood street that has a high traffic count because a lot of people use single occupant vehicles to get to NC State, not because they are going from downtown to 40 or 440.

[Spatula]

This is a poor excuse. We have Western Blvd. and Wade Ave to move people in and out of downtown to the west, to say nothing of South Saunders, Capital Blvd, Glenwood Avenue (north of Peace), and New Bern Avenue. Those are major thoroufares. Hillsborough Street is a neighborhood street that has a high traffic count because a lot of people use single occupant vehicles to get to NC State, not because they are going from downtown to 40 or 440.

Wade feeds into Glenwood, and Western feeds into South Saunders. So really without Hillsborough you have Capital from the northeast, Glenwood from the northwest, and Saunders from the south. Anyone going directly east into downtown is going to take Hillsborough.

It has a high traffic count because it has a lot of business all along its length, and it's the primary connection between NCSU and downtown.

I'd say that's a pretty good excuse to keep it a thoroughfare street.

[Jones_]

Wade feeds into Glenwood, and Western feeds into South Saunders. So really without Hillsborough you have Capital from the northeast, Glenwood from the northwest, and Saunders from the south. Anyone going directly east into downtown is going to take Hillsborough.

It has a high traffic count because it has a lot of business all along its length, and it's the primary connection between NCSU and downtown.

I'd say that's a pretty good excuse to keep it a thoroughfare street.

Funny this is coming up now.....in recent hurries from the fairgrounds area to downtown( girlfriends house to my house) I have chosen both Wade and Western but never Hillsborough. Western goes accross downtown and changes names of course to MLK and WAde dumps to Capital not Glenwood. Hillsborough does not function as a major inbound artery, but mostly serves NC State students and employees. Anybody starting out west of Gorman/Faircloth is going to choose Wade or Western when heading downtown.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Jones133

[cophead567]

^ agreed. not that i represent all drivers, but when coming home from my parents place in cary to downtown, i either take wade to capital or western to saunders. less lights and faster pace of traffic on those roads then hillsborough st.

[sax184]

Isley:

But Isley called roundabouts a "drastic" fix. Glenwood South worked, he said, because there was so much private investment.

"I don't think it's the right plan," he said. "If anyone pushed a button to cross the street, it stops traffic."

Taliaferro:

But Councilwoman Jessie Taliaferro said she could not find another example of a roundabout in a place with on-street parking. She believes they won't work in a compact, urban spot and that Raleigh can't afford to lose a major route to slow traffic.

"We have to have Hillsborough Street as a major thoroughfare," she said. "It has to move people in and out of downtown."

The mindset of Taliaferro and Isley is ironclad. If you don't move around in a car, you don't exist.

Edited January 16, 2007 by transitman